Difference between HC3, HC5, and HC7?? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 13 Old 03-10-2007, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
brfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I was wondering what are the differences in Between the HC3, HC5, and the HC7.

I am looking at getting an HD camcorder for the upcoming youth football season and want to get all my research in. I would be using it on a tripod and was also wondering if the odd design of the HV-10 is comfortable for tripod use.

Please do not get into the whole Canon is better than Sony and vice-versa, but which brand seems to do action video the best?

I will be downloading to PC and rendering to DVD so I want to get a DVC camcorder.
brfish is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 13 Old 03-11-2007, 10:49 PM
 
lobato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA, CA
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


I am looking at getting an HD camcorder for the upcoming youth football season and want to get all my research in. I would be using it on a tripod and was also wondering if the odd design of the HV-10 is comfortable for tripod use.

I think the HV10 works great on a tripod. I use a small-sized tripod and get really good results. (My PC is on the verge of a breakdown so I can't post clips.) With a proper tripod, I'm sure results will be even better!


Quote:


Please do not get into the whole Canon is better than Sony and vice-versa, but which brand seems to do action video the best?

It's really difficult to not talk about the two companies because the products represent the thinking and strategies of both firms. I think overall image quality is better on the Canon HV10 and sports look great on it. Check out this thread on another board.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87654

It's a recording taken with an HV10 of a paintball session. Editing aside, I think the quality is fantastic! Take a look for yourself!
lobato is offline  
post #3 of 13 Old 03-12-2007, 05:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
blackbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 675
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I thought the HV10 was a bottom loader.... a bit of a pain on a tripod.

And BTW:
Those JPG's in the link have a bit of jagged breakup on the edges... is this the cam or just the JPG's??

I have a couple of frame grabs from the HC3 on another board. Bare in mind that I grabbed these from a hd dvd disk and not directly form the cam... but IMO they still look clearer. The first one (frame grab 5) is at a bitrate of19000... the second one (frame grab 11 is at 25000. Both JPG's have been reduced to 640x480

(Scroll down towards the bottom of the thread and look for the screen name BLINK3TIMES)

http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/thread/205076.aspx
blackbill is offline  
post #4 of 13 Old 03-12-2007, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
brfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I see that it is a bottom loader...That may kill it for me. With the camcorder I have now, I have to remove it from the tripod and then take off the tripod attachment to change tapes...I HATE that. When is the new HV-20 really supposed to come out? I see it is a completely different animal physically.

I am not swayed too much by the little video quality differences between the Sonys and the Canons, either will be miles above the JVC GR-D33U I am using now. I really want to ensure they will do high speed sport video well and wanted to know exactly what the differences are between the 3 Sonys.
brfish is offline  
post #5 of 13 Old 03-12-2007, 09:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
blackbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 675
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well... it's not hard to work out the PHYSICAL differences anyway between the HC3 and the HC7... just do a google for the specs and compare.... Off the top of my head, bigger cmos, better lux, optical stab. instead of electronic, and real slo mo shooting, mic input... and a few others

What I want to see is some serious reviews of the HC7 and see if it's worth upgrading from the HC3.

The HV20 I think, is out for me. It's got 24p ability, but I don't see myself using that very often as compared to the slo mo shooting of the HC7 and the infrared night vision.... something that comes in REAL handy for me. I can always do a 24p conversion on an editor... won't be real... but it comes out pretty close. The infrared however just cannot be done (obviously) in the edit phase.
blackbill is offline  
post #6 of 13 Old 03-12-2007, 10:43 AM
Advanced Member
 
Wesley5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 656
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbill View Post

...
I have a couple of frame grabs from the HC3 on another board. Bare in mind that I grabbed these from a hd dvd disk and not directly form the cam...

Interesting, did you transfer your HC3 footage to a PC and then author it in HD DVD format and burn to a red-laser DVD or HD DVD ? Was any conversion needed to make HDV stream compliant with HD DVD format ? Thanks.
Wesley5 is offline  
post #7 of 13 Old 03-12-2007, 11:05 AM
Advanced Member
 
blackbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 675
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley5 View Post

Interesting, did you transfer your HC3 footage to a PC and then author it in HD DVD format and burn to a red-laser DVD or HD DVD ? Was any conversion needed to make HDV stream compliant with HD DVD format ? Thanks.

The footage was shot with the HC3 then captured to PC with Sony Vegas. It was also edited in Vegas. It was then exported to file as a M2V/WAV, which was imported by Pinnacle studio 10.7

Pinnacle studio 10.7 has the ability to create what is called HYBRID HD DVD's. It is a REAL hd dvd that is burned to normal dvd media with a normal burner. Once the burn has been done however, it can only be played back in the Toshiba hi def player. The disk is written as UDF2.5 and although a normal burner can write UDF2.5, it can not read it. With Pinnacle you can also include things like DD5.1 sound, chapters, menus...etc, just like a normal dvd. You can do the capture/edit with studio as well... but Vegas does a better job.
blackbill is offline  
post #8 of 13 Old 03-12-2007, 01:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
Wesley5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 656
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbill View Post

The footage was shot with the HC3 then captured to PC with Sony Vegas. It was also edited in Vegas. It was then exported to file as a M2V/WAV, which was imported by Pinnacle studio 10.7

Pinnacle studio 10.7 has the ability to create what is called HYBRID HD DVD's. It is a REAL hd dvd that is burned to normal dvd media with a normal burner. Once the burn has been done however, it can only be played back in the Toshiba hi def player. The disk is written as UDF2.5 and although a normal burner can write UDF2.5, it can not read it. With Pinnacle you can also include things like DD5.1 sound, chapters, menus...etc, just like a normal dvd. You can do the capture/edit with studio as well... but Vegas does a better job.

Thanks. I guess they call it hybrid HD DVD to avoid confusion with regular HD DVD, but HD DVD (BR too) format actually does include red laser DVD (DVD9).

It's good to know HDV stream can be played in a HD DVD player. Was there any re-encoding involved ? How much footage can a DVD5 disc store, 15-20 minutes ?
Wesley5 is offline  
post #9 of 13 Old 03-12-2007, 02:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
blackbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 675
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley5 View Post


It's good to know HDV stream can be played in a HD DVD player.

It can ONLY be played in a HD player. As I said, it is written as UDF2.5 so after the burn your computer will not be able to read it. If you try... XP will see it as RAW and will report the disk as being empty.

You can get about 20 minutes on a single layer disk at a bit rate of 25000. But I use Double layer disks and I drop the bit rate a little to 19000 (it's pretty hard to tell the diff between 19000 and 25000 when viewed)... this gives me about 50 minutes with just enough room for a DD5.1 sound track.


There is a certain amount of re encoding that is done. Vegas captures as a M2T... transitions... effects... overlays... titling....etc are added, then the whole thing is rendered over to a M2V. When studio imports, renders and burns to disk, it does it pretty much on a SMARTRENDER basis so there is almost no rendering done here. The final output is a pretty high quality HD DVD.

The disk is set up almost the same as a normal dvd, but it has a HVDVD_TS folder instead of a video_ts folder and it will contain EVO files instead of VOB files. The IFO files and such are the same.
blackbill is offline  
post #10 of 13 Old 03-12-2007, 06:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AndyN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,004
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Looking for some advice and sorry for the newbie questions. I was trying to wait for the Canon HV20 but our newborn decided to be 6 weeks early. So I couldn't wait anymore and opted for the HC7.

I've never used a camcorder so I'm using the auto Easy setting. I noticed outdoors well lit shots are great but in lower light (indoor without lights on and only a few windows open) I noticed a lot of grain/noise. Does anyone have any pointers to get better indoor shots?

Also I noticed w/ HD things get out of focus very easily. Any tips on how to maintain focus?

Also if I wanted to burn to a regular dvd in an HD DVD format as noted above by blackbill I'd need both Sony's Vegas and Pinnacle Studio? Any suggestions for best place to purchase these two programs? And just to make sure, these will also play on the HDDVD drive for the X360, right? Does anyone know if the files could be streamed to the x360?

Lastly, how does one dump these files to the ps3? Just connect via USB? Does the PS3 play the avchd file natively? meaning could I just save onto a dedicated hard drive and hook it up to the PS3 and play all the files? How about streaming to the PS3, possible?

Sorry for any repetitive questions.

Thanks,

Andy
AndyN is offline  
post #11 of 13 Old 03-13-2007, 05:08 AM
Advanced Member
 
blackbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 675
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well, first I think a lot of what you are dealing with is getting used to a new cam, figuring out its limits, its pluses and minuses.. which takes time. Second... you have it in easy mode which to a large extent generalizes all the settings. When you get better with the cam you can customize you settings to match the surroundings.

Auto-focus, even with high end cams takes time. If you shoot one thing and swing the cam around really fast and shoot at another, you will see the first part of the new shot as being unfocused... nothing you can do about this... it happens with all auto focus systems....The sensor has to pickup the new distance, that distance must be transformed into motor movement and the lens has to move to the correct position.... AND.... the more expensive the lens, then the greater its capacity for depth of field... which means more adjustment is needed for smaller movements of the cam. So you need to get used to the speed at which you can move the cam around without losing focus... This holds true for speed of zooming as well.
These focusing systems are also extremely sensitive. when shooting through a window for example, a lot of time the system will end up focusing on something it picks up on the glass instead of focusing THROUGH it.

HD cams in general do require more light than a dv cam, and this tends to be a bit of a sore spot with them... shooting in low light will always produce less than perfect shots. If you shoot in low light often then you should get yourself a lamp for your cam... it will improve the situation.


If you wish to create Hybrid hd dvd's you don't NEED Sony Vegas... I use it because it's a higher quality editor which allows you to do some pretty amazing things. But Pinnacle studio 10.7 is capable of capture/edit/author and disk burning, all within the same program. To do HD DVD's you need to purchase the program as well as the hd dvd plugin at an extra $50.

The hybrid hd dvd does NOT work in the Xbox 360 Although there are other programs that offer what is called 'Xbox compatibility mode", it is suggested that you do not use it. Pinnacle has discussed the situation with Microsoft and Microsoft WILL be issuing upgrade patches to the x360 so that they are equivalent to that of the Toshiba players. If you use a system with "xbox compatibility mode" then you may end up with disks that are unusable in BOTH the Toshiba player and xbox when the patch comes.

Your last question about PS3 I will avoid since I do not have one... there are others that are better suited to answer this one. I will say however that you may be a bit confused... As far as I know, you can not use USB for downloading video... the firewire connect is for this. The USB is for downloading still shots only. The HC7 cam also does not use AVCHD... it uses a mpeg2 compression to tape

Pinnacle xbox360 quote:
Quote:


We believe this will be addressed Microsoft's Xbox 360 update. Unfortunately, there's no indication of when this will be available.

We're still looking for anything we could possibly do from our end to make this work, but as of right now, we're waiting for the Xbox 360 update as well.

Signature:Mikel Z
SQA Manager
Pinnacle Systems, Inc.

blackbill is offline  
post #12 of 13 Old 03-13-2007, 08:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
AndyN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,004
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbill View Post

The hybrid hd dvd does NOT work in the Xbox 360 Although there are other programs that offer what is called 'Xbox compatibility mode", it is suggested that you do not use it. Pinnacle has discussed the situation with Microsoft and Microsoft WILL be issuing upgrade patches to the x360 so that they are equivalent to that of the Toshiba players. If you use a system with "xbox compatibility mode" then you may end up with disks that are unusable in BOTH the Toshiba player and xbox when the patch comes.

Your last question about PS3 I will avoid since I do not have one... there are others that are better suited to answer this one. I will say however that you may be a bit confused... As far as I know, you can not use USB for downloading video... the firewire connect is for this. The USB is for downloading still shots only. The HC7 cam also does not use AVCHD... it uses a mpeg2 compression to tape

Pinnacle xbox360 quote:

blackbill,

Thanks for the info. You're correct I was/am confused. Just found out that the USB does not allow for downloading video as you noted. So my PS3 route is out. My current solution is to record, import, then rename the .m2t files as .ts files and stream via Media Center to my xbox 360s. This way I don't have to lug around the camera inside the house if I want to watch my videos in the bedroom or on the pj.

My other problem is the limited software that came with the HC7. I noticed it "bookmarks" every time I stop and restart recording. Then upon file transfer it creates small files consisting of the times between each stop and start. So 10 minutes may equal multiple files instead of one 10 minute file. Does pinnacle allow me to join these files? If so its the answer to my problems. Edit and join in Pinnacle, save as .ts file, and stream over a networked hard drive to my x360's. These guys don't make it easy being on the bleeding edge of technology.

Thanks again blackbill.
AndyN is offline  
post #13 of 13 Old 03-13-2007, 10:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
blackbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 675
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I can't give you a sure fire answer to that.... I don't *THINK* the HC7 has ever been tested on studio. But if it captures like any other cam in its class then studio will no have a problem.

Studio captures as a separate video/ audio file (M2V/WAV) and you can selct the type of capture: Scene detect... each time you turn the cam off/on will be denoted as a scene, or no split... the video is one with no split, or timed scene split where each scene is a preset time interval. The scenes do go together on the time line and come out as one video if you wish... the scenes are simply denoted to allow you an easier time to install transitions from one scene or to install an effect of some ing if you wish.
blackbill is offline  
Reply Camcorders

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off