Big confusion re HV20 and 24p - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 03:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll start off by admitting I'm a novice and have not had as much experience as you guys have with video.

But why the confusion? It's not only in my mind. I've scoured the web and see there's confusion rampant there.

Does the HV20 record 1920x1080p at 25p (or 24p) or not? Some folks seem to be implying that HD is 1440x1080p and that 1920 is interpolated through, perhaps, non-square pixels.

Other folks seem to be implying that 24p is in a 60i framework. If it is, then it's not 24p. Simple as that.

As far as I can see from Canon's web site, the HV20 has a 3mp sensor. In practical terms it's a bit less. The specs on the Sony Web Site quote 2.76mp in 4:3 format and 2.07mp in 16:9 ratio.

Since HD is primarily 16:9 aspect ratio, and since the Canon HV20 sensor has 1920x1080 pixels in widescreen mode, and 1920x14440 pixels in 4:3 mode, why the heck should it (or how can it) record in 1440x1080 mode? It sure doesn't make sense to me. So please enlighten me!
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post #2 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 04:19 AM
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It is recorded in 1440x1080 with non-square pixels. It is a question of bandwidth and balancing priorities. (btw, most tape based recording methods use the same technique)

And it can record 24p, it is just stored in a 60i stream (likewise, 25p is recorded but stored as 50i). It is done that way to work with existing standards.
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post #3 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 05:14 AM
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The canon records true 1920X1080 AT THE SENSOR but you will not get this through firewire (the normal method of file transfer). There are certain standards that must be adhered to... and that is the HDV standard, which is 1440x1080 (it can also be 720p) Firewire is restricted to not more than the HDV standard (which is what the television industry has gone with.. So what ever a consumer camcorder can produce doesn't really matter because in the end it must adhere to the HDV standard (1080/60i). So 24p is watchable just so long as it is stuck in what one could describe as a HDV container. The television industry has gone with the HDV standard (1440x1080) because it's actually 4:3 and not 16:9... it simply has elongated pixels. This meshes better with the old NTSC 4:3 technology... which of course is still in use.

Once you've captured your file to computer... you're free to manipulate that file in any way that you want. When people talk about true 24p coming from the canon, what they are basically talking about is manipulting the file on computer by removing the 24p from the HDV container (layman's terms).

It can sort of be compared to watching a hollywood wide screen movie on TV (with the black bars). NTSC is 4:3... so how do you watch a true Hollywood piture? By placing it INSIDE the 4:3 ntsc standard (a rectangle inside a box and blank out the areas that don't get used.... thus.... the black bars)

Some people are looking at the 24p as a bit of a cheat because it's being shown within a 60i frame.... but that's what you're going to get with a consumer camcorder that must adhere to certain HDV standards. . It does however allow for certain advantages... such as better low light capacity.
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post #4 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 05:19 AM
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The 24p that the Canon HV20 provides (as well as some other consumer camcorders) will require that you find some sort of software that will extract the 24p without too many interlace artifacts (since it is stored in an interlace format 60i). This will require a lot of time and money (especially if you don't own the newest dual core processor machines).

You just can't shoot with the HV20 and expect your m2t file to show up in Vegas 7 as a progressive 23.976 file, cause it won't. In fact, Vegas can't even properly convert that file to 24p (at least "7d" won't). It may be included in future updates, but not yet.

24p from the Canon HV20 is not that easy, IMO. Oh, but it's there...
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post #5 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 06:30 AM
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I've edited your post blackbill, let's not start that discussion in yet another thread.
Great explanation otherwise...

It's not 24p right out of the camera, but it IS 24p. You just need a little help getting it there...

Kyser

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post #6 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigVid View Post

The 24p that the Canon HV20 provides (as well as some other consumer camcorders) will require that you find some sort of software that will extract the 24p without too many interlace artifacts (since it is stored in an interlace format 60i). This will require a lot of time and money (especially if you don't own the newest dual core processor machines).

You just can't shoot with the HV20 and expect your m2t file to show up in Vegas 7 as a progressive 23.976 file, cause it won't. In fact, Vegas can't even properly convert that file to 24p (at least "7d" won't). It may be included in future updates, but not yet.

24p from the Canon HV20 is not that easy, IMO. Oh, but it's there...

What?! I thought that since the Canon *is* shooting in 24p, it would be as easy as performing a reverse telecine (ivtc, pullup, whatever you want to call it) to get at the "true" 24p. Why would there be artifacts? (This is not rhetorical. I'm a novice who *thought* I understood what 24p on this Canon was going to be.) Isn't the video captured at a rate of 24 progressive frames and simply stored in the 60i format????

Chris
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post #7 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latedate View Post

What?! I thought that since the Canon *is* shooting in 24p, it would be as easy as performing a reverse telecine (ivtc, pullup, whatever you want to call it) to get at the "true" 24p. Why would there be artifacts? (This is not rhetorical. I'm a novice who *thought* I understood what 24p on this Canon was going to be.) Isn't the video captured at a rate of 24 progressive frames and simply stored in the 60i format????

Chris

New on the camcorder scene myself I believe that all of what you have stated is true. I know for a fact that all you have to do is remove the pulldown.

This has already been done by a number of users from the first day the HV20 arrived on the scene.

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post #8 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigVid View Post


You just can't shoot with the HV20 and expect your m2t file to show up in Vegas 7 as a progressive 23.976 file, cause it won't. In fact, Vegas can't even properly convert that file to 24p (at least "7d" won't). It may be included in future updates, but not yet.

24p from the Canon HV20 is not that easy, IMO. Oh, but it's there...

I had a little trouble with this statement so I posed the question on the vegas board:

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/for...8207&Replies=2
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post #9 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 07:49 AM
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Bill, you posted this...
Quote:


(sorry... I should clarify... I already know that the canon can not produce TRUE 24p... it has to adhere to certain HDV standards, so it is said that it places the 24p within a 60i frame.... so is it true that vegas has not got the ability to remove the 24p from the 60i)

And the answer was this...
Quote:


err... well for NTSC, most standards are 24p within a 60i stream (25p in a 50i stream)

The Canon can shoot 24p and it does it that same way many other high end cameras do.

What is your issue with this??

Kyser

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post #10 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kysersose View Post

Bill, you posted this...

And the answer was this...


The Canon can shoot 24p and it does it that same way many other high end cameras do.

What is your issue with this??

Kyser

I have no interest in offending... my words are posted simply as a reflection that it is a consumer camcorder, so that you can't get ACTUAL 24p out of the cam without some work. This is a FACT, and is not intended to offend those that are sensitive to the issue.
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post #11 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 08:07 AM
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Actually, the FACT of the matter is that you can get TRUE 24p out of this camera quite easily.

Or do you disagree? You basically just stated above that Vegas would have no issues with that. We have already proved that After Effect can do it quite easily, as well as many other NLE's.

The problem here is that you like to throw around words like "gimmick" and "can not produce TRUE 24p". That is a joke! There is nothing untrue about the full resolution 24p footage that I'm seeing from the HV20.

This is your LAST warning on the subject. I'm done playing games.

Kyser

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post #12 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 08:17 AM
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Well Kyser... I think you may be a little too sensitive to the issue.

People are buying this cam with the idea that they can transfer 24p off the cam, onto your computer.... you can't. You have to use an editor at an additional expense to reveal the actual 24p. IT DOES SHOOT 24p... you just can't offload it from the cam as such.

But if it bothers you that much, I will certainly edit my words on the other board... What would you like me to say?
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post #13 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 08:27 AM
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Nope, no need to edit your words on another board. Just watch your words here... I've had to edit the word "Gimmick" from you already, even after being warned to let it go.

This quote...
Quote:


IT DOES SHOOT 24p...

is just fine. It records it the same way many other high end cameras do. It is the NTSC standard.

And it does it for a very nice price.

As I said, this will be my last warning to you here.

Don't expect another one.

PS- If I was the only one who felt this way about your posts I would let it go. As you yourself have mentioned, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Kyser

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post #14 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 08:37 AM
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Those who wish to know more about 24p and how cameras capture it... only need to look here. http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording

That sums it up for ALL 24p recording. Even the higher end cameras...

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post #15 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 08:58 AM
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It seems the people who have the best luck from extracting 24p from the 60i "Canon wrapper", are ones who either use VLC PLAYER for viewing immediately @ 720p or (on an Apple) MPEG Streamclip, which requires multiple steps to allow the true 24p to emerge from the Canon HV20 file.

It is my understanding that Vegas 7 either has or will have shortly the ability to extract 24p from Sony's V1U 24p camcorder. However, Canon's implimentation of 24p is a little different, and due to competitive reasons, may or may not be included if Vegas 7 updates. We'll just have to see.
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post #16 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigVid View Post

It seems the people who have the best luck from extracting 24p from the 60i "Canon wrapper", are ones who either use VLC PLAYER for viewing immediately @ 720p

Which is FREE btw.
For those who think you need an expensive NLE to get good footage out of this, you don't!

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post #17 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 09:31 AM
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After some web searching I found something to indicate that the CineForm plugin in Vegas 7 may offer the ability to remove the pulldown in HV20 24p RAW files. I have not explored the option yet, so I'll have to see.

However, I have to admit, I am not a strong avocate of 24p Video (at this point). It has many fine professional uses, but for home use 60i is good enough (for me), so I for one am off the subject. YMMV...
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post #18 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigVid View Post


However, I have to admit, I am not a strong avocate of 24p Video (at this point). It has many fine professional uses, but for home use 60i is good enough (for me), so I for one am off the subject. YMMV...

I'm of the same opinion.... but we'll see.... my HV20 will be here (I hope) by the end of the week.
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post #19 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I see this is a bit of a sore issue. Perhaps the main thing about 24p is the following extract from Kyser's link above, which explains matters fairly clearly.

Quote:
Extracting a true 24p clip from a 60i recording simply requires copying the raw data for the red, yellow, magenta, and blue frames into a new 24p file, skipping the green frame altogether. No decompression or recompression is required, and all recovered 24p frames retain first-generation quality. No clipping or other loss is incurred; you are still working with all your frames in their first-generation glory in 24p.

If this is true, it sort of eases my mind. However, Kyser, I downloaded the second clip from the "HV20 24p RAW Files" thread (thanks for the demo) and played it back on Windows Media player 11, viewed on my Sony CRT monitor set to 1600x1200 resolution, its highest, and it seemed very choppy to say the least.

When the diaphanous curtains move in the breeze, they are not smooth at all. This entire 100MB clip looks like a about 20 or 30 individual still frames.

I'm searching for an explanation and all I can think of is my video card does not have a 72hz refresh rate. It's either 70Hz or 75 Hz, so the 24 fps are out of sync with my monitor's refresh rate. Would this be the right explanation?

I opened the file in Sony Vegas 7 to check the details and, sure enough, it's described as 1920x1080x24p . 29.970 fps progressive.

ps. I've just changed the refresh rate of my monitor to 60Hz. The clip is still very choppy, so maybe the refresh rate has no bearing on this issue. What's going on?
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post #20 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barryz View Post


When the diaphanous curtains move in the breeze, they are not smooth at all. This entire 100MB clip looks like a about 20 or 30 individual still frames.

Extremely smooth on my PC. Are you talking about when they barely sway in the breeze? The one with the flowers near the end?

Plays perfectly fine on mine. A couple a jerky pans but that's all.

BTW, I would suggest to those not interested in 24p filming should not be posting in a 24p thread. 24p is for people who want a real film-look to their work.

Kyser

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post #21 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kysersose View Post

Extremely smooth on my PC. Are you talking about when they barely sway in the breeze? The one with the flowers near the end?
Kyser

Kyser,
No I'm talking about the first view of the table with the figurines. The curtains on the right appear to be swaying in the breeze. That's the only indication of real movement that I noticed, that didn't appear to be due to panning movement.
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post #22 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barryz View Post

Kyser,
No I'm talking about the first view of the table with the figurines. The curtains on the right appear to be swaying in the breeze. That's the only indication of real movement that I noticed, that didn't appear to be due to panning movement.

They sway quite smoothly on my PC, so do the tassels on the left hand side by the edge of the curtain.
If you can't make out that movement clearly... then something is definitely wrong on your end.

Kyser

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post #23 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 10:02 AM
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PS- I'm at 60hz as well.

Is it a RAM issue?

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post #24 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kysersose View Post

PS- I'm at 60hz as well.

Is it a RAM issue?

I'll try displaying the clip on another computer. Perhaps it's something to do with my 64 bit OS. I think I might have made a mistake opting for this system. I was attracted by Win XP 64bit Edition's ability to handle more RAM.... But it's now late in Australia so that's a job for tomorrow.
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post #25 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigVid View Post

...However, I have to admit, I am not a strong avocate of 24p Video (at this point). It has many fine professional uses, but for home use 60i is good enough (for me), so I for one am off the subject. YMMV...

I will take 24p over 60i, I really dislike interlacing artifacts, just wish they could have a 30p format, which would go much better with 60Hz TVs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kysersose View Post

...PS- I'm at 60hz as well.

Unless you use a CRT monitor, LCD monitors do not really refresh, the pixels stay on unless instructed by the computer to change. So 24p should be smooth However, if one uses a fixed refresh rate CRT monitor (say at 60Hz), then it would just behave like most TVs, judder would be noticeable.
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post #26 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley5 View Post

Unless you use a CRT monitor, LCD monitors do not really refresh, the pixels stay on unless instructed by the computer to change. So 24p should be smooth However, if one uses a fixed refresh rate CRT monitor (say at 60Hz), then it would just behave like most TVs, judder would be noticeable.

I believe I looked at it on both of my monitors. One is an LCD, The other, CRT.

I'll have to double check later...

Thanks,

Kyser

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post #27 of 73 Old 03-26-2007, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kysersose View Post

I believe I looked at it on both of my monitors. One is an LCD, The other, CRT...
Kyser

If your CRT is multi-scan capable and can do 72 hz, then 24p should be smooth too.
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post #28 of 73 Old 03-27-2007, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I'm still confused about the performance of Kyser's 24p video clip. I've tried it on 3 computers and the playback is different on each computer, in Windows media Player.

On my most powerful computer, Pentium 3GHz dual core, 6Gb of RAM and Win XP 64 bit, it's very choppy in all respects, including the panning. On my lesser computer, a Pentium 3GHz with 4GB of RAM and Win XP Pro 32 bit, it's much better. At least the diaphanous curtains move smoothly. The panning is still choppy, but smaller chops.

On my fairly modern Dell laptop, modern enough to have a DVD burner, there's no movement at all of the curtains. The panning chops are much greater and the general impression is of a series of 20 or so different still images.

Perhaps the message here is, if you spend $1000 on an HV20, then you'll probably need to spend at least $3000 on a 1920x1080p display (if you haven't already got one) and another $2000 on a budget state-of-the-art computer if you want to edit the video.
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post #29 of 73 Old 03-27-2007, 08:09 AM
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I'm not sure what your issues are but I'm watching it on a Toshiba Satellite laptop with a 1.6ghz processor, 1280 x 800 display, and 2 GB RAM. Not all that expensive...

Latest Windows Media Player.

Plays fine on mine... really. The curtains move just as they they should with a slight breeze.

EDIT: Feel free to ask me anything else about what I have on this laptop, maybe we can figure out what the issue is.

Kyser

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post #30 of 73 Old 03-27-2007, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barryz View Post

Well, I'm still confused about the performance of Kyser's 24p video clip. I've tried it on 3 computers and the playback is different on each computer, in Windows media Player.

On my most powerful computer, Pentium 3GHz dual core, 6Gb of RAM and Win XP 64 bit, it's very choppy in all respects, including the panning. On my lesser computer, a Pentium 3GHz with 4GB of RAM and Win XP Pro 32 bit, it's much better. At least the diaphanous curtains move smoothly. The panning is still choppy, but smaller chops.

On my fairly modern Dell laptop, modern enough to have a DVD burner, there's no movement at all of the curtains. The panning chops are much greater and the general impression is of a series of 20 or so different still images.

Perhaps the message here is, if you spend $1000 on an HV20, then you'll probably need to spend at least $3000 on a 1920x1080p display (if you haven't already got one) and another $2000 on a budget state-of-the-art computer if you want to edit the video.

My personal experience with 24p is that it will tend to play a bit choppy... especially with faster scenes and faster pans... it's a slower frame rate... it's only natural. I have a pretty fast computer myself and I see the same result as you.

The 24p coming out of the Canon can not (and should not) be compared to the 24p on film... the camcorderinfo review says that in black and white. having said that though... one would kind of wonder what it can be used for... since you can also render a 60i over to 24p on an editor timeline... but the 24p shoot ability (according to the review and others) DOES lend itself to better low light conditions... which is a plus with any camera.
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