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post #1 of 49 Old 04-09-2007, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I have had my HV20 for about a week now. I guess all and all I digg it... I'm not getting any warm and fuzzies over the build quality, but the picture quality picks up the slack.

I crunched a couple samples for people researching... FYI, you will need a pretty decent machine for fluid playback.

This first clip was shot in PF24 mode (a bit of a chore removing pulldown):

http://blip.tv/file/get/Flyingscott-HV20Test777.mov (~23mb)

Ok, this next sample is kinda cool. I was watching the masters in 1080i, so I decided to video it in 1080i (I know, very geeky). It actually worked ok, no refresh issues.

The Masters was such nice HD...!

(this was crunched to 720 and I removed the interlacing)

http://blip.tv/file/get/Flyingscott-...ithHV20309.mov (~18mb)

The camera is a good buy... Keep in mind its still a CONSUMER camera. If you set your expectations as such, you should be happy.

IMHO, there isn't another camera that comes close to competing at that price range (I paid 1,099 + 7.00 shipping - newegg).

Enjoy!
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post #2 of 49 Old 04-09-2007, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingscott View Post

I have had my HV20 for about a week now. I guess all and all I digg it... I'm not getting any warm and fuzzies over the build quality, but the picture quality picks up the slack.

I crunched a couple samples for people researching... FYI, you will need a pretty decent machine for fluid playback.

This first clip was shot in PF24 mode (a bit of a chore removing pulldown):

http://blip.tv/file/get/Flyingscott-HV20Test777.mov (~23mb)

Ok, this next sample is kinda cool. I was watching the masters in 1080i, so I decided to video it in 1080i (I know, very geeky). It actually worked ok, no refresh issues.

The Masters was such nice HD...!

(this was crunched to 720 and I removed the interlacing)

http://blip.tv/file/get/Flyingscott-...ithHV20309.mov (~18mb)

The camera is a good buy... Keep in mind its still a CONSUMER camera. If you set your expectations as such, you should be happy.

IMHO, there isn't another camera that comes close to competing at that price range (I paid 1,099 + 7.00 shipping - newegg).

Enjoy!



Just curious, why did you resize to 1280 x 720? To save disk space? Still looks good though.
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post #3 of 49 Old 04-09-2007, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah... plus, I was getting complaints from friends that they had a hard time resizing for their monitors. I said, "What... doesn't everybody have a 24" monitor now?"

I figured you can get the gist at 720.

Thanks
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post #4 of 49 Old 04-10-2007, 02:46 AM
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Thank you flyingscott for posting some clips for us.

Tony
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post #5 of 49 Old 04-10-2007, 05:38 AM
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Scott:

Jody at Roberts has is for $999. I should be getting mine today. I was holding off waiting for the JVC but early reports bomb it.

http://www.robertsimaging.com/search.jsp

Tim
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post #6 of 49 Old 04-10-2007, 07:56 AM
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Wen I go that site I get a message forbidden to use?
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post #7 of 49 Old 04-10-2007, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Just right click the link and Save Target As...
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post #8 of 49 Old 04-10-2007, 03:57 PM
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That worked..thanks..nice clips! I have a 2GHZ dual core..plays fine.
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post #9 of 49 Old 04-10-2007, 04:41 PM
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powerbook g4 over here.. need to upgrade this badboy, then get the hv20 ... :sigh:

PSN and XBox Live gamertag: JonesJohnson

Format Neutrality = Best
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post #10 of 49 Old 04-10-2007, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, HD is demanding... I'm running on a 24" Core 2 Duo iMac, 2GB ram.

I edit all my video in Final Cut pro off a 500gb external drive (FireWire 800).

I wanted a reason to upgrade to the new MacPro, but my machine handles everything fine.

If anyone wants to see a specific test, I would be more than happy to shoot a sample.
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post #11 of 49 Old 04-11-2007, 08:34 AM
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flyingscott,

These look great. Somewhat off topic, but what settings are you using when you export the video to Quicktime? I've been playing around with my HV20, which I love, but I'm not all that happy with the results I'm getting when I export to Quicktime.

Any insight into the settings you used would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ken
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post #12 of 49 Old 04-11-2007, 10:56 AM
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flyingscott,

Thanks for doing that. What NLE did you use to create those? FCP? What encoder did you use?
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post #13 of 49 Old 04-11-2007, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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kkrista & dancinbear, hopefully this answers both questions...

I use Final Cut Studio for my editor. Here are the basic steps I took to get from camera to what you see: (This is for the plant video, because it was shot in PF24 mode)

1. Capture video into FCP, keeping in mind that my sequence settings were as follows:
- 1080i/60 (from the easy setup)
- Apple Intermediate Codec (this will require rendering when placed in the timeline)

A little background as to why I did this. BTW... this is the way I understand it, or I should say, they way I got it to work... I am in no way a professional, nor claim this is absolute.

HDV standard format is 1080i/60. When you shoot 1080p/24 with the HV20, it gets set into a 1080i/60 wrapper. This leaves another step, removing the 3/2 pull down. You can do this in Cinema tools by running a Reverse Telecine... But, Cinema Tools is pickey, and using AIC was the only way I could get Cinema tools to like the clip.

2. You need to set the cadence... (I think cadence is the proper term) the way the HV20 lays the frames down is p-p-p-i-i, and to run the Reverse Telecine properly, you have to start and end the clip at the beginning of the cadence. When you have the video in the timeline and you go frame by frame, it is very easy to see the two interlaced frames. Simply back up to the start of the progressive frames and do a cut (control+v).

3. Export a self-contained quicktime movie. (ref movie may work?)

4. Open clip with Cinema Tools

5. Click Rev Telecine...

6. The only thing I changes was the Fields. Everything I saw in different posts say to use _CD_, but that did not work for me. I used DD, which worked.

7. Save off the .rev file

8. Now you have some options, for the plant movie, I opened the .rev with quicktime pro and exported using the following options:
- Video Settings
- Video Size


For more info on compression setting go to here:
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/tutorials/h264.html


I beleive there is a bug with h.264 and CoreImage which results in washed out / unsaturated playback. What is even more weird is that it plays back fine within firefox on the mac (looks washed in safari). I really don't know what the problem is, all I know is that it exist. Can anyone elaborate? (I'm not trying to create a wandering post)

I have read post about changing your color space before export, it didn't help me. Adding a colorsync filter did not work either, although I did get different results.

I have also tried using Compressor and crunching a .mp4, which looked good... no wash out. But I have only casually tested and can not say conclusively that it works.

It is very annoying to think that apple knows this bug exits and doesn't publish a fix. Or if they have a fix/workaround, they sure have been good about hiding it.

Anyhow, hope this helps!

I need some tips on white balance, my colors seem washed at times when connected to my plasma via hdmi. I always manually white balance as auto REALLY looks bad. It seems to only happen in lower light. Any tips would be great.

Later,

Scott
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post #14 of 49 Old 04-12-2007, 01:06 PM
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flyingscott,

Thanks for the info. The settings worked well for me once I figured out that I had another problem. Since I wasn't using the 24p mode, I thought I would be okay using iMovie HD (just an interim solution for my home movies while I wait to see if there's a new version of Final Cut coming out of NAB); I was wrong. Once I tried a different workflow (DVHSCap --> MPEG Streamclip) and used the export settings you used I got significantly better results.

Thanks again for the help.

Ken
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post #15 of 49 Old 04-12-2007, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool, I'm glad this helped.

I hope they come out with a new version that address a lot of the workarounds. I guess this is the price we pay for being bleeding edge.

Scott
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post #16 of 49 Old 04-13-2007, 10:22 AM
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Just so I'm clear, the HV20 can shoot 1080p video (not 1080i) at 24fps, but you need to do some software adjustments to get it to work correctly?
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post #17 of 49 Old 04-13-2007, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiebrock View Post

Just so I'm clear, the HV20 can shoot 1080p video (not 1080i) at 24fps, but you need to do some software adjustments to get it to work correctly?

No.

The HV20 shoots 1080i NOT p. It shoots 24p WITHIN a 60i frame. You can use software to remove the 24p from the 1080i container.

You can also use software to convert te 1080i over to p... but you can do that with any cam that shoots 1080i

There is no consumer cam that I am aware of that shoot 1080p.
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post #18 of 49 Old 04-13-2007, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not an expert or anything, but... its not JUST interlaced video (in PF24).

When you shoot in PF24 mode and you look at the video frame by frame, there are 3 progressive frames and 2 interlaced (p-p-p-i-i). When you shoot in standard HDV mode (1080i/60), every frame is interlaced.

Blackbill is correct in that it does not write 1080 progressive to the tape, but rather it sits in the format "wrapper". The way I understand it is that HDV format is 1080i, no matter what camera you have.

But I don't think simply de-interlacing 1080i/60 video is the same as running a Rev Telecine on the PF24 (p-p-p-i-i) frames.

Bottom line is that all this stuff is very new, so post processing includes a few more hoops.
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post #19 of 49 Old 04-13-2007, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingscott View Post

But I don't think simply de-interlacing 1080i/60 video is the same as running a Rev Telecine on the PF24 (p-p-p-i-i) frames.

You are correct. Deinterlacing is not the same thing as inverse telecine (also called reverse pulldown). Do not deinterlace the 24p footage Simply perform ivtc.

If you shoot in 24p, then you are actually shooting 24 progressive (complete) frames per second. Even though, it is stored in a 1080/60i format (p-p-p-i-i) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progres...egmented_Frame, you can retreive the 24 progressive frames via ivtc. However, if you shoot in 1080i/60, you are shooting 60 half-frames (fields) per second. This means you are never shooting a complete frame at any one given time period. You can use software to *approximate* 30 complete frames per second (from the 60 half-frames) using one of several deinterlacing methods. But, they will never be true progressive frames.
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post #20 of 49 Old 04-14-2007, 10:33 AM
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My HV20 performed like a king this weekend, I have shots in a football stadium that look outstanding!
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post #21 of 49 Old 04-14-2007, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't tease us... lets see some!
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post #22 of 49 Old 04-14-2007, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

My HV20 performed like a king this weekend, I have shots in a football stadium that look outstanding!

Did you shoot 60i or 24p?
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post #23 of 49 Old 04-14-2007, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latedate View Post

You are correct. Deinterlacing is not the same thing as inverse telecine (also called reverse pulldown). Do not deinterlace the 24p footage Simply perform ivtc.

If you shoot in 24p, then you are actually shooting 24 progressive (complete) frames per second. Even though, it is stored in a 1080/60i format (p-p-p-i-i) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progres...egmented_Frame, you can retreive the 24 progressive frames via ivtc. However, if you shoot in 1080i/60, you are shooting 60 half-frames (fields) per second. This means you are never shooting a complete frame at any one given time period. You can use software to *approximate* 30 complete frames per second (from the 60 half-frames) using one of several deinterlacing methods. But, they will never be true progressive frames.


If you shoot 24 progressive frames, why is that considered 1080i and not 1080p? If you can retrieve it, and then play it back on a HDTV, wouldn't it be 1080p?
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post #24 of 49 Old 04-14-2007, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiebrock View Post

If you shoot 24 progressive frames, why is that considered 1080i and not 1080p? If you can retrieve it, and then play it back on a HDTV, wouldn't it be 1080p?

Because it's recorded in a 60i time frame. Once you post-process you can then obtain true 1080p/24fps ( I think)
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post #25 of 49 Old 04-21-2007, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latedate View Post

You are correct. Deinterlacing is not the same thing as inverse telecine (also called reverse pulldown). Do not deinterlace the 24p footage Simply perform ivtc.

If you shoot in 24p, then you are actually shooting 24 progressive (complete) frames per second. Even though, it is stored in a 1080/60i format (p-p-p-i-i) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progres...egmented_Frame, you can retreive the 24 progressive frames via ivtc. However, if you shoot in 1080i/60, you are shooting 60 half-frames (fields) per second. This means you are never shooting a complete frame at any one given time period. You can use software to *approximate* 30 complete frames per second (from the 60 half-frames) using one of several deinterlacing methods. But, they will never be true progressive frames.

i've read page after page after page of this acronym soup and am convinced i'll never understand video. i've been a still photographer for over 4 decades and only relatively recently (i'm still kicking myself for the delay) gone digital. the last video i shot was a brief class project in high school using regular 8 and some 16mm and i haven't touched it since.

are you in fact saying that no matter whether you shoot in 'regular' (30fps) mode or in 'cine' (24fps) mode, the 'footage' will look exactly the same once transferred to your computer (run through imovie for example) unless you do the 'unwrap' voodoo to it?

i'm scratching my head. this can't be the case because then there would be no need whatsover for the 30fps mode--just shoot everything in 24fps mode and convert when needed in post-processing.

the analogy i come up with from still cams in when your camera embeds a jpeg file inside the raw file. there is virtually no penalty for leaving the camera set to this mode as opposed to raw only and you can use the jpeg if needed.

i'm sure i'm missing something really significant here.

the reason i'm following this thread is that i'm trying to decide whether it might be worth upgrading my recently purchased hv10 to the hv20 and the three main criteria seem to be: form factor, hdmi port and cine mode.

actually, i seem to be one of the few to like the compact form factor of the hv10 (i have small hands). hdmi would be nice but i'm using all of my hdmi ports on my tv already and i have at least 5 free component ports. so that only leaves cine mode as the deciding factor.

thanks!

/guy

We were somewhere around the Withywindle on the edge of the Old Forest when the drugs began to take hold. ~Hunter S. Tolkien
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post #26 of 49 Old 04-21-2007, 08:09 AM
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[quote=gteague]i've read page after page after page of this acronym soup and am convinced i'll never understand video. i've been a still photographer for over 4 decades and only relatively recently (i'm still kicking myself for the delay) gone digital. the last video i shot was a brief class project in high school using regular 8 and some 16mm and i haven't touched it since.

are you in fact saying that no matter whether you shoot in 'regular' (30fps) mode or in 'cine' (24fps) mode, the 'footage' will look exactly the same once transferred to your computer (run through imovie for example) unless you do the 'unwrap' voodoo to it?

i'm scratching my head. this can't be the case because then there would be no need whatsover for the 30fps mode--just shoot everything in 24fps mode and convert when needed in post-processing.

the analogy i come up with from still cams in when your camera embeds a jpeg file inside the raw file. there is virtually no penalty for leaving the camera set to this mode as opposed to raw only and you can use the jpeg if needed.

i'm sure i'm missing something really significant here.

the reason i'm following this thread is that i'm trying to decide whether it might be worth upgrading my recently purchased hv10 to the hv20 and the three main criteria seem to be: form factor, hdmi port and cine mode.

actually, i seem to be one of the few to like the compact form factor of the hv10 (i have small hands). hdmi would be nice but i'm using all of my hdmi ports on my tv already and i have at least 5 free component ports. so that only leaves cine mode as the deciding factor.

thanks!

Here is your extra HDMI port for $25. I just order one.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...ormat=2&style=
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post #27 of 49 Old 04-21-2007, 01:42 PM
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I will try and give you an idea of the 24P in a 60i shell scenario (I too am a photographer (not pro) but I went digital maybe 5-6 years ago... actually more since I had purchased a Canon Elura that did still photos in 30P (or 60i) in 1999).

Basically as you probably know, a television frame is made up of lines (even and odd - each called a field) that the TV displays 60 times per second. Each even then odd combination makes up 1 frame (1 even field + 1 odd field = 1 Frame). A half-frame is being drawn to the screen every 60th of a second.

Because the frame is made up of 2 fields something that moves will actually not be in the same place in the second field so if you freeze an interlaced frame you will see jaggies wherever there was movement in the frame. Here is an example of a photo taken from my Canon Elura from 1 interlaced frame.
http://www.pbase.com/mkaplan/image/7...8/original.jpg

The interesting thing about my Elura was that it was one of the earliest consumer cameras to offer a 30P mode. It could actually take a full frame in one shot instead of 2 interlaced fields. That would mean that there would be no movement so you would have a clear sharp picture without the jaggies.

Ok so far? Hopefully yes. Now TV or normal video is shot at 30FPS (Frames Per Second). Movies are shot on film (or at least most still are). Of course a movie frame is the equivalent to a progressive frame as there are no lines so no jaggies. Movies however are shot at 24 FPS not 30 FPS. What Canon is doing is offering a 24P mode so that it will be closer to a movie theatre type film. It also offers a Cine Mode which changes the contrast/saturation to give it more of a film look.

BUT (ah, the big but... you knew it was coming...) the HV20 does not shoot with film but with a TV/Video format. It therefore must output a signal that a TV can understand. There are video standards that have to be met. One of those current standards is that the signal is made up of 60 fields or 30 frames. To keep that standard Canon had to come up with a way to put those 24p frames in the 60i standard. For 30p that is easy... 2 frames for every field but for 24p it just does not fit easily. (Listed below (the first one) is a good explanation of how it is stored and why). Your analogy
Quote:
the analogy i come up with from still cams in when your camera embeds a jpeg file inside the raw file. there is virtually no penalty for leaving the camera set to this mode as opposed to raw only and you can use the jpeg if needed.[/

is somewhat similar. The program that is looking at the JPG knows where and how it is stored so it can read the JPG within the RAW. With 24p in 60i it is just not as simple because 24 does not go into 60 evenly. Due to this the processing software needs to know how the frames are stores. You must then 'pull down' the 24 frames from the 60i container (remove the 24 and throw away the rest). At that point though you are left with a true 24P. Most editing programs or viewers now don't know how to do this properly yet so you will be watching the 60i version of the 24p recording.

I personally have not yet had the time to try this but hope to get some time within the nest few weeks to play around.

I am sure there are a few inaccuracies and wordings but I hope you can at least get a better idea to this.

Here are some resources to read...
Here is a link to a page that explains the way 24p is stored in the 60i format, why and how it is extracted or played.
Here is an article called "The Big Picture - Interlaced vs. Progressive, Fields vs. Frames, 3:2 Pulldown and Inverse Telecine".
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post #28 of 49 Old 04-21-2007, 03:11 PM
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while i agree that canon had to be able to output to televisions in 60i, i dont think this is the reason why they store 24p on the tape in the manner that they do.

they could have recorded the tape as a progressive DVD is recorded (that is, each progressive frame is stored as two interlaced fields.) then there is some flexibility based on whether you are outputting to a progressive display or a traditional interlaced one. canon could have included the circuitry in the video output logic to do the conversion from the progressive source on the tape to whatever display they are driving (60i or 24p or 60p or what have you)

i think the bottom line is that the HDV format calls for 1440x1080@60i (actually i think 720p@60 is okay too). recording anything else onto the tape would not conform to the HDV format. its too bad they didnt define a 24p format for HDV...
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post #29 of 49 Old 04-21-2007, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkaplan View Post

You must then 'pull down' the 24 frames from the 60i container (remove the 24 and throw away the rest). At that point though you are left with a true 24P. Most editing programs or viewers now don't know how to do this properly yet so you will be watching the 60i version of the 24p recording.


Here are some resources to read...
Here is a link to a page that explains the way 24p is stored in the 60i format, why and how it is extracted or played.
Here is an article called "The Big Picture - Interlaced vs. Progressive, Fields vs. Frames, 3:2 Pulldown and Inverse Telecine".

many thanks for the detailed response and the links.

i've read about the 'pulldown' while updating my a/v system this month. it seems that this can be done automatically at the dvd player and at the tv when they detect 'film' or 'cinematic' material. which raises the interesting question of whether such a tv would detect and pulldown when the camera is used as a deck and played via the hdmi cable. or whether the new pioneer tv's which accept 24p input would detect it. from what you said, i'm guess this would not be the case as they would not be able to peer inside the 60i wrapper, right?

i think i've come to the conclusion that i have enough to learn about video already without throwing this complication into the works until i've absorbed a lot more information.

i think for now i'll hold onto the hv10 and let it teach me. i haven't seen anyone say the pq is much different than the hv20 and i do like the size and the form factor. when i listed the differences in my original post i left out one of the most important for some people: mic/hp jacks. i have one of the zoom h4 field recorders and that thing is an absolute marvel. i've been using it to record acoustic guitar and fiddle. so all i have to do is learn how to synchronize up an external soundtrack to my video. that should be an education in itself!

/guy

We were somewhere around the Withywindle on the edge of the Old Forest when the drugs began to take hold. ~Hunter S. Tolkien
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post #30 of 49 Old 04-21-2007, 09:58 PM
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Interesting... I ordered the H4 last week. I want to use it as an external mic for my HV20. I have heard great things about it and anxiously await it's delivery this week.

A couple of questions...
Can you use the 2 XLR inputs and mix with the built-in mics at the same time? I want to get the XLR feed off the board and capture the live audience with the mics.

I have heard some sound samples but in your opinion, are the built-in mics really REALLY good or after using them, wll I be disappointed and want better mics? This is more for recording a live show I do every year; mixed musical play and cabaret song and dance.
Thanks
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