Turning my back on the HD7 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 04-24-2007, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys.
I probably could've asked this question in another thread, but I didn't want to step on anyone's toes with my first post!

I had ordered the HD7, but after reading users reviews on this site, have decided to cancel and go with the HV20. It better be good!!

Anyways, this is my first camcorder, and had my mind set on an HDD unit, but will now go to hdv.

So, my question is....
On a miniDV tape, it states 60 mins, or whatever. Does this mean that you've 60 minutes recording in sd quality, and it's reduced significantly in hd mode, or is it simply 60 minutes is 60 minutes?
Genuinely can't get my head around it if it's 60 minutes no matter what!

Sorry if this seems like a dumb question, but we all have to start somewhere!

Thanks.
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post #2 of 21 Old 04-24-2007, 01:38 PM
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60 minutes no matter what Soarer. You'll get 60 minutes of pristine HD or 60 minutes of 'not-so-pristine' SD!
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post #3 of 21 Old 04-24-2007, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply Ken.

Can't understand how that works for the life of me, but if that's the way it is, that's the way it is.
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post #4 of 21 Old 04-24-2007, 02:14 PM
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The tape runs at the same speed, the same number of bits per second are used for both formats, but the HD video is substantially more compressed.
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post #5 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 03:24 AM - Thread Starter
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As easy as that!

Thanks Mark.
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post #6 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 06:51 AM
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You could also get 90 minutes in LP mode, but only for DV mode. HDV does not have an LP mode (at least from what I can find). I'd suggest buying some 80 minute tapes too (as opposed to just the 60 minute tapes). They're hard to find in stores, so you'd probably want to order online.
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post #7 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soarer View Post

Hi guys.
I probably could've asked this question in another thread, but I didn't want to step on anyone's toes with my first post!

I had ordered the HD7, but after reading users reviews on this site, have decided to cancel and go with the HV20. It better be good!!

Anyways, this is my first camcorder, and had my mind set on an HDD unit, but will now go to hdv.

So, my question is....
On a miniDV tape, it states 60 mins, or whatever. Does this mean that you've 60 minutes recording in sd quality, and it's reduced significantly in hd mode, or is it simply 60 minutes is 60 minutes?
Genuinely can't get my head around it if it's 60 minutes no matter what!

Sorry if this seems like a dumb question, but we all have to start somewhere!

Thanks.
Soarer.

Soarer, before you make that decision about the HV20, you should read my HDR-UX7 thread. Also look into the new Panasonic memory chip based cameras.
See my reasons why optical disk recording and solid state recording makes a lot more sense than any tape based product. Since the HV20 has such a large fan-boy base here, don't get persuaded so easily to "go with the crowd". Tape in general will be a dead medium in another couple of years. Take that from an insider in the industry.
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post #8 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the suggestion Luthyr.
I've ordered a 6 pack of 60min Sony Premium tapes, and I'll see how I get on with them. Figured they were a better otion to start with, as the 6 pack were 17, whereas 1x80min Sony Premium was 12!

If I could pick your brains again.....
I'm looking for a second battery, and a standalone charger for same. Any suggetions/recommendations? Direct links to sites would help, and I'm only learning as I'm going along!
Thanks.
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post #9 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 07:10 AM
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Think of tapes as an inexpensive, high capacity, rugged, LONG TERM (lasting 20-25 years) storage units. They have some very attractive properties that certainly cannot be matched by any hard drive.

As for solid state, perhaps it will dominate in a few years when cost-per-gigabyte has dropped dramatically. However, I spoke with a nationally respected film archivist (the guy who literally safeguards the original film canisters of Wizard of Oz, etc.) recently, and he called solid state recording "a disaster" from an archival perspective.

If you care about retaining your master footage for the long term, HDD and solid state are scary propositions.

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post #10 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 08:13 AM
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Sean, I've heard the same thing about DVDs...surprisingly so. It seems that some DVDs have their data mysteriously disappear or become corrupted over the long term. I'm not sure if that's 100% true, but a buddy of mine said he saw that in some technical publication.
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post #11 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Sean, I've heard the same thing about DVDs...surprisingly so. It seems that some DVDs have their data mysteriously disappear or become corrupted over the long term. I'm not sure if that's 100% true, but a buddy of mine said he saw that in some technical publication.

If I may step in, I saw data disappearing from my DVDs 5-6 years old.

My DV tapes are still good.

Good time to buy computers and computer parts: NEVER
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post #12 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 08:20 AM
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Yeah, I'll stick with cheap, dependable tape, thank you!
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post #13 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slothmeister View Post

Soarer, before you make that decision about the HV20, you should read my HDR-UX7 thread. Also look into the new Panasonic memory chip based cameras.
See my reasons why optical disk recording and solid state recording makes a lot more sense than any tape based product. Since the HV20 has such a large fan-boy base here, don't get persuaded so easily to "go with the crowd". Tape in general will be a dead medium in another couple of years. Take that from an insider in the industry.

Who's the "insider in the industry"?
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post #14 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soarer View Post

Thanks for the suggestion Luthyr.
I've ordered a 6 pack of 60min Sony Premium tapes, and I'll see how I get on with them. Figured they were a better otion to start with, as the 6 pack were 17, whereas 1x80min Sony Premium was 12!

If I could pick your brains again.....
I'm looking for a second battery, and a standalone charger for same. Any suggetions/recommendations? Direct links to sites would help, and I'm only learning as I'm going along!
Thanks.
Soarer.

1. never buy any tape longer than 63 min for HDV (even the manual states so)
2. I always buy 3rd party battery at sterlingtek.com For HV20 I bought a couple of NB-2L compatible batteries and a standalone charger.
3. for tapes I use Panasonic AMQ (Advance Master Quality) bought from eBay. 4 pack for US$ 30 (low shipping for small qty) or US$ 26 from bhphotovideo.com (but shipping is much higher for small qty purchase) -- I don't buy too many tapes at once so I go the eBay route.

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post #15 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 10:39 AM
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The tape is not the problem. Its the drive. Dirty heads, bad transports, sticky ejector mechanisms. I've got piles of Hi8, Mini DV tapes laying around and no working carmcorders to play them on. Solid state for me!
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post #16 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanQ View Post

The tape is not the problem. Its the drive. Dirty heads, bad transports, sticky ejector mechanisms. I've got piles of Hi8, Mini DV tapes laying around and no working carmcorders to play them on. Solid state for me!


At least, it's possible to play them on another camcorder (from which you can capture to computer). Sure, having to purchase another Hi8 camcorder just for playing old tapes isn't exactly ideal, but at least you have that option.

So, what happens if the hard drive (or backup DVDs) containing all of your "solid state" movies crashes (or is no longer readable)? Then what? You are hosed. You can pray that a disk forensic company can recover some of your files, but that is far from a guarantee and plan on spending thousands of dollars! Of course, you can create backups, implement RAID, etc., to protect your files, but that requires expertise, time, patience and extra money. I'm not saying solid state is bad; it just requires you to take adequate precautions (backups!).

FWIW, I have an HDV camera and I immediately capture all of my footage to computer. I do so with an external USB drive (with no backup). Eventually, external drives will get very cheap relative to the HiDef disk usage. But until then, I am taking my chances. If my external drive dies, I can always recapture all of my footage from tape. And if my camcorder is no longer able to play the tapes, then I have to purchase another HDV-compatible camcorder (Just make sure you record in SP mode!).
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post #17 of 21 Old 04-25-2007, 04:53 PM
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Let's put it simply... in car terms. The JVC is like a Toyota Prius, and the Canon HV-20 is like the Subaru WRX. The Canon flat-out outperforms the JVC, despite being smaller and cheaper. However the JVC will hold more cargo, needs to be refueled less frequently, and might make more sense for a family.

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post #18 of 21 Old 04-26-2007, 02:43 AM
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The archival qualities of tape are well known since the technology is so mature. Unfortunately DVDs are dye-based, so they fade just like photos. Interestingly, DVD-RW is much more archival, since the technology is different (not dye-based).

The biggest annoyance with tape is condensation on the tape-head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galileo2000 View Post

If I may step in, I saw data disappearing from my DVDs 5-6 years old.

My DV tapes are still good.


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post #19 of 21 Old 04-26-2007, 04:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Who'd have thought that little ol' me would cause such a discussion!

Thank's to all who've contributed.
I was/am interested in the HDD technology, as...
i) it seems gadgety, and I love gadgets
ii) I'd no interest in changing/carrying extra tapes.

But after reading reviews about HDV, I've changed my way of thinking.
HDD based camcorders are still in their infancy at the minute, so maybe I'll upgrade in the future.
But for the minute, I'll stick to the tried and trusted HDV.

@ imagic: Thanks for your analogy. I like my cars (my nickname should tell you that!), and would alway choose an Impreza WRX over a Prius. So HDV it is, I guess.

@ David Susilo: Thanks for the info on the tapes and the batteries. Could you tell me if this is the reight battery, and this is the right stand alone charger for the HV20?

Now, feel free to keep the HDV/HDD debate going. It makes for great reading for a novice like me!
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post #20 of 21 Old 04-26-2007, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soarer View Post


@ David Susilo: Thanks for the info on the tapes and the batteries. Could you tell me if this is the reight battery, and this is the right stand alone charger for the HV20?

Those are the ones! The battery there is equivalent in power to the supplied battery. If you want a more powerful battery, it's this one:


http://sterlingtek.com/cocabpba.html

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post #21 of 21 Old 04-26-2007, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again Dave!

Questions on the batteries.....

How long does the standard one last?

How much longer does the more powerful one last? 50%?

Does the more powerful one fit the unit ok, or is it loose/tight/stick out more than standard?

Is the more powerful one liable to damage the unit?

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