MPEG2 vs AVCHD - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 11-26-2007, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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quick question, i own a Sony HC3 HD video cam that records on miniDV at 1080i on mpeg4 format.

I haven been wanting to upgrade to a HHD HD Sony camera, and i was wondering which is the best HDD cam by sony?

hoiw does mpeg4 compare to AVCHD? is AVCHD better in quality? and why do the Sony cams record in 1440x1080 instead of 1920x1080? are there any sony video cams that record in 1920x1080?

and last, what are disadvantages of HDD HD videos cams?

im tired of copying from from miniDV in real-time, and i would like to be able to drag and drop videos from the HDD video cam to the PC to make my life easier.

thoughts?

thanks!
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post #2 of 25 Old 11-26-2007, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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no one? i just saw the Sony HDR-SR8 at the sony store and i would like to know how does it compare to the HC3. HC3 had a crap stabilizer since it was digital, but the SR8 is optical, which im assuming is better right? also, is the quality on the SR8 better than the HC3 due to the AVCHD format? thanks!
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post #3 of 25 Old 11-26-2007, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marwan View Post

im tired of copying from from miniDV in real-time, and i would like to be able to drag and drop videos from the HDD video cam to the PC to make my life easier.

Personally I think both HDV and AVCHD are terrible formats, so I can't help you with those - but you do appear to need to be told that importing AVCHD into something more editable is going to take far longer than realtime to do on most computers.
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post #4 of 25 Old 11-27-2007, 03:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khyron View Post

Personally I think both HDV and AVCHD are terrible formats, so I can't help you with those - but you do appear to need to be told that importing AVCHD into something more editable is going to take far longer than realtime to do on most computers.


are you talking about editing AVCHD takes too long, or moving AVCHD file from the camera to PC using USB will take a long time?

i really don't care about editing at this point.

also does the HDD camera appear as a removable drive once plugged to a PC using USB??
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post #5 of 25 Old 11-27-2007, 05:43 AM
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Hi marwan,

I own a Sony HDR-SR1 hard drive camcorder. When you plug the camera into the PC, the camera's drive does appear as a drive on your computer.

You can drag and drop if you want, but I would recommend using the Sony Picture Motion Browser software that comes with the camera.

The files on the camera get stored with sequential file names: 0001.mts, .0002.mts, etc. Sony's software renames the files with a date/time stamp and moves the extension to .m2ts.

The transfer of the files from the camcorder to the computer is amazingly fast with USB 2.0.

Every time you hit the "record" button on the camcorder, it creates a new file. It is very easy to find the scene you are looking for with the thumbnails.

Hope this is helpful,

Brady

Brady
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post #6 of 25 Old 11-27-2007, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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bbibb, so in terms of quality, which is better in picture quality? mpeg4 HD or AVCHD? also do HDD camers skip or are they shock proof?

i found the Sony SR8 at a local Sony storem it's and HD HDD camera with a 100GB HDD. they also have the SR7 with a 60Gb HDD. what do you think of them?

SR8: (100GB)
http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/14170/sony_hdrsr8/

SR7: (60Gb)
http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/14169/sony_hdrsr7/

im guess they're both the same, and that the SR7 is slightly smaller, which is a plus in my book.

but im concerned, do they record in 1920x1080 or 1440x1080 like my HC3?

thanks!
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post #7 of 25 Old 11-27-2007, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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sorry, do you know where i could find AVCHD video samples to make my purchase decision easier? thanks!
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post #8 of 25 Old 11-27-2007, 07:07 PM
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Hi marwan,

I have never used a camcorder that records in mpeg4, so I cannot compare the video quality.

The main difference between the SR7 and SR8 appears to be the size of the hard drive. How large a hard drive you need depends on how you manage your video files. When I am finished with a project, I quickly upload the video files to my computer and delete the files off the camera. I guess some people like to carry the videos around in their camera, which would require a larger hard drive.

I have never come close to filling up the hard drive on the SR1 (30 gig).

I can't remember what the resolution on the camera is. You might head to the Sony support website and download a manual.

If you need sample video clips, I think you may be able to find some on this forum: http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/index.php At the bottom, there is a section titles "Video Libraries".

Hope this is helpful.

Brady
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post #9 of 25 Old 11-27-2007, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marwan View Post

also do HDD camers skip or are they shock proof?

I have never seen my camera skip.

It does have some mechanism to stop the HD if the camera is dropped. I remember reading in the manual that you need to turn this control off if you are videoing a roller coaster ride.

Brady
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post #10 of 25 Old 11-28-2007, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
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awesome thanks. any idea on the native recording resolution? is it 1440x1080 or 1920x1080?
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post #11 of 25 Old 11-29-2007, 08:57 PM
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Hi marwan,

I just got home from a business trip and had a chance to check out the resolution of the video clips produced by Sony's HDR-SR1: they are 1440x1080.

Hope this is helpful.

Brady
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post #12 of 25 Old 11-30-2007, 04:48 AM
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I have the HC3, HV20, and the SR1.

Overall, I find the mpeg based cams better. The quality is pretty close between the AVCHD and mpeg, but the AVCHD breaks up a bit more on the faster pans.

Off loading to the computer is faster with the SR1 compared to the real time transfer of the HC3 and HV20, but then editing the AVCHD takes A LOT longer. You also suffer a bit more loss while rendering AVCHD because to date there is still no efficient way to "smart render" it.

Mpeg is much easier to work with, it can be smart rendered, and it's a pretty universal format.
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post #13 of 25 Old 11-30-2007, 11:19 AM
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Marwan, Ididn't want to wait further while AVCHD matures to be up in parity. In the meantime I would have wasted countless hours of memories not recorded in High Definition. I'm sure by the time AVCHD gets better price would be less of an issue.
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post #14 of 25 Old 07-29-2009, 10:38 PM
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Hello

I just got a JVC GZ-HD40
In the documentation it is said that it is beter to use MPEG CBR 1440 with Final Cut Pro, at JVC support they say the contrary and they say to use AVCHD and Imovie 9

What is the best format to use ?
I have FCP 5.1 , thinking to upgrade to FCP 7

Thanks in advance for your help

Cbhr
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post #15 of 25 Old 04-04-2010, 11:24 AM
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I also received a JVC GZ-HD30.

Hence, a similar question to cbhr:

In the documentation it is said that it is beter to use MPEG CBR 1440 with Final Cut Pro, at JVC support they say the contrary and they say to use AVCHD and Imovie 9.

What is the best format to use? I have the Final Cut Pro, Imovie 9 and Xilisoft Media Toolkit Ultimate 5.0.

Thanks in advance for your help.

inomics
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post #16 of 25 Old 04-05-2010, 11:16 AM
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I don't know what khyron is comparing AVCHD to, but I think it's a brilliant format. Certainly beats the older alternatives VHS-C, S-VHS, Hi-8 and Mini DV. It is also better than HDV. Partly because of the 1440x1080 resolution on HDV, and it's limited to 1080i. There are no true progressive modes supported. There is the tape glitch issue. Which someone always writes back and insists it's a non-issue, but I have master tapes on Mini-DV which I have only used to capture from. Recorded on once, played back twice at the most, and I have dropouts!!. Mpeg 2 also has more noticeable compression artifacts than AVCHD at the same bitrate. Suggesting MPEG 4 and MPEG 2 are crap puzzles me. You have to use RAW to bypass any of this type of compression, the file sizes are massive, and you would have to use a digital cine camera to get that. It is pointless even talking about those here.
As for the current comparison, go for AVCHD.
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post #17 of 25 Old 04-06-2010, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevypower View Post

[AVCHD]It is also better than HDV. Partly because of the 1440x1080 resolution on HDV, and it's limited to 1080i. There are no true progressive modes supported...As for the current comparison, go for AVCHD.

I agree with your recommendation to go AVCHD, but a minor correction. HDV does have 720p and 1440x1080p 23.976 progressive modes. (The first HDV camcorders were 1280x720.) So far, the only consumer camcorder supporting 1440x1080p 23.976 mode is the Canon HV-40. In this respect, AVCHD is on the same practical footing -- only the Canon HF-S21 line supports native 1080p24. All of Canon's AVCHD models support PF30 (which is is just as easy to edit as native 30p.) I wish all camcorder mfgs would support a 30p shooting-mode; makes youtube/vimeo distribution particularly easy (no need to deinterlace.)

(I find the whole somewhat ironic, as most of today's Digicams offer HD movie-modes @ 30p.)
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post #18 of 25 Old 04-06-2010, 10:23 PM
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Yeah I remember JVC bringing out the first HDV camcorder, which was 720p. Sony never supported that, except playback, and I wasn't sure if there were other HDV 720p models?
I hope we have some true 1080/60p formats soon. The whole 24p thing is a little over-rated. Even if I was shooting for cinema, I would be recording at 60p now if I could. Well 4K or 8K @ 60p would be even better
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post #19 of 25 Old 04-07-2010, 08:10 AM
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FWIW, both Sanyo and Panasonic already released consumer 1080p60 capable camcorders. They both had to go outside the AVCHD box to implement it, which says a lot about the latter since Panasonic is co-owner with Sony. To my knowledge, both are using MP4 as a container format, but retain similar video encoding characteristics (VBR H264 @ 24-30Mbps). I suspect that since Sony/Panasonic didn't rev up the AVCHD format yet, most camcorder makers will have to transition to MP4 or MOV as a container over the next year or two as they try to get 1080p60 in their camcorders to compete.

Either way, tape is dead and 1440x1080 CBR 25Mbps MPEG-2 is dead (when compared with the latest breed of camcorders with 4-gen 24-40Mbps VBR H.264 encoding algorithms).
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post #20 of 25 Old 04-07-2010, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevypower View Post

Yeah I remember JVC bringing out the first HDV camcorder, which was 720p. Sony never supported that, except playback, and I wasn't sure if there were other HDV 720p models?
I hope we have some true 1080/60p formats soon. The whole 24p thing is a little over-rated. Even if I was shooting for cinema, I would be recording at 60p now if I could. Well 4K or 8K @ 60p would be even better

JVC initial model was the only one. I wouldn't call HDV widely supporting 720p because of that one either.

Chevy, I think you're ready for Red when talking about 4K. I doubt we're going to see this switch for another 5 years on the consumer side.
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post #21 of 25 Old 04-07-2010, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjut View Post

JVC initial model was the only one. I wouldn't call HDV widely supporting 720p because of that one either.

Chevy, I think you're ready for Red when talking about 4K. I doubt we're going to see this switch for another 5 years on the consumer side.

I think you're right. The consumer version of 4K is QFHD (quad full HD) 2160x3840, and it looks amazing. But it will be a while, it may come after the 3D thing flops. I mean succeeds
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post #22 of 25 Old 04-07-2010, 10:04 AM
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Well... they do have to find a reason for us to upgrade our TVs and projectors, right?

How much bitrate do you think QFHD will need? Probably something like 80-100Mbps... that's going to be interesting to store at 44GB/hour. :/
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post #23 of 25 Old 04-07-2010, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbhr View Post

Hello

I just got a JVC GZ-HD40
In the documentation it is said that it is beter to use MPEG CBR 1440 with Final Cut Pro, at JVC support they say the contrary and they say to use AVCHD and Imovie 9

What is the best format to use ?
I have FCP 5.1 , thinking to upgrade to FCP 7

Thanks in advance for your help

Cbhr

Quote:
Originally Posted by inomics View Post

I also received a JVC GZ-HD30

Hence, a similar question to cbhr:

In the documentation it is said that it is beter to use MPEG CBR 1440 with Final Cut Pro, at JVC support they say the contrary and they say to use AVCHD and Imovie 9.

What is the best format to use? I have the Final Cut Pro, Imovie 9 and Xilisoft Media Toolkit Ultimate 5.0.

Thanks in advance for your help.

inomics

Hello,

My name is Chris. I work for JVC and would like to try and help.

The answer to both of your questions depends on the version of Final Cut that you are using. Also, the specific features of your JVC camcorder.

The most simple answer is that Apple Final Cut will support AVCHD if you have version 6.0.1 or higher and if you Mac has an Intel processor. The JVC connects to the Mac via USB. That is the best and easiest solution.

For older Macs (or older versions of Final Cut), selected JVC models with a Firewire (i.Link) connection could be used. In order to use the Firewire connection on those models, you need to record in the 1440CBR mode. Then you need to create a playlist with the scenes you wish to copy to the Mac. Then, you need to use the playlist dubbing mode which is detailed in the owner's manual. This takes a little more time, but is very workable.

This is a good alternate solution for the GZ-HD40, which has the necessary Firewire (i.Link) connection. It is not a good solution for the GZ-HD30--even though it does have the 1440CBR record mode, it does not have Firewire (i.Link).

One last note: This answer applies to models that JVC introduced during the 2008 model year, which represented our best solution for Apple at the time. Starting with the 2009 model year, and continuing with 2010, all JVC HD Everios record exclusively in the AVCHD format. JVC includes basic editing software for Windows, called Everio Media Browser. These AVCHD models also work great with the most recent versions of Pinnacle Studio and Adobe Premiere Elements as long as your Windows PC meets the minimum specs required by the software. In addition, these models work very nicely with virtually any recent Apple with an Intel processor and iMovie '08/'09 or Final Cut 6.0.1 or higher.

I hope this helps.

Chris
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post #24 of 25 Old 04-07-2010, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjut View Post

Well... they do have to find a reason for us to upgrade our TVs and projectors, right?

How much bitrate do you think QFHD will need? Probably something like 80-100Mbps... that's going to be interesting to store at 44GB/hour. :/

It could be anything. You could have standard def at 90mb/s like on DigiBeta, theoretically you could have it as high as you want.
Now, we see a lot of AVCHD 1080i as low as 9mb/s and as high as 24. With the same technology as AVC, you would probably want it 4 times higher than 1080p. So I would say something around 60-100mb/s.
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post #25 of 25 Old 04-08-2010, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khyron View Post

Personally I think both HDV and AVCHD are terrible formats, so I can't help you with those - but you do appear to need to be told that importing AVCHD into something more editable is going to take far longer than realtime to do on most computers.

I'm not sure I understand that comment. I move AVCHD files straight from the camcorder to a PC via USB, which is way faster than the old miniDV approach of having to play the video back in real time to capture it. Then I edit in AVCHD with an NLE, and I render in AVCHD. I know some people used to convert everything to an intermediate format for editing, but that is not a requirement with current editors and hardware, it's just a personal choice. Am I missing some aspect of what you were saying?
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