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post #1081 of 1227 Old 07-31-2014, 02:41 PM
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I'm old, but I'm slow. These days I just coach my 3rd grade daughter's team. Two achilles tendon ruptures and I don't jump like I used to.

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Well it sounds like you've got a handle on the overall design, especially with wkearney's help.

Regarding the LEDs, I'm switching just about everything over to LED and even swapped out some of the enclosed fixtures since a lot of LEDs aren't suitable to a closed fixture due to heat. I haven't had any issues with LEDs, even running a pair of 4" pucks (8w ea) at only 42% as normal max. Then again, I made sure to purchase all neutral dimmers/switches, which might have helped. I think that's a key point, which is to check to see if you have neutral wires at every switch.

Good luck!
I'm still in the early learning phase. I'm a fast learn and not afraid of new tech. I've been deep in home theater for 15 years and have Nest Thermostats and Protects in my house already. But this level of automation is a little trickier and needs complete wife approval and the ability to teach my son (who's special needs). He seemed to get around Wkearney99's house pretty well and spent some time on one hybrid keypad to see what the buttons did.

Neutral wires certainly seem to be the key and I'd have to think they were already installed in the key 3-way and 4-way installs my house already has. But I'm going to have to pull the wall plates to check, especially in the older wiring situations. Considering how much detail I put into the kitchen renovation, I can't believe I left the lighting to my contractor. It's also my luck that he's excellent and does outstanding work.

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post #1082 of 1227 Old 07-31-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by spiwrx View Post
FYI, for those of you that haven't figured it out yet the Pico (since 7.2 apparently) can now be configured to operate the CCO's on the VCRX. This was lacking prior and since the buttons are so tiny on the VCRX this makes a great simple & cheap add-on as a garage door opener button in the garage. Please take a minute to play with the programming as if you are doing multiple circuits on 1 pico you may want to un-check some of the default settings.
can I use any Pico for the VCRX?

I thought they were dedicated for lights or shades

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post #1083 of 1227 Old 07-31-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
can I use any Pico for the VCRX?

I thought they were dedicated for lights or shades

Apparently if you are using software version 7.2 or higher you can assign a regular pico (not a shade pico) to a VCRX.

we have successfully done it on version 7.6 & 7.7 recently

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post #1084 of 1227 Old 07-31-2014, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
No you don't have to renter, as I mentioned, the app builds upon itself. So how your RadioRa2 devices were entered in the first step will need to be understood as you go through the Design and Progeamming steps. An example is where a switch or keypad were installed and how you want them programmed, you'll need to identify the appropriate room and appropriate switch location. Plus, there are some advanced parameters on the initial configuration page that you'll want to be familiar with such as default light level.
Got it! Thanks. Richard

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post #1085 of 1227 Old 08-01-2014, 12:33 AM
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New install w/ LEDs & Picos

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Originally Posted by rapamatic View Post
Yeah, that's pretty much it (other than software controls like the lutron iphone app or third party like CQC)...

picos are pretty flexible - they can be wall mounted with a faceplate, put on a pedestal, etc..

You can also use a tabletop keypad if you don't want something on the wall...

what are you trying to accomplish?
Thanks for the help. I've got a couple of questions about my new install.

1) Trying to save money, so I want to use Picos in most locations for now, but want the option to upgrade to keypads later. My electrician suggested "running and capping romex behind the wallbox" for the pico, but I don't think he understood (and also I don't understand well) how the pico mounts to the wall. Does it involve cutting out the drywall, or fully surface mounted? Anyone have any suggestions to ease this kind of upgrade? How to install a pico in a wall box?

2) Trying to figure out the best way to dim my LEDs. It looks like my choices are the 6NA, the 10NA, or the 6CL, correct? A) Does the 10 watt minimum vs the 5 watt minimum in any way affect the minimum light output achievable by the dimmer/lamp combination? B) What's the best choice in dimmer for new construction? It kinda looks like the 6CL is targeted towards retrofit with the 2 wire feature, but I'll have neutrals installed so maybe I should use the 10NA with the lower 10 watt minimum, but then I'm missing out on the low-end-trim feature. Then again, that shouldn't be a problem with good LED lamps, right?

3) Does the 10NA allow more LED fixtures on a load? I'm guessing not since it's the inrush, not wattage, that necessitates the limit, but wanted to check.

4) Suggestions on LED lamps that work well with RadioRa2 dimmers? I'm sure this discussion has already happened, but it's not coming up in search. Can someone point me to it? Is it better to pick my dimmers first or my lamps first?

Thanks a ton!
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post #1086 of 1227 Old 08-01-2014, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tritium6 View Post
1) Trying to save money, so I want to use Picos in most locations for now, but want the option to upgrade to keypads later. My electrician suggested "running and capping romex behind the wallbox" for the pico, but I don't think he understood (and also I don't understand well) how the pico mounts to the wall. Does it involve cutting out the drywall, or fully surface mounted? Anyone have any suggestions to ease this kind of upgrade? How to install a pico in a wall box?
You can surface mount a pico or put it in a wallbox. The adapter that mounts it in a wallbox can also be used to surface mount it with a claro faceplate... you can also just mount it on the wall with no switchplate. Check out the pico sell sheet: http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocum..._SellSheet.pdf

To allow you to upgrade to a full keypad in the future, which needs a wallbox and power, I'd follow your electrician's advice and put the pico on top of a wallbox that is prewired with 110...

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Originally Posted by tritium6 View Post
2) Trying to figure out the best way to dim my LEDs. It looks like my choices are the 6NA, the 10NA, or the 6CL, correct? A) Does the 10 watt minimum vs the 5 watt minimum in any way affect the minimum light output achievable by the dimmer/lamp combination? B) What's the best choice in dimmer for new construction? It kinda looks like the 6CL is targeted towards retrofit with the 2 wire feature, but I'll have neutrals installed so maybe I should use the 10NA with the lower 10 watt minimum, but then I'm missing out on the low-end-trim feature. Then again, that shouldn't be a problem with good LED lamps, right?

3) Does the 10NA allow more LED fixtures on a load? I'm guessing not since it's the inrush, not wattage, that necessitates the limit, but wanted to check.

4) Suggestions on LED lamps that work well with RadioRa2 dimmers? I'm sure this discussion has already happened, but it's not coming up in search. Can someone point me to it? Is it better to pick my dimmers first or my lamps first?
I'm not an expert on this, since I don't like the way LEDs dim (the color temperature stays constant, even at low levels, unlike incandescent which takes on a pleasant yellow glow at low levels)... Lutron has very detailed spec sheets on how many different LED lights perform with their various dimmers.

It seems there is a lot of debate around the best dimmer... I've had people tell the the 10ND and other people tell me the 6NA... Both of those are about $50 (list price) more expensive than the 6CL... The 6CL should be able to handle a load as low as one LED bulb, so even though it doesn't have the neutral, minimum load shouldn't be an issue. Read back through here, i believe Paul posted fairly recently saying that he did some testing and the 6CL dimmed LEDs more nicely than the 6NA...

I'm doing retrofit and using mostly 6CL (even though I'm 90% incandescent), with the expectation that as LED tech matures, the 6CL will allow me to upgrade to LED...
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Last edited by rapamatic; 08-01-2014 at 07:31 AM. Reason: added sell sheet link
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post #1087 of 1227 Old 08-01-2014, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritium6 View Post
4) Suggestions on LED lamps that work well with RadioRa2 dimmers? I'm sure this discussion has already happened, but it's not coming up in search. Can someone point me to it? Is it better to pick my dimmers first or my lamps first?
I've had good luck selecting my LED bulbs and recessed lighting pucks by looking at reviews on HomeDepot.com. I haven't had any issues with the LEDs I've selected there that received many, good reviews. And if I did, I'd take them back and try others. So I would definitely get the dimmers first and worry about the lighting after.
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post #1088 of 1227 Old 08-01-2014, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapamatic View Post
I'm not an expert on this, since I don't like the way LEDs dim (the color temperature stays constant, even at low levels, unlike incandescent which takes on a pleasant yellow glow at low levels)... Lutron has very detailed spec sheets on how many different LED lights perform with their various dimmers.

It seems there is a lot of debate around the best dimmer... I've had people tell the the 10ND and other people tell me the 6NA... Both of those are about $50 (list price) more expensive than the 6CL... The 6CL should be able to handle a load as low as one LED bulb, so even though it doesn't have the neutral, minimum load shouldn't be an issue. Read back through here, i believe Paul posted fairly recently saying that he did some testing and the 6CL dimmed LEDs more nicely than the 6NA...

I'm doing retrofit and using mostly 6CL (even though I'm 90% incandescent), with the expectation that as LED tech matures, the 6CL will allow me to upgrade to LED...
Both Juno and Nora and probably some others I'm not aware of are starting to put out CT changing LED Retro's that warm as they dim. I have sample the Juno and Nora and both are impressive and obviously more expensive than the more readily available single CT version. I might wait for 2nd and 3rd generations of this technology. They are very new and wondering what kind of dimming problems they might bring about.

Just to clarify, I think the Dimming of the 6CL is slightly better (perceived) than the 6NA, in my own home and testing at work. But there are still many reasons the 6NA and 10ND are needed. These are basically backwards compatible. So if I'm quoting an average job, I will recommend they include 1 or the other or a couple of both, whether they need it or not, because you can always move things around if you have a problem with a particular light or lamp. Most of these jobs are 2k-5k so and extra $50 on a small job isn't the end of the world. You'll probably pay for that in frustration and shipping when you figure out they brand "XYZ" that is 1200lm you got at the big box store for $20 is buzzing and now you need one... (stepping off my soap box)

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post #1089 of 1227 Old 08-01-2014, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by spiwrx View Post
Both Juno and Nora and probably some others I'm not aware of are starting to put out CT changing LED Retro's that warm as they dim. I have sample the Juno and Nora and both are impressive and obviously more expensive than the more readily available single CT version. I might wait for 2nd and 3rd generations of this technology. They are very new and wondering what kind of dimming problems they might bring about.
Wow, I did not know about this... I will definitely keep an eye on it, sounds like a great product

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Originally Posted by spiwrx View Post
So if I'm quoting an average job, I will recommend they include 1 or the other or a couple of both, whether they need it or not, because you can always move things around if you have a problem with a particular light or lamp. Most of these jobs are 2k-5k so and extra $50 on a small job isn't the end of the world.
Good point - and for the record, Paul convinced me to put in a few 6NA on my first floor for just this reason and I have no regrets.
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post #1090 of 1227 Old 08-03-2014, 09:49 PM
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Thanks a bunch for the help. One more question - if I get an LED bulb that fits a low voltage fixture like an MR16, can I run that on a load with line voltage LED downlights? I'm guessing I can't. But does that mean that it would probably be ok on a load with other low voltage bulbs?
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post #1091 of 1227 Old 08-04-2014, 10:19 AM
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I have to swap out a 6CL for a 6NA, for dimming low-voltage LED in-cabinet puck lights (WAC HRLED87 x 6, EN-2460 Transformer).

AVS Member BradKas explained why: "The WAC power supplies require an ELV dimmer which dims on the trailing edge of the AC sine wave. The 6CL cannot do this as it dims on the leading edge. This is why it is flickering."

I haven't replaced the 6CL yet, so can't definitively confirm that the swap will fix.

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post #1092 of 1227 Old 08-04-2014, 11:00 AM
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Interesting feedback Neurorad...looking forward to your results. Thanks.
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post #1093 of 1227 Old 08-04-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tritium6 View Post
Thanks a bunch for the help. One more question - if I get an LED bulb that fits a low voltage fixture like an MR16, can I run that on a load with line voltage LED downlights? I'm guessing I can't. But does that mean that it would probably be ok on a load with other low voltage bulbs?
Yes, depending on the dimmer. We're on the RR2 thread and even the most basic RR2 6D dimmer is capable of mixed Inc. & MLV loads. You're asking about a LED MR16 but you are actually controlling a regular transformer on your LV can. The LED at this point doesn't really matter. If we were controlling a LED driver we would have more to talk about, and thats where the 6CL, 6NA and 10ND come in. Most all of the Lutron Dimmers are backwards compatible, but not all... (problems to look out for are MLV on ELV dimmers, though this usually works, Lutron says don't do it)

Things you will notice:
  • LED may light up slightly after regular MR16
  • LED may not dim at same rate or at all
  • LED will cut off and/or start to blink somewhere below 50% usually
  • LED may not turn on if dimmer is set really low
  • LED and Reg. MR16 will not dim at same rate (usually)
  • LED will remain same color, Reg. MR16 will get warmer as you dim.
If you are going to mix lamps and try and keep consistent color, you probably want a 2700k (or lower) lamp.



Also, if you haven't read through the thread, all the RR2 dimmers have a minimum load. Usually around 60watts for a 6D or 6CL and around 10watts for a neutral connected dimmer 6NA and 10ND.
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post #1094 of 1227 Old 08-04-2014, 04:00 PM
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I was thinking the minimum wattage of my 6 LED pucks (x 4.8 watts each, connected in parallel) wasn't enough, but I'm not an electrician, or lighting distributor. Whatever the reason, I'm fairly confident the 6NA will work fine, and I've already bought the color change kit for the 6CL to use it elsewhere.

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post #1095 of 1227 Old 08-04-2014, 07:26 PM
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Wow, great stuff. Thanks again.

Does anyone know if I can use the Picos from Staples with an RR2 system? They're marked "Caseta" but look identical to other Picos.

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The Pico® remote control is a convenient way to control Lutron Caseta™ Wireless dimmers. With the Pico you can turn lights on, off, raise or lower them from anywhere in the room. Use the "favorite" button to save your favorite light level. You can use the Pico as a handheld remote, mount it on a wall, or mount it on a tabletop pedestal. You can also control your lights with the Pico from the comfort of your car.

Requires the Staples Connect Hub, powered by Linksys
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post #1096 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Ramias View Post
Does anybody have a good source where I can buy Sivoia QS shades (or whatever they are called) that work with RA2?



I can install and program them myself. I don't need a decorator to come to my home.



I just need a place to buy them from. Looking to get the motorized drape/curtain system. I may buy my drape fabric elsewhere or I may buy Lutron.



Thanks



Sent from my Venue 8 Pro 5830 using Tapatalk
Have same question
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post #1097 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post
I have to swap out a 6CL for a 6NA, for dimming low-voltage LED in-cabinet puck lights (WAC HRLED87 x 6, EN-2460 Transformer).

AVS Member BradKas explained why: "The WAC power supplies require an ELV dimmer which dims on the trailing edge of the AC sine wave. The 6CL cannot do this as it dims on the leading edge. This is why it is flickering."

I haven't replaced the 6CL yet, so can't definitively confirm that the swap will fix.
Yes, and update your software. Depending on your version of the software you may have to configure the 6NA to Trailing edge (I think Lutron calls reverse phase). There was a glitch in a previous version(7.0? Corrected in 7.1). If you are current 7.6 or 7.7 it should set them to "Auto-Detect". If you're on the wrong version it defaults to forward phase I don't know if this is configurable in the software I think it's a manual APM.
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post #1098 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tritium6 View Post
Wow, great stuff. Thanks again.

Does anyone know if I can use the Picos from Staples with an RR2 system? They're marked "Caseta" but look identical to other Picos.
As far as I know all the Pico's are the same but you can only use/program them to one system type. So you couldn't use them for both Caseta and RR2 at the same time.

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post #1099 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 02:18 PM
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As far as I know all the Pico's are the same but you can only use/program them to one system type. So you couldn't use them for both Caseta and RR2 at the same time.
Well picos are transmit only so you can't really "program" them other than to set what frequency they transmit at. So 2 systems on the same frequency that can both hear a pico can both respond to it and would not be aware of one another.
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Well picos are transmit only so you can't really "program" them other than to set what frequency they transmit at. So 2 systems on the same frequency that can both hear a pico can both respond to it and would not be aware of one another.
I'm not an expert, but I imagine when you activate a pico it may change or synchronize its signal so that when you activate it with one system it would no longer work with another.

Think of a basic garage door opener. Its a transmit-only device, and when you sync it with one garage door opener it no longer works with another (obviously ignoring openers that have multiple buttons for multiple garage doors)
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post #1101 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 03:07 PM
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Well picos are transmit only so you can't really "program" them other than to set what frequency they transmit at. So 2 systems on the same frequency that can both hear a pico can both respond to it and would not be aware of one another.
Poor choice of words. I should have said "pair" or "pairing". I have not tried it personally, but the Lutron Engineer at my training said you cannot "pair" it to multiple systems at once. Theoretically I think you may be right, but why would you mix systems anyway...

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post #1102 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapamatic View Post
I'm not an expert, but I imagine when you activate a pico it may change or synchronize its signal so that when you activate it with one system it would no longer work with another.

Think of a basic garage door opener. Its a transmit-only device, and when you sync it with one garage door opener it no longer works with another (obviously ignoring openers that have multiple buttons for multiple garage doors)
I suppose that is true if the remote is a rolling code device and has a special sequence or button for programming. But in that case you could just program both receivers simultaneously.
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Originally Posted by spiwrx View Post
Poor choice of words. I should have said "pair" or "pairing". I have not tried it personally, but the Lutron Engineer at my training said you cannot "pair" it to multiple systems at once. Theoretically I think you may be right, but why would you mix systems anyway...
The only reason would be to save money.
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post #1104 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 04:15 PM
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I suppose that is true if the remote is a rolling code device and has a special sequence or button for programming. But in that case you could just program both receivers simultaneously.
To make a pico (or any control) work with RadioRa2 (and I assume caseta, but I have no experience there), the pico has to be activated. My guess is that activation process is where the rolling code/pairing happens.

I don't think you could simultaneously activate a pico under two different systems. I imagine as soon as you activated it under RadioRa2, it would lose its pairing with caseta, and vice-versa.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapamatic View Post
To make a pico (or any control) work with RadioRa2 (and I assume caseta, but I have no experience there), the pico has to be activated. My guess is that activation process is where the rolling code/pairing happens.

I don't think you could simultaneously activate a pico under two different systems. I imagine as soon as you activated it under RadioRa2, it would lose its pairing with caseta, and vice-versa.
I think you are misunderstanding the notion of simultaneous plus the fact that the pico cannot receive any data.

Quote:
Can I control more than one light with a Pico remote control?
Yes, you can pair a Pico remote control with multiple dimmers. This is helpful if you wish, for example, to turn off all the lights in your bedroom with one button press, without getting out of bed.

I bought a kit – can I add more dimmers and Pico remote controls?
Yes, it’s easy to add more Caséta Wireless dimmers at any time. Simply install the new dimmers and pair them with your existing Pico remote controls. Or, add Pico remote controls to create additional points of control.
So if you can pair additional dimmers to the pico without losing the pairing with the original dimmer then the same should apply to repeaters and other devices.
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post #1106 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 05:09 PM
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AZ1324 is presumably correct, though Lutron suggest you cannot. I'm intrigued but not willing to try as I don't have a customer it's required for. I would side with AZ that you could but until it actually come up, I'll leave it as a theoretical yes.

Paul W.
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post #1107 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by spiwrx View Post
Yes, and update your software. Depending on your version of the software you may have to configure the 6NA to Trailing edge (I think Lutron calls reverse phase). There was a glitch in a previous version(7.0? Corrected in 7.1). If you are current 7.6 or 7.7 it should set them to "Auto-Detect". If you're on the wrong version it defaults to forward phase I don't know if this is configurable in the software I think it's a manual APM.
In case this was of interest, and to remind some of you (as I just had to remind my self)

If you want to access the APM (advanced programming) in the software:
  • Design Tab
  • Select Device
  • Right Click picture of device > Advanced setting pop-up
  • Click advanced settings
  • for 6NA you will see "Phase control" drop down
  • be careful with the "apply to all". Though it is helpful when you want to adjust all the system fade times...
  • hi/low end trim can also be adjusted here
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post #1108 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az1324 View Post
I think you are misunderstanding the notion of simultaneous plus the fact that the pico cannot receive any data.



So if you can pair additional dimmers to the pico without losing the pairing with the original dimmer then the same should apply to repeaters and other devices.
You wouldn't pair the Pico with more than one dimmer. You'd program it's buttons to affect whatever devices you want. The buttons can be tied to all the same devices, or ungrouped to allow buttons to affect different devices. But it does have to be devices, not virtual keypads or shared scenes. The raise/lower buttons will only do that, across whatever devices you set up. The center button will set whatever devices you configure. It does not appear to be able to trigger a scene shared elsewhere, nor a button on a keypad (virtual or physical). At least not in the 7.6 software.
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post #1109 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post
You wouldn't pair the Pico with more than one dimmer. You'd program it's buttons to affect whatever devices you want. The buttons can be tied to all the same devices, or ungrouped to allow buttons to affect different devices. But it does have to be devices, not virtual keypads or shared scenes. The raise/lower buttons will only do that, across whatever devices you set up. The center button will set whatever devices you configure. It does not appear to be able to trigger a scene shared elsewhere, nor a button on a keypad (virtual or physical). At least not in the 7.6 software.
I know this is the RA2 thread, but that quote was in reference to a standalone caseta installation and only meant to support my point about the "pairing" process.
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post #1110 of 1227 Old 08-05-2014, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post
You wouldn't pair the Pico with more than one dimmer. You'd program it's buttons to affect whatever devices you want. The buttons can be tied to all the same devices, or ungrouped to allow buttons to affect different devices. But it does have to be devices, not virtual keypads or shared scenes. The raise/lower buttons will only do that, across whatever devices you set up. The center button will set whatever devices you configure. It does not appear to be able to trigger a scene shared elsewhere, nor a button on a keypad (virtual or physical). At least not in the 7.6 software.
I want to use Picos in place of keypads in almost all locations of my house. Is this doable? Can I have one button on the Pico that turns on loads on 2 dimmers?
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