Samsung LED + CEC + Crestron Digital Media - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 94 Old 10-19-2009, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I posted this on the Crestron Yahoo group but no one seems to have an answer.

I was wondering if anyone has used the CEC protocol on a Samsung LED, specifically the UN55B8000 55" 1080p LED HDTV, within a Crestron DM (Digital Media) environment?

I am planning 2 separate projects with DM and I want to control the Samsung LED with CEC. The descriptions of the DM system on Crestrons website says "Through proper CEC signal management, Crestron allows you to take control of each device as you like."

Has any one done this or something similar? If so how difficult was it to implement and is it reliable for Power (On/Off), input selection, etc?

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 94 Old 10-19-2009, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Delicious View Post

I posted this on the Crestron Yahoo group but no one seems to have an answer.

I was wondering if anyone has used the CEC protocol on a Samsung LED, specifically the UN55B8000 55" 1080p LED HDTV, within a Crestron DM (Digital Media) environment?

I haven't used it so I'm not really helpful. But IMO I just cant trust it.. its not standard for all equipment yet and is still fairly new. I hate trying things and then having to redo them because "it should have worked" if you do try it however, I'd like to know how it turns out.

EDIT: Also I'm curious to know what devices crestron tested this with and the scenario in which they tested. (since they post that it you can use the CEC protocol)

"I'm just a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it"
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post #3 of 94 Old 10-19-2009, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahwoo View Post

I haven't used it so I'm not really helpful. But IMO I just cant trust it.. its not standard for all equipment yet and is still fairly new. I hate trying things and then having to redo them because "it should have worked" if you do try it however, I'd like to know how it turns out.

Thanks for the reply. The CEC protocol is part of the HDMI standard and the reason I decided to go with CEC is that this particular display Samsung states on it's web site that "HDMI-CEC" is a feature of the UN55B8000 55" 1080p LED HDTV.

I was hesitant on the Samsung display, due to the lack of an RS-232 port, but after 4 Pioneer Elite plasmas, which are great by the way, I wanted to try something different plus I have picked out all displays in our house and my wife wanted to pick this one. By the way this DM system is for our house.

We are in the process of running Fiber to all the display in our house, as this will be a Fiber based DM system, and I wanted to run just one HDMI cable from the room controller (DM-RMC-100-F) for video and display control.

I will let you know how it goes, using CEC as a control protocol.
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post #4 of 94 Old 10-19-2009, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahwoo View Post

EDIT: Also I'm curious to know what devices crestron tested this with and the scenario in which they tested. (since they post that it you can use the CEC protocol)

My next step is to give TB a call and ask that very same question.
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post #5 of 94 Old 10-20-2009, 10:03 PM
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At TB DM training I attended last month it was suggested to turn off any form of CEC. In practice I always turn off CEC...

YMMV
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post #6 of 94 Old 10-21-2009, 08:17 AM
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CEC never works right, first thing I suggest doing when setting up any equipment is turning it off, the only chance of it working is when you have lets say a samsung tv and a samsung blu-ray then it might work, but even then I wouldn't rely on it, make sure you have a second way to control that TV or device, either by hauling cat 5 for an IR Repeater or eye or RF or serial control cable.
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post #7 of 94 Old 10-21-2009, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roddymcg View Post

At TB DM training I attended last month it was suggested to turn off any form of CEC. In practice I always turn off CEC...

YMMV

When I was at DM training over at Crestron West they actually had CEC working and showing how it can control a display (PON, POF, Input). Since I am installing this in my house I am going to really try hard to make CEC work, specifically PON and POF. I only want one cable, Fiber, from the DM system to the Room Controller (DM-RMC-100-F) and from the room controller to the display a very short HDMI cable.

I am going to call TB this afternoon and see what I need to do to control the Samsung. If I can not get CEC to work with the Samsung, I am going with the Pioneer Elite Pro-141FD since I can control it via Ethernet and the DM-RMC-100-F has an Ethernet port.

Going the Pioneer route I will have two cables coming from the room controller, an HDMI cable and an ethernet cable both going to the Pioneer display. Either way I will still only have 1 fiber cable, going to each of the 5 locations, which will carry Data (Ethernet, RS-232, IR, USB/HID), Audio and Video.

I should have this installed and completed by the end of next week. If I get it to work via CEC I will post my results. Although the results will only be beneficial for those running a Crestron DM system.
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post #8 of 94 Old 10-22-2009, 05:43 PM
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"I should have this installed and completed by the end of next week. If I get it to work via CEC I will post my results. Although the results will only be beneficial for those running a Crestron DM system."


And if you can't...................DON'T JUMP

Actually, I have been reading this thread and discovered liquid forming at the corners of my mouth. I WANT IT. I only have three locations to send it to but it's a finished house and the thought of a single run of fiber is making me feel all funny inside

Current owner of the last/best AmPro on the planet. The mighty 4600HD, and it's still running...better than Barco's, especially southern ones.
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post #9 of 94 Old 10-23-2009, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Delicious View Post

I should have this installed and completed by the end of next week.

I have decided post my experience, and pics, on setting up a Crestron DM system. For those of you who dont know what a "DM" system is, it's Crestron Digital Media distribution system you can read more about what it is HERE.

I have stated in a previous post that "I should have this installed and completed by the end of next week." but alas, a call into Crestron this AM inquiring about shipping status of the DM system makes me alter my install schedule. I received a email stating that my shipment was going out on the 21st. Which was partially true, the DM-RMC-100-F's were shipped. But I was told that the DM system itself won't ship until Thursday the 28th. So this means I will not have the DM system "installed and completed by the end of next week" but more likely the week of the 30th and maybe even the weekend of the 4th.

The reason for the delay is that Crestron actually installs all the cards, input and output, that you specified on the order. I am installing a DM-8x8 and I was under the impression, from DM training, that all the cards are field installed by the dealer with the exception of the output cards for the DM-16x16, and that Crestron pre-installs those cards. I guess Im wrong.

What I have done so far? Not much. I have pulled and terminated fiber to two of the five rooms so far. I am running multimode/multi-strand, 50 micron, SC/SC fiber.

So where are the pics you ask? I would have taken pics to post of the fiber install and termination but I already have the TV's backup and I really didn't think about pics until I thought of doing this post. At any rate I will have pics of the fiber, DM system being installed, configured, etc once I actually start the install.

More to come . . . . .
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post #10 of 94 Old 12-09-2009, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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UPDATE
The Crestron DigitalMedia Install Progress - I ordered the DM system and all the cards, DM-RMC-100-F's, etc back in the beginning of October. My DM system is a fiber based system and the output cards needed, the DMCO-13, were not released yet. In fact they were released about a week ago and I was notified that the DM 8x8 has shipped and I should be receiving it tomorrow. As far as the DMCO-13's go, they are suppose to ship out Friday 12/11 or Monday 12/14. Fiber has been pulled and terminated so I am waiting on the DMCO-13's in order to get the complete system up and running.
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post #11 of 94 Old 12-18-2009, 05:30 PM
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Yo, GG hows the DM system coming along???

Current owner of the last/best AmPro on the planet. The mighty 4600HD, and it's still running...better than Barco's, especially southern ones.
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post #12 of 94 Old 12-19-2009, 12:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post

Yo, GG hows the DM system coming along???

Here is what I was told by Crestron on Tuesday the 15th. It looks like another 1 to 2 weeks before the DMCO 13's ship. I have everything except the DMCO 13's which is holding up my project. See the email' from Crestron below. At the end of the second email it states, and I quote, "This date is tentative and subject to change."

**************
From Crestron Support to Crestron Sales

From: Deborah Calimlin
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:49 PM
To: Jean Fontana
Subject: DM Order#*****

Jean:
Can you please “reply all”

James would like an ETA on the shipment of his DMCO-13 from Order#******.

Thank you

Deborah Calimlin
Advanced Technical Support Group
**************

Below is the response I received from Jean at Crestron Sales support

**************
Hello Deb/James,
The current lead time on this as of today is about 1- 2 more weeks. This date is tentative and subject to change.
Thank you!
**************

HOPEFULLY, they will ship next week. If not we are looking at January for the actual install.

Also, I did get some news from Crestron regarding CEC control. The reason I was talking to Debbie from Crestrons Advanced Technical Support Group was to discuss CEC implementation. She emailed me a document, published by HDMI, LLC that has all the CEC codes needed to control HDMI devices. Also, Crestron released a firmware update for the DM-MD8x8 & 16x16 that specifically address CEC, among other things. In regards to CEC the release notes state;

CEC Device control on the following devices
DMC-HD
DMC-HD-DSP
DM-TX-100
DM-TX-100-F ( The one's I am using)
DM-TX-200

The HDMI CEC document, with all the HEX codes, is what was needed to implement CEC control with the new firmware update. Once I get the DMCO-13's I will let everyone know how it's working out.
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post #13 of 94 Old 12-21-2009, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I received an email from Crestron that the DMCO-13's have shipped via UPS Ground and according to UPS I should be receiving them on the 29th.

With that in mind, I am looking to do the install on the week of Jan 4th.
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post #14 of 94 Old 12-22-2009, 04:49 PM
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Crap, I wish you lived closer. I'd come and help for free just to see how it works. My curiousity level has peaked.

Current owner of the last/best AmPro on the planet. The mighty 4600HD, and it's still running...better than Barco's, especially southern ones.
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post #15 of 94 Old 12-22-2009, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post

Crap, I wish you lived closer. I'd come and help for free just to see how it works.

And you would be more than welcome to come by! ! !
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post #16 of 94 Old 12-28-2009, 07:03 PM
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please keep us updated... we have an upcoming project and interested in hearing other dealers opinions of the DM switcher....
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post #17 of 94 Old 12-29-2009, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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So I finally receive the DMCO-13's this afternoon and started installing the DM system.

Here is a pic of one of the DMCO-13's.


There are2 Fiber outputs and 2 HDMI outputs on each card. The fiber outs will be going to the DM-RMC-100-F's and the HDMI outputs, for audio, will be going to the corresponding rooms receiver (Each room has it's own receiver). You also see 2 channel audio break out but I will not be using those. Note all equipment is centrally located in a rack so the HDMI runs to the receiver are 3ft. at the longest.

Here is a quick summary of the Crestron system I have installed. Once I have the DM system completely installed I will post details of my system including lighting, shades and HVAC, including pics and network information.

Controllers communicating via EISC

Pro2 (Audio/Video)
PAC2M (Lighting, Shades, HVAC, Whole house aromatic system (

ScentAir))
Touch Panels

TPMC-8X (Living Room)
TPMC-4X (Master BR)
iPhone (Media Room)
iPhone (Den)

AV Switching

Neothings Avalon 8x8 (now used for Digital Audio, Coax/TOSLINK, only)
Crestron DM8x8 Fiber Based w/DM-RMC-100-F's

AV Equip.
Receivers

Denon AVR2807 (Living Room)
Denon AVR2807 (Master BR Room)
Pioneer Elite SC-05 (Den)
Pioneer Elite SC-25 (Media Room)

Displays

Pioneer Elite Pro FHD-01 (Living Room)
Pioneer Elite Pro-111-FD (Master BR)
Samsung UN46B8000 46" 1080p LED HDTV (Den)
Pioneer Elite Pro-141-FD (Media Room)

Video Sources

Kaleidescape KServer-1500 1U Server 4 1TB Drives. Wil be upgrading to 4 2TB drives this month
Kaleidescape 1080p player (Living Room)
Kaleidescape 1080p player (Master BR)
Kaleidescape 1080p mini player (Den)
Kaleidescape 1080p Mini player (Media Room)
AppleTV
Cable Box (Only 1 for the whole house)
MacPro
Wii

Audio Sources

Crestron CEN-Track w/ Am/FM/Sirius Digital Card
Kaleidescape
AppleTV

Here is a pic that I took today showing the DM-RMC-100-F installed. Right now I have the entire living room running on the DM system. Tomorrow I will have the rest of the house completed.

Here you see the DM-RMC-100-F attached to the wall along with the the fiber cable connecting to it (D & M) and power (G & 24). The DM 8x8 sends the following to each DM-RMC-100-F, one is located at every display in our house, over a single pair of, 2 strand, fiber.
1) Uncompressed HDMI 1.3 video with support for Deep Color
2) Uncompressed Multi-channel Audio (Dolby® TrueHD 7.1, Dolby Digital Plus 7.1, Dolby Digital AC3 5.1, Dolby Digital EX 5.1, DTS-HD Master Audio™ 7.1, DTS-HD High Res 7.1, DTS 5.1, DTS-ES Matrix 5.1, DTS-ES Discrete 6.1, DTS 96/24 5.1, up to 8ch PCM)
3) Ethernet (10/100)
4) RS-232 (1 Port)
5) IR (2 Ports)
6) USB (1 Port)
7) Relay (2 Ports)
8) Digital/Contact
9) Ability to embed CEC commands directly within the HDMI Channel and send to any display
10) IP Phone System - Not only that I am able to run 1-9 above, but also our entire phone system over the same fiber cable that the DM system uses.



As for the DM8x8 here is a pic of it before all the cards were installed. As you can see 2 HDMI cards are missing as well as both the output cards, the DMCO-13's



Once I have the entire house completed I will post complete details.

Thats all for now.
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post #18 of 94 Old 12-29-2009, 10:36 PM
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Great post. Ready for the next hit!
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post #19 of 94 Old 01-02-2010, 05:46 PM
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Curious if youve been able to get it to work and if so will it do a PON and POFF? Thanks for all the detail already.
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post #20 of 94 Old 01-06-2010, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osninc View Post

Curious if youve been able to get it to work and if so will it do a PON and POFF? Thanks for all the detail already.

I have not tried to use PON/POF via CEC. Since my last post I have been swamped (which is a good thing).

I am hoping to post a detailed schematic that includes 2D CAD drawings of my entire system, network, A/V routing, lighting, shades, HVAC and CEC details by the end of this month.
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post #21 of 94 Old 01-26-2010, 01:27 AM
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any update?
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post #22 of 94 Old 01-26-2010, 05:00 PM
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I'm curious as to the results of this as well!
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post #23 of 94 Old 01-26-2010, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi All,
Sorry for not updating, I have been REALL, REALLY busy.

Quick summary. I installed a Crestron Digital Media System (DM-8x8) in my home and running fiber from the DM-8x8 to 4 DM-RMC-100-F's one at each of the four plasma displays.

I am using the DMCO-13 output cards (2) on the DM-8x8. Each card has 2 Fiber outputs and 2 HDMI output. As I mentioned above the fiber from the DM-8x8 is going form the 2 DMCO-13 cards to the 4 DM-RMC-100-F's one at each of the four plasma displays. The HDMI outs (4 of them) are each going to the rooms receiver HDMI input carrying uncompressed audio. There is also 2 channel audio break out but I will not be using those. Note all equipment is centrally located in a rack so the HDMI runs to the receiver are 3ft. at the longest.

So here is where the project stands.

1) The entire system is in, DM 8x8, DM Input Cards, DMCO 13 output cards, DM-RMC-100-F boxes.

2) Everything has been programmed. I do have to say programming a DM system is very easy and straight forward. No issues at all.

3) Control - I am running one Fiber cable from the DM-8x8 to each DM-RMC-100-F. From the DM-RMC-100-F I am controlling 2 of the 3 plasmas via RS-232, running 6" of CAT5 from a terminal block on the DM-RMC-100-F to a RJ45 to DB9 adapter connected to the displays.

The other Plasma (Samsung) is being controlled via CEC. I am only controlling PON and POF since there is no need to switch inputs on the displays. All thats is done by the DM-8x8. Programming CEC on the Crestron DM-8x8 was very easy. You do need to obtain the CEC codes from HDMI, LLC.

As far as Plasma #4 goes, the Pioneer Elite Pro-141-FD, it has not yet been installed (it's sitting in storage). I am re-doing the media room and waiting for custom millwork to be finished (Mid-Feb I am told), Drapes to be completed (Late Feb early March) and Sofa to be finished (Late Feb early March).

4) Switching - The Crestron DM system uses Crestron quick switching technology. I do have to say that switching is fast. The longest delay I experience between switching and the image being displayed is 3 seconds, which is Kaleidescape. The quickest is switching to my MacPro which is almost immediate < 1 sec delay. No 5 sec, 10 sec, 15 sec delay. 3 sec. max. Audio switching on the DM system is immediate no matter the source.

Although I am a Crestron dealer/programer I might be a bit biased but there is nothing out there that any other company offers that can come close to Crestron's DM system. Not Control4, Just Add Power, Gefen, no one. Crestron's DM system can take any video source, Component, Composite, DVI, HDMI and send it to any display.

I do have pics, schematics and 2D architectural drawings of my automation system that, when I have time, I will be posting along with a complete write up showing every detail of my system. I am debating of putting it in Home Automation or Home A/V Distribution and Networking. Since it's both I can't decide.

I hope that satisfys for now. Any questions? I will be more than happy to answer.
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post #24 of 94 Old 01-26-2010, 10:54 PM
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That is really awesome update, glad to hear it is working out so well for you. I will be in the market soon.

Can you do a test when you get a minute? See what happens when you "listen to music from CD while watching Kalediscape on TV". In other words, mix the audio and video streams and see how DM handles it. I am really curious about this because I do it a lot.

Thanks!!

EDIT: also, what is the PON/POFF codes? is it consistent among all mfgs (ie a standard?). How did you do the CEC coding? Did you use the DM configuration tool, or program it in SIMPL?
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post #25 of 94 Old 01-26-2010, 11:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

Can you do a test when you get a minute? See what happens when you "listen to music from CD while watching Kalediscape on TV". In other words, mix the audio and video streams and see how DM handles it. I am really curious about this because I do it a lot.

I will do this tomorrow and let you know. I am sure it will handle it fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

also, what is the PON/POFF codes? is it consistent among all mfgs (ie a standard?).

The PON/POF codes I received are straight from HDMI, LLC the company that sets the standard. According to the 1.3 documentation, 276 pages, a company can use their own proprietary codes but must also support a set of standard codes that are set/adopted by HDMI, LLC. Within the "Standard" code set are the codes for PON and POF, among others, that must be supported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

How did you do the CEC coding? Did you use the DM configuration tool, or program it in SIMPL?

I did it in SIMPL. I will post a few screen shots over the weekend, more likely Sunday, of the CEC coding in SIMPL.
Hope that helps.
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post #26 of 94 Old 01-26-2010, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Just 2 pics. 1 showing the DM-8x8 and the other is a partial rack shot.



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post #27 of 94 Old 01-27-2010, 01:37 AM
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cool, thx for the info. You should start a thread in the "home entertainment and theater builder" documenting your personal system, there are a lot of people looking for "whole home" threads. I put mine up at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1216865
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post #28 of 94 Old 01-27-2010, 07:45 PM
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Wow, thanks for the update - looks like an awesome system! Are you a Crestron dealer or CAIP?

Edit: Also - I think that CEC (or perhaps a modified version) would really help the A/V industry, since components could easily be switched out by consumers (or integrators) without changing code. I know that's a source of frustration for many consumers with Crestron (or any other brand) control system. But that's probably a discussion for another thread.

Not to get the thread off topic, but I'm going to have to look into those Kalediscape systems. I've heard a lot about them, but don't really know much. Any general comments on it?
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post #29 of 94 Old 01-27-2010, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cntp View Post

Wow, thanks for the update - looks like an awesome system! Are you a Crestron dealer or CAIP?

My company, Digital Studio Werks, is a Crestron dealer. As far as me personally I need one more class, Programming for Certification and then the final exam in order to achieve Certified Crestron Programmer. I have the required programs written to take the class, Programming for Certification, I am just reviewing them so they come back without any "you need to fix this, that, etc". I HATE that.

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Edit: Also - I think that CEC (or perhaps a modified version) would really help the A/V industry, since components could easily be switched out by consumers (or integrators) without changing code. I know that's a source of frustration for many consumers with Crestron (or any other brand) control system. But that's probably a discussion for another thread.

As far as CEC goes, it does make programming a breeze. I do have to say this though. Without the DM system I would not be able to use CEC due to the fact that you have send the codes through HDMI. The coding is easy as it's just a serial join. But what the DM system does is it give you the HDMI input to send the Serial commands on and get them into the HDMI channel and at the same time sends the feedback back to a Serial output. Every DM input & output card and on the room controllers there is a HMDI serial input and output.

In order for CEC to take off there needs to be a way to allow the programmer to get the commands into the HDMI channel.

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Not to get the thread off topic, but I'm going to have to look into those Kalediscape systems. I've heard a lot about them, but don't really know much. Any general comments on it?

Besides being a Crestron dealer we are also a Kaleidescape dealer amongst many other brands. We are a full CI company. If interested hit me up and I can answer any questions you have. You can also view the "Kaleidescape Experience" video on our web site. If you are interested in a Kaleidescape system, I can definitely work something out for you, after all I am the owner of Digital Studio Werks
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post #30 of 94 Old 01-27-2010, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Can you do a test when you get a minute? See what happens when you "listen to music from CD while watching Kalediscape on TV". In other words, mix the audio and video streams and see how DM handles it. I am really curious about this because I do it a lot.

Well I am watching a movie on kaleidescape and at the same time I am listening to Bebel Gilberto. Routed Audio and Video source independently of each other. No problems whatsoever.

Any questions feel free to ask.
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