Crestron equipment/programming advice needed - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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Home Automation > Crestron equipment/programming advice needed
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 04:06 AM 04-21-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&M 350Z View Post

The corresponding black wire is to the 5th rail of dim8. It is the 6th thats is always hot, blackened and had the red wire. When i cycle dim8 with setup button, here is how it is wired.

1 sconce
2 none
3 art
4 steps
5 rope
6 none
7 none
8 none

The screen lighting does not cycle and is either disconnected or has dead bulbs

I think I may have figured this out. Find the end or ends of the rope where the power is attached. That yellow jacketed wire with the red, black, white and ground goes to there. The black wire that is powering the ropes is in the same jacket as the red. You will have to play detective and find the junction from that black wire to the ropes. When you find it...Digital camera please.
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stefuel's Avatar stefuel 05:40 AM 04-21-2012
This whole red wire on burned terminal 6 has me really bothered. Until we know what it's actually connected to, I want you to pull it out and wire nut it.

Along with finding the red wire at the other end we need the brand, model and how many feet of rope lighting there actually is. Most rope lighting watts is calculated by the foot. You could have to much for one circuit to handle or a short in the rope someplace.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 06:31 PM 04-21-2012
One other thing to consider while you are scoping things out. Both the Dim4 and Dim8 have the same max watt capacity (1,920 watts/16 amps). Each output is also capable of handling 1,920 watts/16 amps. So if you use all 8 or just 1 as long as you dont go over. Both the 4 and 8 should be on their own 20A circuit.

Next time you have a chance you should turn everything on and use your clamp over amp meter on the black feeds to each dim module. That should be below 16 amps each.
A&M 350Z's Avatar A&M 350Z 08:51 PM 04-21-2012
I will check the amps. The dim4 and dim8 are on separate breakers.

The ropes are 120v american lighting brand. They plug directly into 4 receptacles. No transformer. The receptacles with the ropes do not have a red wire. I checked all receptacles and the only one with red wire is the fan dimmers. 2 fans with two lutron fan blade dimmers. Both fans work without the red wire connected. Also of note, the red wire ascends out of the panel. Only ceiling loads are fans and lighting. All the lighting though works with red disconnected.

I noticed something interesting. When the backlight button is selected on the touchpanel, the backlights come on and occasionally the ropes come on too. Maybe some cresnet issue related to faulty dim8?
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 02:02 AM 04-22-2012
"I noticed something interesting. When the backlight button is selected on the touchpanel, the backlights come on and occasionally the ropes come on too. Maybe some cresnet issue related to faulty dim8?"

See the last post on pg 12
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 07:14 AM 04-22-2012
"The ropes are 120v american lighting brand. They plug directly into 4 receptacles. No transformer. The receptacles with the ropes do not have a red wire. I checked all receptacles and the only one with red wire is the fan dimmers. 2 fans with two lutron fan blade dimmers. Both fans work without the red wire connected. Also of note, the red wire ascends out of the panel. Only ceiling loads are fans and lighting. All the lighting though works with red disconnected."

One of those 4 rope outlets has to have the other end of that 14/3 wire in it OR there is a junction box somewhere between the CAEN enclosure and the outlets for the rope lighting. Code dictates it. It is against code to make mechaincal electrical connections un-serviceable. Wire nuts burried in the wall is a big no no.
There is also the chance that another wall outlet is the junction box for that 14/3 wire. All outlets can be configured for one live and one switched on the same plug. One of those may have been set up as a switched outlet for a free standing lamp that was supposed to come on with the ropes.

With the red still connected, check every plug top and bottom at every location for power then pull the red and do it again. Use a lamp or test light to do this. I do not want this red wire connected to the new dim8 when it gets here.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 09:46 AM 04-22-2012
My last thought for the morning. Is there a chance that the red wire powers up something that leads you to or in the bathroom or kitchen. Is there a light outside of the entry to the theater that you would also want to go dark at movie time???
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 03:34 PM 04-22-2012
Here is what I think happened and I don't think it's a result of you trying to put this back together. I think some time before you bought the house, the dim8 failed and the rope lights would not turn off or dim. The easy fix was to move the wire that was supposed to be on terminal 6 (ropes) and move it to terminal 5 (back lights). That way when you turn down the back lights, the ropes turn down with it. The back lights are working so they must be getting their power from the dim4 on terminal 1 or terminal 5 on the dim8 (I suspect 1). The red used to be on terminal 5 and the black from 5 was on 6.
That red wire which is supposed to be on terminal 5 goes to a "incandescent" light someplace.

1. Is there a light fixture in the pocket for the projector?
2. Is there a light of some sort outside of the entrance to the theater that you wish you could control from the TP? It may even be on a switch but may be getting it's power from that red wire that is always hot.
3. Is there a media storage cabinet with a light in it. How else would you find your cd's and dvd's in the dark.
4. The equipment room. That's probably on a switch but you never know.
5. Any plugs in the middle of the floor near the seating that a lamp may have been plugged into.

The fact that it's associated with the "back lights" and not the "front lights" leads me to think that it's also in the back of the room. Look for signs on the carpet indicating a large furniture item was there perhaps a lighted hutch.

After we get the new dim8 in place and run network analyzer again to make sure all the cresnet errors are gone, it would be interesting to re-try hooking up the jandy spa controls. If you remember, we were trying to control and monitor it from the TP1000's They are on the cresnet which at the time was riddled with errors because of the dim8.

You better figure out where that red wire goes before I make you fly me down there and find it
A&M 350Z's Avatar A&M 350Z 05:58 PM 04-22-2012
Ha ha. All good thoughts. I need to do more investigating and take more pics. At work now, dont leave till 11, then back at 6 am! Maybe tomorrow afternoon. Dim8 scheduled for tuesday delivery.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 10:58 AM 04-23-2012
Just so you know, there is one last circuit of lights to figure out. That is connected to the dim4 on terminal 4. That is the one that is associated with the pad8 audio controller (hundred). All the other lighting is listed as incandescent but that one. That one is listed as "no dim". Do you have lights that shine down on the LC1000's when you touch the screen? I ask because the signal for terminal 4 originates within the audio zone logic and not addressable from the lighting screen on the tp.
A&M 350Z's Avatar A&M 350Z 07:36 PM 04-23-2012
Argh, busy weekend! Here is what little I learned tonight though.

For reference I confirmed what terminals are activated by the various touchpanels buttons.

Back lights DIM4-1 and DIM8-5
Front lights DIM4-2
Deck lights DIM4-3
Sconce DIM8-1
Screen lights DIM8-2
Art DIM8-3
Steps DIM8-4
Ropes DIM8-6

Those are all linked correct except ropes as we know. Again, ropes are on DIM8-5. I agree with your assertion that DIM8 went bad and ropes were connected to DIM4 back lights. To further that theory, there are two black wire connected to DIM4-1. The back lights are actually the main overheads in the room. Maybe they had originally spread the load over DIM4 and 8 and then to keep ropes working they pulled the wire from DIM8-5, added to DIM4-1 and put ropes on the DIM8-5. I checked the amps though it looks okay. It is stupid to have the ropes linked to the back lights. The ropes would be nice accent lighting during tv or sports watching. But you would not use the back lights, even dimmed with the pj on, even with my light cannon.

DIM4-4 is the floor receptacles. It was previously floor lamps I believe. Now I am using the floor receptacles (there are 3) to power my seating. So always on works good. Not necessary to go through the DIM4 but fine nonetheless. I have no idea why it is linked to the pad8/audio logic except perhaps in my pm to you.

Red wire remains a mystery. There is no entry light to the room, it is connected with game room via glass sliding doors. Maybe it was planned to control screen motor and then decided to use 12 volt trigger? The equipment closet is on a separate load controlled by a door trigger. Bathroom lights and fan all separate. The theater is an addition over our outdoor loggia/kitchen. Perhaps something powered outside was controlled. However, everything is working that I can find. I guess it can just remained disconnected!
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 08:18 PM 04-23-2012
When the new dim8 is installed, split the back lights the way it was intended and put the ropes back on six. Wire nut and tape that useless red wire and push it off to the side. Tomorrow night we can swap out the dim8 and I should be able to reset the cresnet address for it from here. That'll be a first for me. See, I'm learning something too

I did some more poking around in the program you sent me. This is incomplete. None of the serial device drivers have serial strings entered in the correct fields so these drivers are sending nothing. But one thing at a time. Lets finish the lights up.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 08:39 PM 04-23-2012
When the new dim8 shows up and you see it on the table in front of you, it will become obvious to you how to change it. Just do it
I'll be home from work between 4 and 5 PM tomorrow. I just looked because I haven't done it in a while but it should take me no longer than a minute to change it's cresnet address from here.
A&M 350Z's Avatar A&M 350Z 03:06 PM 04-24-2012
DIM8 didn't show up before I left for work. On call again till 12. Might try to install it late tonight if not too tired.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 03:11 PM 04-24-2012
Damn. I was sitting here with my finger on the button
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 03:16 PM 04-24-2012
Not sure what time zone you are in. Is 12:00 for you 1:00 for me??? That means 2:00AM or later at best before I could change the address. I'll check in the AM while I'm having coffee. If it's there and plugged in, I'll know it and change it.
A&M 350Z's Avatar A&M 350Z 11:26 PM 04-24-2012
Dim8 installed. Operating correctly in manual mode. Back overheads split between dim4 and dim8-5. Ropes on dim8-6. Net light off, just need a cresnet address! Red disconnected.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 03:26 AM 04-25-2012
Good job.
Net address is set. The replacement was at 11 and is now set to 65. Net light should be on now. I scanned it again with network analyzer and now what's connected is clean. You did however forget to connect the TP1000's as they show N/A. Now everything (should) be working OK. You are however still over budget on the cresnet power. Tonight we will go over how I'd like you to use that 75 watt supply so that you don't torch the 50 watt supply in the Pro2 and loose everything.
A&M 350Z's Avatar A&M 350Z 11:51 AM 04-25-2012
Awesome!! Everything works great. I intentionally left the tp disconnected. Added them in this morning and all is working well. Can you explain how we are over budget. I went to crestron's cresnet calculator and they don't even list dim modules as power items. Without the dim modules the power is sufficient.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 07:54 PM 04-25-2012
Sorry for the delay. I was having trouble with a mousetrap
My son has a physics project due tomorrow and I thought it was next week.
Try and build a single mousetrap powered car that can go 15 meters and stop give or take a half a meter. No one in his class has done it and some of these dads are hot shot engineers. I built him one that goes 15 meters and stops give or take a half inch That ain't easy. I'd rather be troubleshooting cresnet problems from 1,500 miles away blindfolded

Anyway, I'm still trying to figure out this power usage thing. The pro2's manual states 50 watts output. I have been told that it actually has a 75 watt supply but only makes 50 at best from the cresnet connector. The more options you ad to it like the C2ENET1 reduce the available power accordinly. So 27 watts is being used by the Pro2

Pro2 27 watts
3 LC1000's @ 3 ea 9 watts
CNX-PAD8A 10 watts
C2N-TXM 8 watts
--------
54 watts

So if it is a 50 watt supply, you are over budget by 4 watts. Now if it is a 75 watt supply (manual does not say so) You do (on paper) have 21 watts to spare. Now you do have to take into consideration wire length and wire gauge. I don't know how many feet of cresnet (especially that, that is cat5) you have. Cat5 even using twisted pairs is way smaller then the 24 and G on real cresnet wire and being smaller gauge does require more power to overcome the resistance of the smaller wire. That said, power supplies especially those that have been pushed hard weaken faster with age. So my thought is as you already have it, put that 75 watt supply in service and take some of the load off the Pro2. You can do this a couple of ways but I would, let the pro2 do nothing but power it's self and 75 watt supply handle everything else. That way both would be coasting along with plenty to spare.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 08:17 PM 04-25-2012
Oh yea, plug the Jandy stuff back in and try it from the theate TP.
Now that we have reasonable communication everywhere else.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 03:50 AM 04-26-2012
I ran network analyzer again this AM and all devices came back OK. However there is still quite alot of noise on the "Y". Are you still using 4 twisted pairs?
If so, drop the twisted pair that is now on the "Y" at all connectors ALL OF THEM or it won't work and use the twisted pair from "Z". From that pair use the solid color for "Y" and the white with stripe for "Z" at all connectors. I have been told that the use of one twisted pair for Y and Z helps in rejecting the noise.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 04:34 AM 04-26-2012
Something that can cause alot of problems with cat5 that is used for any reason is the use of hand staples to secure the wire to the rough framework.
If the staples are driven in to hard, it crushes the wires insulation enough to cause shorts between wires or break wires in the pair.
A&M 350Z's Avatar A&M 350Z 01:49 PM 04-26-2012
Good point on the pro2 expansion modules using power. Didn't consider that. I am still not sure if the DIM's are using any power. My understanding is no, so the power supply as is currently configured isn't really powering anything. If I use that power supply to power all above I would need to daisy chain the devices. Or just use it to power the pad8a and maybe daisy chain the xm tuner.

Interesting about the noise on Y. I bet that is cat5 related. I cant easily change the wiring to the touchpanels. They may very well but stapled to studs in the walls. I will change the local wiring at the rack. Rather than spend hours redoing the twisted pair, I will just get the cresnet wire and do it right once.

I will give the Jandy one more shot. On call again Friday night, might try tonight or tommorrow morning though.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 05:25 PM 04-26-2012
"I'm Sorry for the delay. I was having trouble with a mousetrap
My son has a physics project due tomorrow and I thought it was next week.
Try and build a single mousetrap powered car that can go 15 meters and stop give or take a half a meter. No one in his class has done it and some of these dads are hot shot engineers. I built him one that goes 15 meters and stops give or take a half inch That ain't easy. I'd rather be troubleshooting cresnet problems from 1,500 miles away blindfolded"

I know this is just a bit OT but I'm batting a thousand this week.
My son took his mousetrap car to physics class today and it performed perfectly on the first try. There was three tests. You got X points if it could go five meters and a additional X points if it could go ten meters.
To go for the gold it had to go 15 meters and stop within a half meter of the finish line. The finish line was a 1/2 inch wide strip of tape. The cars front wheel stopped on the tape, 1/4 inch from the center line of the tape.
But that's not the best part. The cars design made it pick up speed at the end of the run. The teacher almost jumped the gun and failed it because he was sure it would blow way past the finish line. It did......but then it shifted into reverse, backed up and stopped right on the line. I was told everyone in the room cracked up. His is so far the only one that has even gotten close

I AM THE MASTER OF THE MECHANICAL.............STUFF.
A&M 350Z's Avatar A&M 350Z 08:38 PM 04-26-2012
That is awesome! Can't wait for school science projects.

Tried the Jandy, still not working. Oh well it was worth a try. I will be curious to see what I am doing wrong.
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 12:09 AM 04-27-2012
A family member was supposed to be involved in the project because part of the written part of the project was to discus tool safety. It must have been pretty obvious he had help as most of the kids cars were consructed of wood and plastic. The frame on ours is TIG welded aluminum.

I DON'T LIKE TO LOSE, it's not optional
stefuel's Avatar stefuel 03:41 PM 04-27-2012
OK, back to work. There's a few things you should do before you get your reprogramming. I would like to see you split up some of the load on the cresnet. I'm sure those long runs of cat5 are sucking up their share of power.
If it were me, I would let the power supply in the Pro2 just take care of it's self. I would make up a three wire (Y,Z and G) interconnect to go from the Pro2 and say terminal 1 on the CNT-block. Then I'd make up a four wire and plug the 75 watt supply into say terminal 2. Then all you have to do is plug all the rest of the Cresnet devices into the CNT-Block. You have enough ports for that and you won't be mixing power.

Then I'd like you to replace as much of the cat5 as you can with the real thing. You really do need to reduce the amount of noise on the cresnet,
I actually did come up with a couple of fails since the dim8 change but it was not a hardware problem this time. I could see that it was just outside of what would pass and it was noise.

You said you'd like serial control of the projector. How many feet is it from the Pro2 and the projector and is there a way to get a serial cable to it.
You have a IR feed to the projector. That's still a option.
A&M 350Z's Avatar A&M 350Z 08:15 PM 04-30-2012
Found a local programmer and programming is nearing completion!! It will be loosely based on guifx Oscar layout. Will upload on Wednesday and troubleshoot, make adjustments and improvements from there. Also going to get some cresnet cable on Wednesday and rewire just for the heck of it.
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