Sports Bar Questions - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-27-2011, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
M3AL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm not sure exactly which topic to post this in so I figured this is the best since I'm looking at doing an automation system in the Sports Bar. Basically I am in the process of opening a new Sports Bar and wanted some advice. The building is 6500 sq/ft total, but 5000 sq/ft is the dining area. This is what I've come up with so far, but got different opinions from various AV guys here.
  • We will have approximately 42 displays (43" & 51" Plasmas)
  • Wanted to do a 16x48 Component Matrix System (NeoPro or VideoStorm)
  • 11 DirecTv Boxes, 2 Cable boxes & 1 DVD (advertising on a loop)
  • Control4 1- HC1000 & 1- HC 300
  • All light switches using Control4
  • 2 wall mount Control4 touch panels
  • Cat 5 cables ran to each TV with Component Baluns
  • 10 pairs of speakers
  • 5 different zones for audio

The questions I have:
1. I've been told not to use component matrix as I will be wasting money since it is going away. I know it will be going away, but since it's still available will I be making a mistake? I like HDMI, but can't seem to work that into my budget.

2. One AV company told me to use ZeeVee instead of the Matrix System. I've never heard of this and tried figuring out if that's a good idea but their website doesn't explain it very well. Any ideas?

3. Is Control 4 a good system to go for in Commercial application? I have it in my house and love the way it operates.

4. Is 10 pairs of speakers good enough for 5000 sq/ft area? Any recommendations on commercial use speakers?

5. Can someone point me in the right direction on TV placement (height, angle, optimal viewing position etc...)?

6. I'm planning on using Samsung 43" & 51" Plasma TV's because of the refresh rate and of course price. Is there a disadvantage on using plasmas in a sports bar? We do have windows but no direct sunlight will be coming inside.

7. We found some TV mounts online from a company named Dayton, anyone heard of them if the Ceiling Mounts are reliable?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions and if any of them seem too vague I can elaborate as much as needed. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
M3AL is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-27-2011, 06:25 PM
Senior Member
 
Dahwoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think depending on placement 10 pairs of speakers will not be enough if you take into account the amount of noise you plan on having (IE people yelling at the winning or losing team and overall ambient noise).. you'd have to pretty much be blasting them at all times for everyone to hear.

Secondly I hope you mean LCD's instead of Plasma's. Plasma's are not good for commercial applications because the fact is they still face burn in and dont last as long.

I would not do a matrix either... I don't know how many different things you plan on watching on all those TV's but I would consider a video buffer.. it will take say 1 input and buffer it cleanly to say 6 TV's (that way they all get the same signal quality) I don't think HDMI is going to be your best bet in a sport bar scenario but you may want to consider it for the prime TV/Projector locations. So a few buffers(6?) and a few main displays is the way I would go

"I'm just a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it"
Dahwoo is offline  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
M3AL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahwoo View Post

I think depending on placement 10 pairs of speakers will not be enough if you take into account the amount of noise you plan on having (IE people yelling at the winning or losing team and overall ambient noise).. you'd have to pretty much be blasting them at all times for everyone to hear.

Secondly I hope you mean LCD's instead of Plasma's. Plasma's are not good for commercial applications because the fact is they still face burn in and dont last as long.

I would not do a matrix either... I don't know how many different things you plan on watching on all those TV's but I would consider a video buffer.. it will take say 1 input and buffer it cleanly to say 6 TV's (that way they all get the same signal quality) I don't think HDMI is going to be your best bet in a sport bar scenario but you may want to consider it for the prime TV/Projector locations. So a few buffers(6?) and a few main displays is the way I would go

I agree on the speakers, maybe I'll just get larger speakers. I did mean Plasmas because I've been reading that the viewing angle & refresh rate are better on them. Also, most manufacturers have a built in chip that helps with the face burn. Plus for economical reasons i thought plasmas would be best. The reason I wanted the matrix is so I can switch any TV to any of the 14 sources I have available. Do you own a sports bar? If so, do your customers want a particular game on a certain TV? I really do appreciate the advice.

Ali
M3AL is offline  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Dahwoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3AL View Post

I agree on the speakers, maybe I'll just get larger speakers. I did mean Plasmas because I've been reading that the viewing angle & refresh rate are better on them. Also, most manufacturers have a built in chip that helps with the face burn. Plus for economical reasons i thought plasmas would be best. The reason I wanted the matrix is so I can switch any TV to any of the 14 sources I have available. Do you own a sports bar? If so, do your customers want a particular game on a certain TV? I really do appreciate the advice.

Ali

I do not own a sports bar. But have installed/programmed systems for a few(larger high end ones). As a customer of a sports bar who knows audio/video I am usually a fan of one giant screen that's fairly visible every where and multiple screens showing showing a few different options.. but I do like to be able to look around to another area and see the same thing that I was looking at in a previous direction. Sometimes you end up sitting or standing in an area where your neck hurts because of the angle which you have to view a TV. Having a TV in a different area helps with that problem by letting people adjust their necks.

as for having 14 different sources.. I think that's overkill for a home (though 80% of clients still prefer the option) so I definitely think it's overkill for a sportsbar? what do you plan on offering for sources and why so many? do you really need anything more than cable/sat and ipod with some sort of sat/local radio? I still don't see a benefit from a matrix in a sports bar. If money wasn't and issue then maybe... maybe I'd agree.


EDIT: As for the plasma's i still think LED's are the best way to go for a sportsbar.. unless the cost is the issue. LED's are just as quality as plasma and thinner, lighter, last longer, have less problems etc... the only thing a plasma may have going for it is that in some cases sports show better. But if you're not running HDMI I'm pretty sure you won't notice the difference and neither will the drunk guy yelling at the TV

"I'm just a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it"
Dahwoo is offline  
Old 09-27-2011, 08:18 PM
Member
 
Mizzer-d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Have you considered JustAddPower instead of the component matrix?
Mizzer-d is offline  
Old 09-27-2011, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
M3AL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahwoo View Post


I do not own a sports bar. But have installed/programmed systems for a few(larger high end ones). As a customer of a sports bar who knows audio/video I am usually a fan of one giant screen that's fairly visible every where and multiple screens showing showing a few different options.. but I do like to be able to look around to another area and see the same thing that I was looking at in a previous direction. Sometimes you end up sitting or standing in an area where your neck hurts because of the angle which you have to view a TV. Having a TV in a different area helps with that problem by letting people adjust their necks.

as for having 14 different sources.. I think that's overkill for a home (though 80% of clients still prefer the option) so I definitely think it's overkill for a sportsbar? what do you plan on offering for sources and why so many? do you really need anything more than cable/sat and ipod with some sort of sat/local radio? I still don't see a benefit from a matrix in a sports bar. If money wasn't and issue then maybe... maybe I'd agree.

EDIT: As for the plasma's i still think LED's are the best way to go for a sportsbar.. unless the cost is the issue. LED's are just as quality as plasma and thinner, lighter, last longer, have less problems etc... the only thing a plasma may have going for it is that in some cases sports show better. But if you're not running HDMI I'm pretty sure you won't notice the difference and neither will the drunk guy yelling at the TV


Well we have 14 different sources (11 directTv, 2 cable & 1 DVD) for days when there are multiple games on, for example this past weekend there were 8 NFL games & I think 3-4 MLB games so being able to have all the games on at once is the goal. I guess I was thinking of matrix because that's what I have at my house and it works really well. Also if TV 7 needs to be changed to satellite box 2 we can just change that TV instead of a group of TV's. Most of the sports bars that I have gone to (BW3, Twin Peaks, Hooters) have a matrix system as well. If I don't go with the matrix then would a touch panel system like control4 or AMX work? I just want it to be easy to use for the employees since i won't be there on a day to day basis. Regarding LED's, those alone would definitely take up the entire budget. If you don't mind me asking what's the largest sports bar you have done and what system did you put in there?
M3AL is offline  
Old 09-27-2011, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
M3AL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzer-d View Post

Have you considered JustAddPower instead of the component matrix?

Yes I looked into that but it was coming out to 3 times the price of the 16X48 component matrix. Also, I heard that it needs to be reset daily. Maybe the last part is false but just what I've heard.
M3AL is offline  
Old 09-27-2011, 09:04 PM
Senior Member
 
BradKas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I can't imagine using C4 lighting in a commerical application . They are just wall-box dimmers that, I assume, would be installed a remote location. A 5000 square foot dining room will have zones of lighting with many fixtures which equals high wattage.

You may want to look into a panel based lighting system (Lutron, Vantage, Crestron, etc.) that would handle remote mounting, and high wattage zones more elegantly.

This opinion may be off base without seeing the lighting design first!

Good luck with your project.
BradKas is offline  
Old 09-27-2011, 11:51 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Dean Roddey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 19,548
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 102
One of our installers has done quite a few sports bars, so you might want to talk to him. The systems he is doing are controlling 50 or more LCD screens around the bar and their sources, changing things on schedule to show whatever is desired at various times of the day, providing scheduling for music throughout the day, and other special features in the bar, plus I think some digital signage type displays up front and wantnot. They are pretty fancy systems.

He's also worked on a centralized scheduling and control system for some franchise stores. So he's pretty well versed in these types of setups.

PM me and I can get you guys together if you want to talk.

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems, Ltd

www.charmedquark.com

 

Dean Roddey is online now  
Old 09-28-2011, 08:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fletch999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 1,333
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If going plasma, (which I agree with) then you should use commercial panels instead of consumer. You will replace the consumer panels much more frequently. Same goes for consumer LCD/LED (plus unless you buy the best available these look like crap for the most part especially for sports).

Using the ZeeVee system is a great idea depending on your budget. The beauty part is you can add more displays and more sources at any time with a single run of coax. All of your displays need only a single run of coax to get full hi-def. Only caveat to the ZeeVee system is that all of the displays will need a built in or outboard tuner. Then tune in whichever of your channels you want on every display and you are set.

Agree completely that Control4 dimmers are not appropriate for a commercial environment. They won't stand up to the high wattages. Look at other options. Only thing going fo them is they are cheap.

As to sound, what do you want to get out of it? Most places I know will have only 1 main audio feed for 1 game at a time and even then its usually not listenable anyway. If you want it for pumping out high volume you need to hire a good commercial sound company to help you out. If its going to be a mixed use sound system for dancing etc, same thing, hire a good commercial audio company.

What kind of a budget for audio, video, lighting and control are we talking about? Approximately.
fletch999 is offline  
Old 09-28-2011, 09:48 AM
Senior Member
 
Dahwoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Someone above mentioned a complete control system which obviously is an option but can be expensive. Now we get into the realm of. How much do you have in your budget for a control system, possible matrix and programming?

I have done a BJ's Restaurant the theme is fairly the same however I don't know the exact size I would guess somewhere around 6000 sq ft.

If the Matrix fits in the budget and you think it's easier then having a touchpanel (IE an ipad) that has all the TV's laid out and you just selecting one and changing the channel by all means... I think the issue either way is going to be educating the employees on how to use either type of system. There's just some people who are not technology savvy and no matter what you put in there it will be hard for them to use.

I do recommend Ipad in wall for use... everyone knows how to use an ipad. If they don't fire them

I don't really recommend C4 in resi and would definitely not in commercial environment outside of a hotel, But that's my biased opinion but other C4 folks in here will tell you it's fine so I would definitely talk to them. I'm just not a fan in comparison to everything else.

I would recommend lower level crestron or a very basic savant system. if you really need an automation system to control everything.

EDIT: And the matrix at hooters is a big wall of buttons similar to a car stereo shop. there's buttons labeled with TV's and buttons labeled with sources you select the 2 and enter and viola you get your switch. I'm assuming you're looking for something a little more sophisticated. Possibly not as it is not a home environment and doesn't need to be?!?

"I'm just a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it"
Dahwoo is offline  
Old 09-29-2011, 04:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
stefuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Marshfield, MA, USA
Posts: 5,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I don't care what he does as long as it's before the walls are painted.
I sware that every sports bar/pub that I've ever been in has decided after the fact what to do about audio, video, phones and point of sale terminals.
I can't stand the sight of wires hanging from everything.

Also do the power calculation for LED vs plasma.

Current owner of the last/best AmPro on the planet. The mighty 4600HD, and it's still running...better than Barco's, especially southern ones.
stefuel is offline  
Old 09-29-2011, 03:50 PM
Member
 
glennzippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
There are some nice apps available now for Control4 that would make this pretty easy. Look into Blackwiredesigns to find out a little more. Also, consider somethiing like these for audio as well:

http://soundogwirelessaudio.com/

Table-top unit that the client can tune to the audio of their choice. There's another competitor out there as well that I have heard is a little better.

I think the Matrix idea is fine. I can understand the number of sources with that many TV's.

Lighting for sure can be done with C4 if you went with their dimmers or even with a Lutron system. There are drivers out for the Homeworks side now.

Colorado Media Systems
Colorado Springs, CO
glennzippy is offline  
Old 09-29-2011, 04:19 PM
Member
 
Blowne30M3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post

I don't care what he does as long as it's before the walls are painted.
I sware that every sports bar/pub that I've ever been in has decided after the fact what to do about audio, video, phones and point of sale terminals.
I can't stand the sight of wires hanging from everything.

Also do the power calculation for LED vs plasma.

Some of the reason for that is building code.

Also like someone else said, a round about budget would go miles here.

Senior Crestron Programmer
XS Design Studios
Blowne30M3 is offline  
Old 09-29-2011, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
M3AL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I really appreciate everyone's advice. My budget is $70,000. I've been quoted the system I mentioned for about $65,000.
M3AL is offline  
Old 09-30-2011, 02:19 PM
Member
 
Blowne30M3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3AL View Post

I really appreciate everyone's advice. My budget is $70,000. I've been quoted the system I mentioned for about $65,000.

Is that including installation or just equipment? If installation as well, are you contracting someone to install and how much are they going to pull from the budget? What would be your budget for just equipment? (I know that is kind of a hard question to answer as it will be a different installation cost for the gear you buy, but just rough numbers should be fine).

I can see what kind of Crestron package we can build you for your budget if possible.

Senior Crestron Programmer
XS Design Studios
Blowne30M3 is offline  
Old 09-30-2011, 03:41 PM
Member
 
holmern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
If you use something like voLANte video over IP you can scale it however you want it. Add encoders and decoders as needed. Can build your matrix to be as small/big as you want it. All you would need for each display infrastructure wise is a Cat5e and an adjacent duplex.

Two gigabit switches with enough ports to cover all your inputs/outputs would be able to handle all the traffic.Think the Cisco small business ones are like $500 for a 48 port version.

Also would avoid all HDCP issues. Can take analogue sources if needed. Can be controlled either with their software on a computer or be done with a control system.

Clear one is also coming out with their version of the same thing, but their system runs compressed video. Encoders/decoders might be a little cheaper than voLANte.

Either way.. I would definitely recommend something commercial grade for your video distribution.

holmern is offline  
Old 10-04-2011, 02:04 PM
Member
 
SweetHip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
To answer some of your Questions:

1 - Your Budget is to small for that size HDMI Matrix, Stick with a Component over cat5 solution

2 - Your Source to TV Ratio is too high to consider ZeeVee, You would paying more then a Comp. Matrix System. Zeevee Is perfect for a small place where NO control System is needed

3 - Would not recommend c4, RTI \\ Crestron will be your best bet in this size application.

4 - Would have to see the blueprints of the place and how tall the ceiling are, acoustics environment are very important as well, etc - recommend JBL speakers, Crown Amps and DBX Processor for ALL zones..

5 - Same as 4, need more info

6 - Would highly recommend commercial displays that can daisy chain 232 to allow for easy control of the displays. If that doesn't fit the budget you can do IR for each TV control, powered by a couple of connecting blocks back to the control processor.

7 - No comment, since we use SnapAv and Chief Mounts..

8 - LutronRA2 would be a perfect fit for automated lighting..

My best advice for owners doing sports bar is do it the right way the first time. If you are out of budget, do it in stages and start off whith a matrix with less TVs, Audio with less Zones and add more stuff each month after you get the doors open.

I would also Highly recommend a Digital Signage solution added to the Matrix. Your ROI would be under a yr if done right..

Let me know if you need any more info..
SweetHip is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off