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post #1 of 43 Old 02-01-2012, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I want to add video distribution to my house. I would like to use Crestron products. I don't have a Crestron control system. I have looked through their website, but have yet to find the IP protocols that I would need to integrate it into my control system. Are the protocols available to end users?
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post #2 of 43 Old 02-01-2012, 04:06 PM
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If you don't get a response here, find and call a local Crestron rep.

You may also get a response from Crestron tech support.

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post #3 of 43 Old 02-01-2012, 08:42 PM
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I can tell you that their box is OEM from Extron's MAV HDMI distribution setup. Keep poking around

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post #4 of 43 Old 02-02-2012, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Dahwoo, I can not find any 6x6 switchers from Extron. The DM-MD6x6 outputs are proprietary ethernet. Extron could make some of the internal switching components (and could build the entire unit), but I think the protocol is 100% Crestron.
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post #5 of 43 Old 02-02-2012, 11:05 AM
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The DM switchers are built in NJ by Crestron. Extron has nothing to do with them. The only way you can control them from another control system is to insert a small processor like the QM-RMC and then connect the RS-232 port to the other control system. I have done this with AMX control system to control 32X32 DM switchers.

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post #6 of 43 Old 02-02-2012, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahwoo View Post

I can tell you that their box is OEM from Extron's MAV HDMI distribution setup. Keep poking around

That is incorrect.
The DM MD6x6 is a Crestron proprietary product based on the same technology used in the DM switcher line. Although the outputs use CAT5 they are Crestron proprietary 8G+ technology.
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post #7 of 43 Old 02-02-2012, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm ok with buying a QM-RMC to make it work (although I would prefer IP control). I assume there is some configuring to be done using the QM-RMC. Would I need someone with Crestron software to set it up?

I think my receiver options would be the DM-RMC-100-C or DM-RMC-200-C. Would there be a way to send / receive IR or RS232 through those using the QM-RMC?

IF, I remember correctly, the house is wired with CAT6e. Could I use that or do I need to use the 8G+ (runs are ~75 feet)?
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post #8 of 43 Old 02-02-2012, 12:29 PM
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I guess I should have pointed out that I am relaying second hand information (maybe even poorly) but I was told this by some people who are up there in the automation world(I'd rather not say which company). And what I was told was that the basic architecture and internal control was from Extron MAV series switchers and then modified at crestron with much more emphasis then they did with their AAS media players.

But in any event, This is why I try to never relay information that I am not 100% sure about :/ Sorry if I'm incorrect.

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post #9 of 43 Old 02-02-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

I'm ok with buying a QM-RMC to make it work (although I would prefer IP control).

You can use IP to have the QM-RMC control the DM MD6x6. The QM-RMC does have a ethernet port for IP control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

I assume there is some configuring to be done using the QM-RMC. Would I need someone with Crestron software to set it up?

The QM-RMC is a 2 Series control processor and thus would be programmed as any other 2 Series control processor and yes you will need to find a Crestron programmer.

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Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

I think my receiver options would be the DM-RMC-100-C or DM-RMC-200-C. Would there be a way to send / receive IR or RS232 through those using the QM-RMC?

Sending RS-232, IP or IR would be through DM MD6x6 itself, and not the QM-RMC, to the DM-RMC.

As a side note, I would recommend the DM-RMC200-C since it has USB HID amongst other features.

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Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

IF, I remember correctly, the house is wired with CAT6e. Could I use that or do I need to use the 8G+ (runs are ~75 feet)?

This tricky. You have to make sure that the CAT6e is shielded all the way through INCLUDING the RJ45 connectors. If it's not shielded all the way through you will have issues. Here is what the Crestron 8G+ RJ45 shielded connector looks like. The RJ45 connector on you CAT6e should look similar.

Remember, if there is an issue the first thing Crestron's going to ask is if you are using Crestron 8G+ wiring. If not they will ask you to to replace your cabling before they will service you.

I HIGHLY suggest that you consult with a Crestron Certified DM engineer in planning what you want to accomplish.
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post #10 of 43 Old 02-02-2012, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

I want to add video distribution to my house. I would like to use Crestron products. I don't have a Crestron control system. I have looked through their website, but have yet to find the IP protocols that I would need to integrate it into my control system. Are the protocols available to end users?

I just thought of something. You made no mention about controlling your sources. How do you plan on accomplishing that? IE change channels on your Cable/Satellite Box, Control you DVD player, etc.

The QM-RMC has only 2 RS-232 ports and one IR port. You may want to take a look at a C2PE.

Also, what type of Crestron TP (Touch Panel) or remote are you planning on using for control or are you planning on using an iPhone, iPad, etc?
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post #11 of 43 Old 02-02-2012, 08:26 PM
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You can use UTP for 8G. The problem is that if there is a wall termination of the cat 6, you cannot use jumpers to/from the 6x6 and the room box.

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post #12 of 43 Old 02-03-2012, 11:08 AM
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I recently got some transmitters/receivers to test the 8G+ and how it runs over UTP in "non optimal" situations.

This is the current route of the signal:
BluRay to a wall plate (Connection point #1)
Wall plate trough the attic to an On-Q closet with a punch block (#2)
Cat5 between two punch blocks (#3 & #4)
From second punch block to the 8G+ receiver.(#5)

Works just fine. Granted the total cable run is not more than maybe 60' and not the 300' max, it still shows that it is possible to go trough wall plate/patch panels and still make it work. Not recommended.. but still possible.

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post #13 of 43 Old 02-03-2012, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holmern View Post

I recently got some transmitters/receivers to test the 8G+ and how it runs over UTP in "non optimal" situations.

This is the current route of the signal:
BluRay to a wall plate (Connection point #1)
Wall plate trough the attic to an On-Q closet with a punch block (#2)
Cat5 between two punch blocks (#3 & #4)
From second punch block to the 8G+ receiver.(#5)

Works just fine. Granted the total cable run is not more than maybe 60' and not the 300' max, it still shows that it is possible to go trough wall plate/patch panels and still make it work. Not recommended.. but still possible.

This not a configuration that crestron would reccomend or even support. Crestron has strict guidlines on how to impliment a DM system inncluding wiring.

This absolutly the wrong way to wire for DM.
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post #14 of 43 Old 02-03-2012, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Delicious View Post

This not a configuration that crestron would reccomend or even support. Crestron has strict guidlines on how to impliment a DM system inncluding wiring.

This absolutly the wrong way to wire for DM.

I said it was possible. I didn't say it was recommended. I specifically said it was not recommended.

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post #15 of 43 Old 02-04-2012, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't need a control system (already have that), just a protocol (RS232, USB, IP, and IR are all usable solutions) to access the Crestron products.

I would like to send and receive IR at the TV locations (the equipment rack already integrated within my current system) through the DM RMC 100/200's. Is this possible? If not, I have other options...

How much programming will I need from a Crestron installer (I was hoping for zero) to get a usable protocol fro my current control system?

Is PoE part of DM 8G+ ?

What are the advantages of having the DM RMC 200 C over the 100 (I was only considering them for some locations for the amplifier)? What would you do with the features someone already mentioned?
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post #16 of 43 Old 02-05-2012, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

I don't need a control system (already have that), just a protocol (RS232, USB, IP, and IR are all usable solutions) to access the Crestron products.

You will have a lot of difficulty controlling Crestron from another "automation" system. Crestron does not have a protocol, i.e. RS232, IP, and IR, that you you can use in another system to control a Crestron system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

I would like to send and receive IR at the TV locations (the equipment rack already integrated within my current system) through the DM RMC 100/200's. Is this possible?

Yes. This is what the DM system is designed to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

How much programming will I need from a Crestron installer (I was hoping for zero) to get a usable protocol fro my current control system?

Again, you will not be able to control a Crestron system or any Crestron product form another control system. As far as programming cost goes that depends on what you want done, what type of interface you plan to use (Crestron TP, iPad, iPhone, etc.) and how detailed you want your graphics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

Is PoE part of DM 8G+ ?

Only when actually using a DM switcher, i.e a DM 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, etc. A DM MD will not support PoE. (Side Note - You can use a PoE injector at the DM-RMC end such as a Crestron PWE-4803RU in order to get PoE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

What are the advantages of having the DM RMC 200 C over the 100 (I was only considering them for some locations for the amplifier)? What would you do with the features someone already mentioned?

One advantage is the 200C has a USB HID port. Meaning you can attach a keyboard and mouse to the DM RMC 200 and control a computer or any other device that is USB HID compliant.
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post #17 of 43 Old 02-05-2012, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Earlier in the thread, it was stated that a QM-RMC would allow control from another system. I am not changing control systems. If I can't use the parts with another system, I will just buy something else...

If I can get a DM 8x8 (POE is probably worth it to me), (2) DM RMC 200 C, (1 or 2) DM RMC 100 C all controlled via my current system with a QM-RMC (or another that would support IP control) I am sold...

If I can get two way IR from the RMC 200/100's, it would be a bonus. If not, it is something I can work around.

Is this going to work for me?
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post #18 of 43 Old 02-05-2012, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

Earlier in the thread, it was stated that a QM-RMC would allow control from another system. I am not changing control systems. If I can't use the parts with another system, I will just buy something else...

As a Crestron Dealer, Programer and DM Engineer I will tell you to buy something else.

The type hodgepodge system you are trying to create will be a PITA. You will have to find a dealer/programmer who has time on their hands and needs the job, i.e.$$, to take on this type of system.

There are more issues I can think of that you will have then I care to write. One for instance is support. What if there is an issue with the system who is responsible? Who is going to trouble shoot to find out if it's an issue with your current control systems hardware, software, firmware or programming or if it's an issue with the Crestron side of things, hardware, software, firmware or programming? Is it a combination of both? What about future firmware/software updates? What if the updates cause the 2 systems to stop communicating or worse yet the updates make it so it no longer works at all? You really need to think this through.

As I stated above, as a Crestron Dealer, Programer and DM Engineer I will tell you to buy something else.

Good luck.
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post #19 of 43 Old 02-06-2012, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Any alternative equipment suggestions?
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post #20 of 43 Old 02-06-2012, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

Any alternative equipment suggestions?

See what your current automation solution provides? Something that will work with what you already have.
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post #21 of 43 Old 02-06-2012, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

Any alternative equipment suggestions?

Atlona 8x8 HDMI Matrix Switch

This one is 8x8 rather than 6x6 like the Crestron one but should be much easier for implementation. I'd assume it will be much cheaper than the Crestron switch b/c I don't believe that one comes with the input and output cards which will be extra. The Atlona switch uses HDBaseT which is what Crestron uses in their DM 8G+ products though Crestron I believe adds in some proprietary IP to the HDBaseT standard.

I haven't tried this product but I'm using a monoprice HDBaseT extender that has been working very well.
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post #22 of 43 Old 02-07-2012, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktrdsl23 View Post

Atlona 8x8 HDMI Matrix Switch

. . . . The Atlona switch uses HDBaseT which is what Crestron uses in their DM 8G+ products. . .

FYI - Crestrons entire DM line uses Crestrons proprietary DM technology. It does NOT use or include HDBaseT technology in any DM products.
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post #23 of 43 Old 02-07-2012, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Delicious View Post

FYI - Crestrons entire DM line uses Crestrons proprietary DM technology. It does NOT use or include HDBaseT technology in any DM products.

Is their technology a derivative of HDBaseT? I could have sworn I ready somewhere that Crestron is one of the supporters of HDBaseT and is using it (or a subset) in their DM line.

--Edit--
Found this:
http://hdbaset.org/files/Static%20Pa...%20Seminar.pdf

GoGo, based on this document I'm assuming your original comment was a mistake b/c this makes it sound like DM is simply an HDBaseT implementation. One of the slides even says that Digital Media is the established leader in HDBaseT. I do see them referencing 8G so it could be that 8G+ is something else but I don't really know.
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post #24 of 43 Old 02-07-2012, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktrdsl23 View Post

Is their technology a derivative of HDBaseT? I could have sworn I ready somewhere that Crestron is one of the supporters of HDBaseT and is using it (or a subset) in their DM line.

--Edit--
Found this:
http://hdbaset.org/files/Static%20Pa...%20Seminar.pdf

GoGo, based on this document I'm assuming your original comment was a mistake b/c this makes it sound like DM is simply an HDBaseT implementation. One of the slides even says that Digital Media is the established leader in HDBaseT. I do see them referencing 8G so it could be that 8G+ is something else but I don't really know.

I forwarded the PDF to the person that manages the DM line and asked if Crestron uses HDBaseT. We have been told repeatedly by Crestron that although Crestron belongs to the HDBaseT consortium, HDBaseT technology is not used in DM products. Once I receive a response I will follow up.
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post #25 of 43 Old 02-07-2012, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Delicious View Post

I forwarded the PDF to the person that manages the DM line and asked if Crestron uses HDBaseT. We have been told repeatedly by Crestron that although Crestron belongs to the HDBaseT consortium, HDBaseT technology is not used in DM products. Once I receive a response I will follow up.

Cool. I found another link that you may want to forward to your contact:

http://www.valens-semi.com/newsroom/...comm-2010.aspx

Valens is of course the company that developed the HDBaseT technology.

Thanks for checking on this.

--Edit--
One final link

http://www.crestron.com/about/press_...elease_id=1524

This press release is telling since at the end it uses the magic 330ft. so it seems highly likely that Crestron is using HDBaseT in the DM cable. Your contact might be referring to using DM over Fiber which I'm guessing is outside of the HDBaseT world.
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post #26 of 43 Old 02-07-2012, 10:30 PM
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no need to speculate:
http://www.hdbaset.org/about_us/membership_list

HDBaseT is a nice technology, about time the industry got away from the HDMI con.
HDMI is weak, you cant run it, you cant terminate it...
The idea of a connector inducing a royalty just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
And how about all that time HDMI cables were like 20$ a yard? effin' ridiculous.
Ill be glad to ring the death of HDMI.



But what I think the real headline on this thread is that Crestron is using EXTRON hardware!!! yikes... now thats how bad rumors start...
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post #27 of 43 Old 02-08-2012, 09:27 AM
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From a Crestron Press Release (about 2/3s of the way down): http://www.crestron.com/training/man...?event_id=1176

"With a full line of switchers, transmitters, room boxes, and scalers, DM integrates virtually every combination of sources and end points. Since Crestron DM integrates HDBaseT technology, the future of systems integration is now even more exciting as electronics manufacturers adopt HDBaseT into their own products."


I attended this DMC-E class, and while I don't recall the exact details, at least some of the DM product/spec was stated as being developed using or in conjunction with the HDBaseT standard/equipment.
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post #28 of 43 Old 02-08-2012, 01:42 PM
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Ok so I talked the Crestron DM development guys in NJ. and they stated that "ONLY the 8G+ input/output cards and Room Controllers (DM RMC's) contain a form of HDBaseT technology."

They also went on to state that "the HDBaseT technology used with in the 8G+ product line is not the same technology as the current HDBaseT specifications being use by other manufactures to create HDBaseT products. If you try to introduce an HDBaseT standards hardware product into a Crestron DM system it will not work."

As far as the rest of the DM line there is NO HDBaseT technology. Only the 8G+ products, 8G+ Input/Output Cards, 8G+ DM RMC's and the DM MD6x4 &6x6, contain a form of HDBaseT.

Hope that clears it up.
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post #29 of 43 Old 02-08-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Delicious View Post

Ok so I talked the Crestron DM development guys in NJ. and they stated that "ONLY the 8G+ input/output cards and Room Controllers (DM RMC's) contain a form of HDBaseT technology."

They also went on to state that "the HDBaseT technology used with in the 8G+ product line is not the same technology as the current HDBaseT specifications being use by other manufactures to create HDBaseT products. If you try to introduce an HDBaseT standards hardware product into a Crestron DM system it will not work."

As far as the rest of the DM line there is NO HDBaseT technology. Only the 8G+ products, 8G+ Input/Output Cards, 8G+ DM RMC's and the DM MD6x4 &6x6, contain a form of HDBaseT.

Hope that clears it up.

Thanks for the follow-up.

It almost sounds to me like Crestron's implementation is more of a way to lock individuals to Crestron's hardware rather than an improvement of the technology. I would of course understand why they'd want to give off the impression of the latter.
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post #30 of 43 Old 02-09-2012, 01:58 PM
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to clarify (i work for atlona)

Valens makes the chipset that allows all of this to happen.

Atlona, Crestron (DM8G+) Extron (XTP line) and Amx and many others all use that chipset.

having the chipset does not make it HDBaseT. extron adds a layer on top for their use as do some others. so the extron as an example is not HDBaseT compatible at this point in time. they may choose to make it compatible in some way down the road, but that is their choice.

DM8G+ walks an odd line. Crestron does not call it HDBaseT, BUT they say that it is COMPATIBLE. which leads me to believe that it may be... but that is their choice to state one way or the other.

Atlona is making ours HDBaseT.

All HDBaseT uses the Valens Chipset.
Just using the Valens Chipset DOES NOT mean that you are HDBaseT.

Proud Daddy to Anastasia and Christopher.
Born October 26 2005.

Ob was the delivery doc.

Since i cannot rant on a soapbox in the town square...
http://commonsensehasdied.blogspot.com/
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