RadioRA 2 Software, Any Installers Not Nearby? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 69 Old 03-10-2012, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I understand:
  • the RadioRA 2 design and programming software is unavailable to consumers;
  • certified installers/dealers have access to the software and are able to provide it to customers if they choose; and
  • installers/dealers that are not nearby my location would not be able to have me as a custom install customer.
As a result, I am looking for installers/dealers that have access to the software and would be willing to provide it to me if I buy hardware from them. Understanding I wouldn't get any support from them, it seems to be in their best interest to sell to me. Does anyone know of any such installers/dealers (not in Indianapolis)? Please either reply or PM if you know of any! Thanks!

UPDATE: I received PMs from several dealers and now have a system and software in compliance with the license agreement. Anyone in a similar situation, feel free to PM me and I can let you know what to do. I certainly recommend sticking with and supporting your dealer.
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post #2 of 69 Old 03-11-2012, 01:26 PM
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It's just a suggestion but why don't you take the class yourself? It would obviously be useful, it would also let you assist others that are in your current situation.
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post #3 of 69 Old 03-11-2012, 03:57 PM
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Dealers are contractually not allowed to give the software to end users.

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post #4 of 69 Old 03-11-2012, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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My understanding is that they can give the software to the end users (or at least it is very common) following an installation. I would be happy to go to a session, but there aren't any anywhere nearby. It would be great if Hank's Electrical could do a WebEx or something similar.
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post #5 of 69 Old 03-11-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schalliol View Post

My understanding is that they can give the software to the end users (or at least it is very common) following an installation. I would be happy to go to a session, but there aren't any anywhere nearby. It would be great if Hank's Electrical could do a WebEx or something similar.

I believe you have misunderstood. I know of no dealer who leaves the software. Sometimes we have to travel too, I've sent my guys all over the U.S. for trainings, and I do a ton of traveling for trainings and shows as well. If you want a system, why can't you pay a dealer to come put it in? Your willing to buy hardware from them, and it's " your understanding" they leave software afterwords. You said its in someone's best interest to sell to you, so whomever told you they leave software is who you need to install yours.
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post #6 of 69 Old 03-11-2012, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmaxbrod View Post

I believe you have misunderstood. I know of no dealer who leaves the software. Sometimes we have to travel too, I've sent my guys all over the U.S. for trainings, and I do a ton of traveling for trainings and shows as well. If you want a system, why can't you pay a dealer to come put it in? Your willing to buy hardware from them, and it's " your understanding" they leave software afterwords. You said its in someone's best interest to sell to you, so whomever told you they leave software is who you need to install yours.

You can take a look through this forum and find many people who have had installers leave software for consumers. I am unaware of the license agreement, as I am not a dealer, but people report that installers indicate they can leave the software for the consumer within the license terms. The short of it is that I am interested in the products but not the installation services. I will not be a customer with installation costs as they are, and I have fairly knowledge of configuring similar systems and can do the minimal configuration I need (I just want to set-up dusk/dawn right now). I would be happy to attend a session online, like Hank's Electrical offers in person (I'd even pay something). I understand that many companies do not wish to do what I am requesting, and I understand why they do not. Clearly yours is one of those. To note, I have "sold" a number of people on custom installed systems that custom installers install and program, and I've been a CEDIA member in the past. So, those that are out there and interested, I look forward to your PM!
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post #7 of 69 Old 03-11-2012, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg C View Post

Dealers are contractually not allowed to give the software to end users.

Is this the case for Lutron?
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post #8 of 69 Old 03-11-2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schalliol View Post


I am unaware of the license agreement, as I am not a dealer, but people report that installers indicate they can leave the software for the consumer within the license terms.

Are any of these reports about Lutron or is this a blanket statement about all companies?


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Originally Posted by schalliol View Post

The short of it is that I am interested in the products but not the installation services. I will not be a customer with installation costs as they are.

Are you willing to pay msrp? Irregardless of the training being local or not, taking training for a product is an investment. Usually this requires a return on it or what is the point?

If by chance you are willing to pay the dealer something more than cost you should state that instead of sounding like an "undesirable" customer. If this post gave me the confidence that you would pay me something for the time your going to consume with getting product, sending product, blah blah blah I would definitely try and help you out.
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post #9 of 69 Old 03-11-2012, 07:24 PM
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Lutron does not allow us to give out the software to clients. Neither does Crestron, AMX, C4, URC, RTI.

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post #10 of 69 Old 03-11-2012, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schalliol View Post

My understanding is that they can give the software to the end users (or at least it is very common) following an installation. I would be happy to go to a session, but there aren't any anywhere nearby. It would be great if Hank's Electrical could do a WebEx or something similar.

This is not a correct understanding. Lutron does not endorse or even allow it.
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post #11 of 69 Old 03-24-2012, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg C View Post

Lutron does not allow us to give out the software to clients.

Then please explain why Lutron has a homeowner version of their homeworks software available to homeowners. Now maybe this is just for homeworks, but the EULA for both homeworks and RadioRA2 software are similar.

Please do not send me PM's asking for software! You will not get it.
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post #12 of 69 Old 03-24-2012, 06:30 PM
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Lutron, and many other manufacturers, walk a narrow line to keep consumers and Installers happy. Understand that it's very difficult for them.

I heard a rumor about online training, to obtain sw.

I think Lutron is trying to compete with zwave, for market share.

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post #13 of 69 Old 03-25-2012, 04:12 AM
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This isn't about the manufacturer as much as it is about dealers. I don't know what Lutron's RadioRA software policy is, but I can read an EULA and it does not prohibit end users from possessing it.

And I do know Lutron has a homeowner version of their Homeworks software. It is the same software with the pricing information removed, so it is not crippled.

Too many dealers hide behind Lutron because they are worried that a DIY'r might get access to software and not call them.

Please do not send me PM's asking for software! You will not get it.
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post #14 of 69 Old 03-25-2012, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan View Post

This isn't about the manufacturer as much as it is about dealers. I don't know what Lutron's RadioRA software policy is, but I can read an EULA and it does not prohibit end users from possessing it.

Seen the same thing for RR2 software. It specifically notes that dealers can provide software to "the homeowner." I got PMs from several dealers and have a system and software. Anyone in the same boat I was in can PM me and I can let you know what to do.
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post #15 of 69 Old 03-25-2012, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan View Post


Too many dealers hide behind Lutron because they are worried that a DIY'r might get access to software and not call them.

Uh, not true at all really. We are concerned Lutron might call us. Also a vantage dealer here. I had a customer that was pretty adamant about getting the software. Vantage also has their software with pricing stripped, but I still had to jump through hoops to get approval to release it to the customer.

Two big reasons mfg's don't like to release software are:
1) support. They don't like to have their support resources bogged down by personnel that wouldn't be calling if they had attended training.
20-80 rule applies here. AMX has even done analysis and found that the dealers who do the lowest volume annually, big their support resources the most because they aren't as knowledgeable/proficient. Now think about someone with no training trying to implement.

2) reputation. They don't want someone trying to implement a system that doesn't have the tools to do so, who will then go and bash the product saying it's flawed...when really it is them just not knowing what they are doing.

I'm sure there are many other reasons, but those are the two I've heard the most.

As a dealer, I'm not going to release these pieces of software without explicit permission from the manufacturer. There is no one customer that is worth me risking my ability to represent any particular brand.

Opinions by other dealers will vary of course.

As an FYI, I always leave the programmed file or "code" behind with the customer, that way they have full flexibility in choosing who will continue to support them.
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post #16 of 69 Old 03-25-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by alexsquared View Post

Uh, not true at all really. We are concerned Lutron might call us.

As a dealer, I'm not going to release these pieces of software without explicit permission from the manufacturer. There is no one customer that is worth me risking my ability to represent any particular brand.

Why would Lutron call you when they put a link to the Homeowner software on the front page of their dealer site? If that is not explicit permission, I have no idea what would satisfy you.
LL

Please do not send me PM's asking for software! You will not get it.
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post #17 of 69 Old 03-25-2012, 02:45 PM
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Just a FYI for anyone reading this thread, there is currently no Homeowner software available for Lutron Homeworks QS or RadioRa 2 systems. Only Homeworks Interactive and Illumination.

The best way to set your end user up with some level of control would be the iPad app allowing editing of scenes and time clock modes.
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post #18 of 69 Old 03-25-2012, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bradkas View Post

just a fyi for anyone reading this thread, there is currently no homeowner software available for lutron homeworks qs or radiora 2 systems. Only homeworks interactive and illumination.

The best way to set your end user up with some level of control would be the ipad app allowing editing of scenes and time clock modes.

x2
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post #19 of 69 Old 03-26-2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradKas View Post

Just a FYI for anyone reading this thread, there is currently no Homeowner software available for Lutron Homeworks QS or RadioRa 2 systems. Only Homeworks Interactive and Illumination.

While this is true, there is NOTHING in the EULA that prohibits homeowners from using the software.

From the RadioRA2 software EULA:

Quote:
RADIORA® 2 SOFTWARE END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT
By installing, copying, or using the software you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions of this license agreement. If you do not agree to be bound, do not use this software. This Software End User License Agreement ("License Agreement") is a legal agreement between you, as the end user ("End User"), and Lutron Electronics Co., Inc. ("Lutron") for the Lutron software supplied with the RADIORA® 2 lighting control system, which includes computer software and may include associated media and documentation (including, e.g., print materials and on-line or electronic documentation) (collectively, the "Software").

GRANT OF LICENSE
Lutron grants to the End User a nonexclusive license to use the Software subject to the terms and conditions herein.

LICENSE RESTRICTIONS
The End User may use the Software only on a single computer connected to a RADIORA® 2 system, or a system expressly approved and authorized by Lutron in writing.

The End User may transfer all of its rights under this License Agreement, along with the Software and the server, if any, on which the Software is installed to the purchaser of the real estate to which the lighting control system is affixed, provided that the other party agrees to be bound by the terms and conditions of this License Agreement. Transfer of such rights automatically terminates the license of the transferor. The End User may not sublicense, sell, rent or lease the Software to others, or otherwise transfer or assign the right to use the Software, except as stated in this paragraph.

The End User may not decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer, or in any way modify the Software without the prior written consent of Lutron, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law, notwithstanding this provision.

Now one could argue that the "End User" would be the dealer, but then read the red highlighted text. Why would a dealer transfer his rights in a real estate transaction? He would not. In fact under the heading LICENSE RESTRICTIONS the only restriction is limited to one computer that is connected to a RadioRA2 system.

Now look at a provision in the Crestron EULA:

Quote:
OTHER LIMITATIONS
You must be an Authorized Dealer of Crestron products or a Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer to install or use the Software. If Your status as a Crestron Authorized Dealer or Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer is terminated, Your license is also terminated.

Very clear that it is for dealers only.

FYI, both of these EULA's are easily found online.

Please do not send me PM's asking for software! You will not get it.
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post #20 of 69 Old 03-26-2012, 07:06 PM
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My comments have nothing to do with the discussion regarding the ethics of giving the end user the software. I just wanted to clarify for and end users/DIY users that there is on fact no home owner software other than what I mentioned. I felt that was unclear in other posts in the thread.

While on the subject I personally have no issues leaving the Lutron software to any of our clients should they ask, but you gotta pay if you wanna play. Sone random guy on the internet can fly a kite for all I care. Typically there is a strong level of trust between us and our clients that they want our guidance and input when making a change to their system.
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post #21 of 69 Old 03-27-2012, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradKas View Post

While on the subject I personally have no issues leaving the Lutron software to any of our clients should they ask, but you gotta pay if you wanna play. Sone random guy on the internet can fly a kite for all I care. Typically there is a strong level of trust between us and our clients that they want our guidance and input when making a change to their system.

I think this is the perfect example of how dealers should think. You will provide it to a client if they ask. How you might define a client is not clear, but you are not hiding behind the transparent shield of "the manufacturer won't allow it."

Please note my signature. I used to get a couple of PM's a month asking for software, mainly URC and Lutron. Not one person has gotten it.

Please do not send me PM's asking for software! You will not get it.
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post #22 of 69 Old 03-28-2012, 06:09 PM
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No Lutron Dealer should be handing out the software. Sorry it is for Dealers only.
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post #23 of 69 Old 03-29-2012, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVDCI View Post

No Lutron Dealer should be handing out the software. Sorry it is for Dealers only.

Then why do they 1) Make a Homeowner version of Illumination and 2) Not limit its possession to authorized dealers like Crestron does via the EULA?

Please do not send me PM's asking for software! You will not get it.
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post #24 of 69 Old 03-29-2012, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradKas View Post


While on the subject I personally have no issues leaving the Lutron software to any of our clients should they ask, but you gotta pay if you wanna play. Sone random guy on the internet can fly a kite for all I care. Typically there is a strong level of trust between us and our clients that they want our guidance and input when making a change to their system.

Couldn't have said it better, I'll add a couple as well.

1) The system is properly designed, installed and programmed before the customer makes changes.
2) Neither the manufacturer or dealer are associated with a bad install, eliminating bad reputation from untrained idiots.
3) If I have to take training to get the product from a distributor that I give more money to then I take home, you can bet your ass that I'm going to make a stink if randoms can troll there way to the software.
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post #25 of 69 Old 03-30-2012, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knowinnothin View Post

Couldn't have said it better, I'll add a couple as well.

1) The system is properly designed, installed and programmed before the customer makes changes.
2) Neither the manufacturer or dealer are associated with a bad install, eliminating bad reputation from untrained idiots.

I understand what you are saying, but I will put my self taught install up against any Sparky who comes out of the Homeworks Qualification course, including programming.

Please do not send me PM's asking for software! You will not get it.
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post #26 of 69 Old 03-30-2012, 06:37 AM
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Bring it on boyo.
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post #27 of 69 Old 03-30-2012, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay everyone, I think the points of view are out there now. Not sure the discussion needs to devolve further.
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post #28 of 69 Old 03-30-2012, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan View Post


I understand what you are saying, but I will put my self taught install up against any Sparky who comes out of the Homeworks Qualification course, including programming.

Are you an occupier?
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post #29 of 69 Old 03-31-2012, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan View Post

I understand what you are saying, but I will put my self taught install up against any Sparky who comes out of the Homeworks Qualification course, including programming.

One critical difference I've found between an self-taught owner and a "qualified" technician is familiarity. The owners think they know how they want the systems to operate (but can't always articulate it). A tech often doesn't have that same level of understanding. The owners also often make leaps that the underlying technology can't support. That and there's not enough time taken by the owner and the tech to get a fully fleshed out understanding made clear. Then there's the cost factor of time spent getting everything thought out and planned. All too often the owners are left with the impression that the monies they've spent are being wasted on a tech that just doesn't grasp the desired effects. And lets not leave out the salesman that greatly oversold the possibilities without properly estimating the complexities and costs associated with them.

This happens with all sorts of stuff, not just home automation products.

I suppose it all comes down to planning and communicating, and the lack thereof.

Meanwhile it's proved useful to be able to 'obtain' software for the purpose of doing some fine tuning or what-if alternatives. It's rarely been a serious obstacle getting it. Yes, it would be nice to be able to get it without a lot of screwing around.

But if it were 'freely available' the vendor would most likely incur a TREMENDOUS amount of support hassles. Joe Shmoe calling up with fantastically stupid newbie questions eats up WAY too much time and money. Filtering that nonsense through the local dealers helps keep support costs from getting out of hand. Better to educate the resellers and have them pass it on. Trouble is a lot of them don't do a good job of this.

In the past I've found it useful to find out when a vendor is doing regional training seminars and to take them myself. More often than not they're free, other than my time and expense of getting there. But even when there's a cost it's usually still less than what I'd have to spend on a half-wit "installer" and some slick salesman. I do try working with local resellers whenever possible, but not to the point of wasting my time and money just for the sake of supporting some vendors notions about what is or isn't "right". Bottom line is they want to sell products as cost effectively as possible. I'm glad to do my part and buy what works for me. The hardest part is nailing down just how well a product can or can't do what I want. And FAR too often local resellers end up being more of an IMPEDIMENT to my gaining that understanding.

So play along with the game, eventually you find a reseller that grasps how to make the sale.
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post #30 of 69 Old 04-01-2012, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradKas View Post

Bring it on boyo.

Anytime

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmaxbrod View Post

Are you an occupier?

?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

One critical difference I've found between an self-taught owner and a "qualified" technician is familiarity. The owners think they know how they want the systems to operate (but can't always articulate it). A tech often doesn't have that same level of understanding. The owners also often make leaps that the underlying technology can't support. That and there's not enough time taken by the owner and the tech to get a fully fleshed out understanding made clear. Then there's the cost factor of time spent getting everything thought out and planned.

Well said. I know my first attempt was not spectacular, but I knew what I wanted. So I kept at it until I got it where I wanted it. And every once in a while I will decide I want to be able to do something a little differently and I do it. It didn't happen overnight, but I can guarantee that my system is programmed better for me that anyone else could have done.

Please do not send me PM's asking for software! You will not get it.
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