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post #1 of 39 Old 05-10-2012, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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RE: Tuxedo Touch Connected Home Controller w/ built in web server. The thermostats in my house connect to this piece via Z-Wave.

I need an explanation of the below and which is simplest and least costly (and reliable):

Connect outside the network using:
1. Static IP address
2. DDNS Service and Port Forwarding
3. Dynamic IP and Port forwarding


I'm not a computer guy and my installers where are summer home is are not up on things as much as I'd like.

Basically what I'd like to know is what are #2 and #3 options?

I attached screen shots from the set up guide
http://library.ademconet.com/MWT/fs2/9/5454.pdf

Thanks!!!!
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post #2 of 39 Old 05-10-2012, 11:49 AM
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A very basic explanation....obviously, with a static IP address, it does not change, so if you are trying to remote into the address, the number is set.

With a dynamic IP address, the address may change each time you connect to the Internet, or at certain time intervals. Dynamic IP addresses are the normal customer access method used by most ISPs or Service Providers.

Given this, something has to keep track of the IP address. This is where the DDNS service comes into play. A DDNS service will map a services to a dynamic IP address by constantly monitoring and changing the addresses in the DNS. So when your IP changes, it updates the DNS and the domain name now points to your new IP. There are both free and pay services..and the process if fairly standard.

In both cases, the IP address will be the IP address of the router. The router needs to know what to do with the data...so you need to tell the router where to send it (to your thermostat). This is set up via port forwarding in the router. All you need to know is what the IP address of the thermostat is, and what port the thermostat is listening on (6280 from the .pdf you attached). This is set up from the router's configuration webpage, and is again a very standard thing to do.

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post #3 of 39 Old 05-10-2012, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the detailed explanation.

If I use a DDNS service, is there a lot of maintenance with it? I want really to set it up once and not have to delve into the computer to fix things if I get a failure. Or is it set it up once and forget it?

Thanks!@

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post #4 of 39 Old 05-10-2012, 01:17 PM
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It should be pretty much set it and forget it. You may also check with the local ISP to see if they offer static IP's. Some do, but they may charge more for it.

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post #5 of 39 Old 05-10-2012, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoram View Post

It should be pretty much set it and forget it. You may also check with the local ISP to see if they offer static IP's. Some do, but they may charge more for it.

Last thing... This is a small internet company in northern Michigan. If I use DDNS, I think I read somewhere about potential problems if the ISP is too infrequently "updating of the ISP DNS tables". Is this a real world issue or is a static IP the best way to go??

Thanks again!

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post #6 of 39 Old 05-10-2012, 03:13 PM
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When a home network (an intranet) is connected to the outside world (the internet) there is a device, called a "router" by many, involved. Are you familiar with that?

This device will often include support for DDNS. For instance my device (SonicWall) supports the DDNS provider DynDNS. So when my "public" IP address changes the updated information is sent to DynDNS keeping everything in sync. It also insures that the updates occur at regular intervals as required by DynDNS.

A static IP makes things a bit simpler but will likely cost more.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #7 of 39 Old 05-11-2012, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

When a home network (an intranet) is connected to the outside world (the internet) there is a device, called a "router" by many, involved. Are you familiar with that?

This device will often include support for DDNS. For instance my device (SonicWall) supports the DDNS provider DynDNS. So when my "public" IP address changes the updated information is sent to DynDNS keeping everything in sync. It also insures that the updates occur at regular intervals as required by DynDNS.

A static IP makes things a bit simpler but will likely cost more.

OK, so even though my ISP is very small (dish), DDNS should be reliable? I'm waiting on a response as to whether they even offer a static IP.

Thanks so much.

Jeff

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post #8 of 39 Old 05-11-2012, 01:02 PM
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Your ISP does what they normally do - they have no interaction with the DDNS provider.

Your ISP may, from time to time, change your public IP address. It's the "router" (or sometimes a small program running on a PC on your network) that notices the change and updates the information needed by the DDNS provider.

It is simplest if you have a "router" that handles the DDNS updating - so if your current "router" doesn't support DDNS then you may want to invest in one that does. If you have to run a program on a PC then that's just one more thing to worry about.

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post #9 of 39 Old 05-11-2012, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

Your ISP does what the normally do - they have no interaction with the DDNS provider.

Your ISP may, from time to time, change your public IP address. It's the "router" (or sometimes a small program running on a PC on your network) that notices the change and updates the information needed by the DDNS provider.

It is simplest if you have a "router" that handles the DDNS updating - so if your current "router" doesn't support DDNS then you may want to invest in one that does. If you have to run a program on a PC then that's just one more thing to worry about.

Great advice! This is a vacation home and there is no PC there.

That's great you can buy a router w/ DDNS updating. So no need for a permanent PC on the premises - just program the router and forget it? My DLINK router at home has DDNS support I just noticed but it says I need to purchase a domain name? Is this true?

Could you recommend a reliable model?

Thanks so much!

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post #10 of 39 Old 05-11-2012, 06:50 PM
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Jeff,

Technically a static IP address is best but a dynamic DNS should work just fine for you and will probably be cheaper and more painless because you won't have to spend 2 hours on the phone dealing with your ISP ;-).

There are any number of dynamic DNS services but the most well known one, rock solid reliable, with built in support in many routers is http://dyn.com/dns/. You should not need to purchase a domain name, you'll get a free domain address supplied to you by DynDys.

I have a commercial account with DynDys but I think the main issue with free accounts is that you have to log into their website every 90 days or something like that or they delete the account. So just go for their ~$20 a year package and you won't have to deal with that. It even supports several addresses so you could set it up for more than one home.

http://dyn.com/dns/dyndns-pro/
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post #11 of 39 Old 05-11-2012, 07:12 PM
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Well I use SonicWall but many people don't want to spend that much for home use. So perhaps you should contact DynDns and see if they have a list of routers that offer support.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #12 of 39 Old 05-11-2012, 11:43 PM
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Every major router brand I know of supports it, Linksys, Netgear, Belkin and DLink to name a few. Obviously do your due diligence, I don't know every model on the market .
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post #13 of 39 Old 05-12-2012, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Haddad View Post

Jeff,

Technically a static IP address is best but a dynamic DNS should work just fine for you and will probably be cheaper and more painless because you won't have to spend 2 hours on the phone dealing with your ISP ;-).

There are any number of dynamic DNS services but the most well known one, rock solid reliable, with built in support in many routers is http://dyn.com/dns/. You should not need to purchase a domain name, you'll get a free domain address supplied to you by DynDys.

I have a commercial account with DynDys but I think the main issue with free accounts is that you have to log into their website every 90 days or something like that or they delete the account. So just go for their ~$20 a year package and you won't have to deal with that. It even supports several addresses so you could set it up for more than one home.

http://dyn.com/dns/dyndns-pro/

OK. Great advice. Thanks for the note on a $20/yr account. Awesome!

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post #14 of 39 Old 05-19-2012, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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OK>Setting up DYN DNS acct. It is free with a DLINK router DYN DNS service.

It asks for 3 things after I created an account at the 'ADD HOST' page:


HOST NAME: (created that)
BROWWSER IP ADDRESS: Got this
*NEW IP ADDRESS - not sure about this? Is this the place to put the IP address of the thermostat that I can see in my router device info page (e.g. 192.168.0.xxx)?

Thanks!!

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post #15 of 39 Old 05-19-2012, 09:59 PM
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Can you post a screenshot Jeff so I can see what you are referring to? The only thing you should have to do is enter a host name, then click on "your current locations IP address is" to auto-fill that field, and you should be good to go, no other IP address field to fill out. From there anything additional can be done within your router with port forwarding so that when you connect to the router via DynDys you get directed to the device you want such as the thermostat.

My guess is this is some type of system with D-Link that is automating the port forwarding aspect of it and perhaps it's asking you for the IP address of the thermostat.
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post #16 of 39 Old 05-20-2012, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Haddad View Post

Can you post a screenshot Jeff so I can see what you are referring to? The only thing you should have to do is enter a host name, then click on "your current locations IP address is" to auto-fill that field, and you should be good to go, no other IP address field to fill out. From there anything additional can be done within your router with port forwarding so that when you connect to the router via DynDys you get directed to the device you want such as the thermostat.

My guess is this is some type of system with D-Link that is automating the port forwarding aspect of it and perhaps it's asking you for the IP address of the thermostat.

OK. Here is what I see.

Line 1. I assume I make up a name
Line 2: supplied by DLINK
Line 3. Unsure (IP of thermostat on the DLINK status page)

Thanks!
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post #17 of 39 Old 05-20-2012, 07:12 AM
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You want to enter your current WAN IP address. Although this is (in your case) dynamic - they want you to enter it here to get the initial HOST record created on the DNS server.

Then you need to setup your router DDNS "client" so it keeps this IP address up to date as your WAN IP address changes.

To access a computer or device on your LAN using this HOST name you will need to setup (on your router) port forwarding. Port forwarding is what allows you to use this single HOST name to access more than one computer or device on your LAN.

Do you need clarification on how port forwarding works?

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post #18 of 39 Old 05-20-2012, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

You want to enter your current WAN IP address. Although this is (in your case) dynamic - they want you to enter it here to get the initial HOST record created on the DNS server.

Then you need to setup your router DDNS "client" so it keeps this IP address up to date as your WAN IP address changes.

To access a computer or device on your LAN using this HOST name you will need to setup (on your router) port forwarding. Port forwarding is what allows you to use this single HOST name to access more than one computer or device on your LAN.

Do you need clarification on how port forwarding works?


Hi Thanks!

I checked my router status page and the WAN IP address is same one shown on the screen shot above (but listed as BROWSER IP ADDRESS on the DYN DNS site).

1. The host name is 'blandlodge', so I assume I simply enter 'blandolodge' in the Host Name Box at DYNDNS?

2. I assume the New IP Address (on the DYN DNS page) is the IP address of the thermostat (e.g. 192.168.0.xxx). Correct?

3. Regarding the Port Forwarding, here is a screen shot.
For NAME, I assume blandolodge? For IP address, thermostat IP address (e.g. 192.168.0.xxx). Correct?
Not sure of how to fiull out the rest.

Thanks all your help!
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post #19 of 39 Old 05-20-2012, 08:50 AM
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As I said you enter the WAN IP address. The only address "visible" to the outside world is you WAN address.

Port forwarding is what allows you to use that address to access the computers and devices on your LAN.

Basically the HOST name associated with your WAN IP address is what allows someone in the outside world to "find" your home network.

Then port numbers are used to determine what computer or device on your LAN to connect to.

I am not familiar with the "router" you are using so I don't know what what it is capable of in regards to port forwarding.

Let me describe how port forwarding on my "router" works.

Lets say my HOST name is FREDERICK.

Lets say I have two computers (A and B) on my LAN. On computer A I have a "private" web site just for my family. On computer B I have a "public" web site for everyone else.

So I make a "port forwarding" entriy that instructs the "router" to connect web browser connections made to FREDERICK to the web site on computer B. I make another entry that instructs the "router" to connect web browser connections made to FREDERICK:8080 to computer A.

That 8080 is the port number that allows the "router" to determine which web site to connect to. The default port number for web browsers is 80, so FREDERICK by itself is really FREDERICK:80. So requests for port 80 go to computer B, requests for port 8080 go to computer A.

Oversimplified but that's the essence.

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post #20 of 39 Old 05-21-2012, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

As I said you enter the WAN IP address. The only address "visible" to the outside world is you WAN address.

Port forwarding is what allows you to use that address to access the computers and devices on your LAN.

Basically the HOST name associated with your WAN IP address is what allows someone in the outside world to "find" your home network.

Then port numbers are used to determine what computer or device on your LAN to connect to.

I am not familiar with the "router" you are using so I don't what what it is capable of in regards to port forwarding.

Let me describe how port forwarding on my "router" works.

Lets say my HOST name is FREDERICK.

Lets say I have two computers (A and B) on my LAN. On computer A I have a "private" web site just for my family. On computer B I have a "public" web site for everyone else.

So I make a "port forwarding" entriy that instructs the "router" to connect web browser connections made to FREDERICK to the web site on computer B. I make another entry that instructs the "router" to connect web browser connections made to FREDERICK:8080 to computer A.

That 8080 is the port number that allows the "router" to determine which web site to connect to. The default port number for web browsers is 80, so FREDERICK by itself is really FREDERICK:80. So requests for port 80 go to computer B, requests for port 8080 go to computer A.

Oversimplified but that's the essence.

OK, I think I got it.

So, going back to the above below on the DYN DNS page, the three things I need are the HOST IP (listed), Device IP (192.168.0.xxx) and the Host name (blandolodge)

On the Port Forwarding page, I'll port forward to my thermostat using 8080. So in looking at the above screen capture of my Port Forwarding page, I'll enter the

1. Name: blandolodge.dlinkdns.com
2. IP ADDRESS: 192.168.0.xxx (whatever my router assigns it)
3. Application Name: Note the screen shot right above, there is a pull down, which Application Name do I select??
3. Ports TCP or UDP? What do I enter here? and do I simply put 8080 or blandolodge:8080?
4. And are the defaults for 'schedule' and Inbound Filter OK?

Thanks!!
LL
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post #21 of 39 Old 05-21-2012, 11:43 AM
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The IP address that goes into the DynDNS page is your WAN IP address - which is not going to be a 192.168.x.x. address.

Regards setting up port forwarding on your "router" I think you are going to have to read the manual. Where it asks for a port it will only be a number. I don't know what the purpose of the application name is - does selecting something there fill in the private port number?

Going back to my example. The private port number for both web servers would be 80. The public port numbers (which must be different) can be most anything. I could use 1234 to connect to computer A and 4321 to connect to computer B. So a web browser request for computer A would be FREDERICK:1234 and for computer B would be FREDERICK:4321. The "router" looks at this public port number and determines what computer to connect to and uses the associated private port number to actually make the connection.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #22 of 39 Old 05-21-2012, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

The IP address that goes into the DynDNS page is your WAN IP address - which is not going to be a 192.168.x.x. address.

Regards setting up port forwarding on your "router" I think you are going to have to read the manual. Where it asks for a port it will only be a number. I don't know what the purpose of the application name is - does selecting something there fill in the private port number?

Going back to my example. The private port number for both web servers would be 80. The public port numbers (which must be different) can be most anything. I could use 1234 to connect to computer A and 4321 to connect to computer B. So a web browser request for computer A would be FREDERICK:1234 and for computer B would be FREDERICK:4321. The "router" looks at this public port number and determines what computer to connect to and uses the associated private port number to actually make the connection.

OK three things:

1. I believe the WAN IP address is the same as the BROWSER IP address that is already supplied on the DYN DNS page above... So what is the or where do I find 'New IP Address' that his the third and final blank to fill in on the DYN DNS page above? I assumed it was the thermostat IP address on my LAN.

2. You mention FREDERICK1234, etc. But that I would never enter FREDERICK 1234 into the port forwarding page, in looking at my DLINK Port Forwarding page, I'd just enter 'FREDERICK' under 'name' and 1234 under Port. Correct?

3. The DLINK Port Forwarding Page asks for an IP address. I assume this is the IP address of the thermostat designated by the router (192.168.0.1)?

Thanks! I'm getting there

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post #23 of 39 Old 05-21-2012, 04:04 PM
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There should be a "status" page somewhere in your "router" that tells you what your current WAN IP address is.

Where I was using the name FREDERICK you would use whatever name you entered for the HOST name on the DYN DNS page. This name is how you access your home network from the outside world.

The name entry on the "router" port forwarding page would be a name for the computer or device you are "forwarding" to - in your case it might be "Home Thermostat" or "Living Room Thermostat" - whatever makes sense. The IP address is the LAN address of the computer or device you are "forwarding" to - in your case the IP address of your thermostat.

I have been assuming all along that your thermostat is, in fact, designed to be controlled via a web browser and thus has a tiny little web server listening for a connection on port 80 - thus 80 becomes the private port number for the port forwarding entry.

If the HOST name entered into the DYN DNS page was "MyHome" and the public port you entered (for the thermostat) on the port forwarding page was 6789 to connect to your thermostat from a web browser you would enter MyHome:6789.

What happens at this point is the web browser issues a request out on the internet for a connection to MyHome:6789. Eventually a DNS server somewhere looks up MyHome and comes up with your current WAN address (which the DYN DNS service has kept up to date) so the request now looks like xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:6789 (where xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx is your current WAN IP address) which is sufficient to establish a connection to the WAN side of your "router". Then your "router" looks at the 6789 port number part and determines from the port forwarding entries what device (your thermostat) to forward the request to. If everything works as intended you would now have a active connection to your thermostat from the browser.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #24 of 39 Old 05-21-2012, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote=fcwilt;22048620]There should be a "status" page somewhere in your "router" that tells you what your current WAN IP address is. [quote]

Right. Got it.

Quote:


Where I was using the name FREDERICK you would use whatever name you entered for the HOST name on the DYN DNS page. This name is how you access your home network from the outside world.

Yep. Blandolodge for me

Quote:


The name entry on the "router" port forwarding page would be a name for the computer or device you are "forwarding" to - in your case it might be "Home Thermostat" or "Living Room Thermostat" - whatever makes sense. The IP address is the LAN address of the computer or device you are "forwarding" to - in your case the IP address of your thermostat.

Got it. For this, the IP address would be 192.168.0.1

[quote]I have been assuming all along that your thermostat is, in fact, designed to be controlled via a web browser and thus has a tiny little web server listening for a connection on port 80 - thus 80 becomes the private port number for the port forwarding entry.[quote]

Yes, it has a web server built in. So, if in looking at the Port Forwarding page on the router, I could give it a port forwarding address of 8080? Correct?

Quote:


If the HOST name entered into the DYN DNS page was "MyHome" and the public port you entered (for the thermostat) on the port forwarding page was 6789 to connect to your thermostat from a web browser you would enter MyHome:6789.

OK. Since my HOST name is blandolodge and the port I have for it is 8080, my web browser address would be: blandolodge.dlinkdns:8080 or just blandolodge:8080?

The HOST address on the DLINK DYN DNS page is blandolodge:dlink.com. Correct? (I attached DYN DNS page below).

Quote:


What happens at this point is the web browser issues a request out on the internet for a connection to MyHome:6789. Eventually a DNS server somewhere looks up MyHome and comes up with your current WAN address (which the DYN DNS service has kept up to date) so the request now looks like xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:6789 (where xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx is your current WAN IP address) which is sufficient to establish a connection to the WAN side of your "router". Then your "router" looks at the 6789 port number part and determines from the port forwarding entries what device (your thermostat) to forward the request to. If everything works as intended you would now have a active connection to your thermostat from the browser.

I can't wait to try it! Thanks for you over the top patience. I understand HT but this stuff is a bit new to me!!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #25 of 39 Old 05-21-2012, 05:13 PM
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Well when I setup my DYN DNS account (a long time ago) I got to pick, from a pull down list, the part that would follow the host name I entered.

So for me it is "sml-wilt-fam.dyndns.org" where "sml-wilt-fam" is the host name I entered and ".dyndns.org" is that part I selected from the pull down list.

From the Windows command line you can enter "nslookup" which will start a command line application where you can enter in a host name and see what IP address it maps to. You can use this to verify that you have your DYN DNS service correct.

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post #26 of 39 Old 05-21-2012, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

Well when I setup my DYN DNS account (a long time ago) I got to pick from a pull down list that part that would follow the host name I entered.

So for me it is "sml-wilt-fam.dyndns.org" where "sml-wilt-fam" is the host name I entered and ".dyndns.org" is that part I selected from the pull down list.

From the Windows command line you can enter "nslookup" which will start a command line application where you can enter in a host name and see what IP address it maps to. You can use this to verify that you have your DYN DNS service correct.

Ok. Here is a page from the thermostat manual (attached).

Should I forward to port 6280 or 80? It talks of primary and secondary listening ports..

Thanks, Frederick!
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post #27 of 39 Old 05-21-2012, 09:08 PM
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What they are allowing for is port forwarding which doesn't allow setting both public AND private port number.

Sometimes you will run into hardware that has limited port forwarding options such as only having a "public" port number - that same port number is also used to connect to the computer/application.

In this case the thermostat can listen on both the normal local port number (80) and another port number which you would use as the "public" port when setting up your port forwarding.

In your case you can leave the thermostat as is and use the 6280 as both the "private" and "public" port numbers when setting up your port forwarding OR you can use the 6280 as your "private" port number and pick a different one for your "public" port number.

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post #28 of 39 Old 05-22-2012, 03:48 AM - Thread Starter
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OK. So if I enter port 6280 on my router's port forwarding page, the address I type on my browser to access my thermostat is simply blandolodge:6280? Is this correct? Or blandolodge.dlinkdns:6280?

Do i enter the port number (6280) in UDP or TCP PORT box on the router's port forwarding page?

Thanks!

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post #29 of 39 Old 05-22-2012, 05:22 AM
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I just looked over this thread and I can't help but wonder: do you know the headache you could be causing yourself?

Forwarding a port is simple enough but everything accessible to the Internet is a target for hackers and/or kids who want to prank, even if it is not on port 80. (I see random intrusion attempts on my home network daily.) I don't know what the web interface to those thermostats looks like but I would guess it's not meant to be Internet-facing.

For example, if the web interface simply let's me control your t-stat without so much as a login, you've already posted enough info here for me(or anyone else) to crank your heat to 100 in summer or 40 in winter. Even if there is a password, I'm guessing it won't be very hard to hit it with a brute force cracker and get in.

Once in, it's not just about changing your temp, a vulnerability can be used to access your LAN and all the computers on it. At that point, you might as well have unprotected WiFi because it will be just as easy to access.

The better way to do this is with a VPN at the remote location. At least VPN solutions, even basic ones, are meant to be Internet-facing. Then you can VPN into the remote and access it like it is local but without forwarding ports to the t-stat and making it internet accessible.

I guess what I'm saying is: think and understand what you are doing and the implications before you do this. I have concerns that you are just opening a big can of headache.

Dave
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post #30 of 39 Old 05-22-2012, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzer-d View Post

I just looked over this thread and I can't help but wonder: do you know the headache you could be causing yourself?

Forwarding a port is simple enough but everything accessible to the Internet is a target for hackers and/or kids who want to prank, even if it is not on port 80. (I see random intrusion attempts on my home network daily.) I don't know what the web interface to those thermostats looks like but I would guess it's not meant to be Internet-facing.

For example, if the web interface simply let's me control your t-stat without so much as a login, you've already posted enough info here for me(or anyone else) to crank your heat to 100 in summer or 40 in winter. Even if there is a password, I'm guessing it won't be very hard to hit it with a brute force cracker and get in.

Once in, it's not just about changing your temp, a vulnerability can be used to access your LAN and all the computers on it. At that point, you might as well have unprotected WiFi because it will be just as easy to access.

The better way to do this is with a VPN at the remote location. At least VPN solutions, even basic ones, are meant to be Internet-facing. Then you can VPN into the remote and access it like it is local but without forwarding ports to the t-stat and making it internet accessible.

I guess what I'm saying is: think and understand what you are doing and the implications before you do this. I have concerns that you are just opening a big can of headache.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I appreciate your thoughts. More than anything else, I simply want to learn about setting things like this up. When I do, then I can move to more sophisticated (and secure) set ups.

It's a vacation home. I have no other computers there or anything else in the place. It's really a little project i set up for myself. My security set up (which communicates via cellular) will warn me if heat / cool temps get past programmed set points - so I can watch for trouble makers!

After I get the thermostat working, I can look into a VPN or the likes as at some point I may add other internet devices.

Eventually, I'd like to add similar things to my primary home but am on a learning cure here. Home Theater is more my language, but I've learned quite a bit in this thread!

Jeff

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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