Only dealers can change Lutron RA2 IP address - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 69 Old 05-15-2012, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cntp View Post

...but the subnet is set at /24 with no way to change it at all. Madness....

That is just too strange - why in the world would the manufacture want that to be a fixed value - unless they didn't know any better.

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post #32 of 69 Old 05-16-2012, 12:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I found the manual for the Lutron iPhone app. Indeed, it requires a static IP. It also requires a PPTP VPN to be setup if the homeowner wants access from a remote network (and a router that supports this feature). Each different iPhone and iPad in the home needs a separate telnet login account configured in the RA2 programming software. Now consider that this programming software is not easily available to the homeowner so if you have a new iPad that needs a login.. only the dealer can do it. If your network static IP needs to change.. call the dealer..

http://resi.lutron.com/Portals/4/doc...vision%20I.pdf
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post #33 of 69 Old 05-16-2012, 08:33 AM
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You will notice on page 6 where it says not to use DHCP because "the IP address can be changed by your router after a power outage".

This, of course, is not true when using reservations - so reservations should work.

On page 14 it says the phone app IP address must match the repeater IP address - which is as expected - still nothing the would prevent reservations from working.

It's interesting that the phone app needs a separate login for each user - not a terrible thing but an unnecessary one.

One thing I note, this document talks about a WiFi router, as if this is the only setup that you will find in a home. This, of course, is not true. Yes a "WiFi router" (terrible name if you ask me) is common but not required. For local access using WiFi you actually only need a WiFi Access Point.

Regards VPN: while it certainly is a good idea from a security point of view it should not be a necessity. Applications/devices on the ends of a VPN connection don't have to know about the type of connection.

My home and my daughters home are connected using the VPN feature of the installed firewalls (routers in residential speak). This is a firewall-to-firewall feature and once activated my home network and her home network are connected. Each network has its own subnet but other then that "remote" applications work across the network without any special considerations.

Do you accept private messages? - I have some information that you may be interested in.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #34 of 69 Old 05-16-2012, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree with your assessment fcwilt. Lutron seems to have this philosophy that things are set in stone according to their proprietary preferences.. that's ok for switch electronics, but networking is fundamentally a layered architecture that Lutron should interoperate with, rather than trying to control the homeowner's network configuration. Once the dealer gets my system working I will be very interested to access the RA2 while I'm away from home, and I'm planning to use dynamic DNS and port forwarding instead of setting up a PPTP VPN. I sure hope that Lutron didn't write some code that somehow checks for the existence of PPTP when accessed outside the internal network. Yep I'm happy to accept PM messages.
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post #35 of 69 Old 05-16-2012, 05:51 PM
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DDBear: You've Got Mail!

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #36 of 69 Old 05-21-2012, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDBear View Post

I agree with your assessment fcwilt. Lutron seems to have this philosophy that things are set in stone according to their proprietary preferences.. that's ok for switch electronics, but networking is fundamentally a layered architecture that Lutron should interoperate with, rather than trying to control the homeowner's network configuration. Once the dealer gets my system working I will be very interested to access the RA2 while I'm away from home, and I'm planning to use dynamic DNS and port forwarding instead of setting up a PPTP VPN. I sure hope that Lutron didn't write some code that somehow checks for the existence of PPTP when accessed outside the internal network. Yep I'm happy to accept PM messages.

What? Why are you (still) ranting about this? It's an entirely reasonable expectation to have a fixed addressing scheme for the lighting gear. PLAN IT AHEAD OF TIME. And do not use the 192.168.1.x/24 subnet, as you'll regret that should you dial-into the network from somewhere else that's ALSO using the 1.x subnet.

VPNs work great, use one. Or use a remote control application to connect back into a PC inside the network. DDNS is nowhere near as reliable. Yes, it "ought to be" but that rarely holds true. Best solution is to pay for a static IP and setup a VPN. Pay the money, get the reliability.
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post #37 of 69 Old 05-21-2012, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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wkearney, I said in my previous posts that I think it is understandable to use a static IP. So I agree with you on that point. However what I think Lutron is doing crazy is to not allow the homeowner (the homeowner = the home's network admin) to change this static address. If the Lutron is designed to work over a static IP (which is fine) then give the homeowner access to programming software to administer this address. Also, it is bizarre that the same is true for the telnet logins used by the iPhones/iPads. These logins are needed but homeowner has no way to edit them. Yeah there is Blast training etc but how many homeowners will sign up for day long training just to have access to change their own device static IP and telnet logins. Lutron has a big fix to make..
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post #38 of 69 Old 05-21-2012, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

It's an entirely reasonable expectation to have a fixed addressing scheme for the lighting gear.

Indeed - and that's what DHCP reservations allow for but Lutron doesn't seem to know that.

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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

And do not use the 192.168.1.x/24 subnet

No matter what private subnet you choose you may run into a conflict - there are a limited number of them.

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DDNS is nowhere near as reliable

Reliable as what? The entire Internet depends on DNS. DDNS is just a way to keep the associated IP addresses in sync. If you have sync issues then something is not setup correctly.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #39 of 69 Old 05-21-2012, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDBear View Post

wkearney, I said in my previous posts that I think it is understandable to use a static IP. So I agree with you on that point. However what I think Lutron is doing crazy is to not allow the homeowner (the homeowner = the home's network admin) to change this static address. If the Lutron is designed to work over a static IP (which is fine) then give the homeowner access to programming software to administer this address. Also, it is bizarre that the same is true for the telnet logins used by the iPhones/iPads. These logins are needed but homeowner has no way to edit them. Yeah there is Blast training etc but how many homeowners will sign up for day long training just to have access to change their own device static IP and telnet logins. Lutron has a big fix to make..

A typical system costs how much? A day's training is a drop in the bucket in comparison. Especially given the vanishingly small percentage of homeowners that will even KNOW what an IP address or telnet logni means.

As for network admin, if you're gonna talk the talk, then you'd know what PLANNING a network entails.
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post #40 of 69 Old 05-21-2012, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

No matter what private subnet you choose you may run into a conflict - there are a limited number of them.

Um, no. There are THOUSANDS. 172.16.x.x, 10.x.x.x, 192.168.x.x, etc. Meanwhile there's the EXTREMELY high likelihood of another network already using 192.168.1.x/24. Pick something else... move on.
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Reliable as what? The entire Internet depends on DNS. DDNS is just a way to keep the associated IP addresses in sync. If you have sync issues then something is not setup correctly.

Clearly you know little of DDNS. You're at the mercy of how often your ISP changes your IP address, then how reliably your local router (or DDNS client) detects this change, then how reliably your DDNS host is at updating their records AND THEN how reliably the end clients are at purging and refreshing their DNS cache (this last issue being the most problematic). As opposed to a static DNS assignment based on a static address with a sane, long-lived timeout. But hey, feel free to stay woefully ill-informed.

Yes, it's clear Lutron's choices are going to be less than ideal for a small segment of the market. Could be the price they'll pay for making the product a lot more reliable for new customers.

Meanwhile anyone with a good relationship with their reseller knows how to solve the problem. Get the software, attend some training and get on with life.
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post #41 of 69 Old 05-21-2012, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

Um, no. There are THOUSANDS. 172.16.x.x, 10.x.x.x, 192.168.x.x, etc.

And how many homes/business with networks?

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Clearly you know little of DDNS.

Wrong - being doing system admin work for decades.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #42 of 69 Old 05-22-2012, 04:46 AM
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And how many homes/business with networks?

Which clearly shows you do not understand use of private networks. The point here is we're talking about connecting into the network from somewhere else, one at a time. Not EVERYWHERE else at the same time. Using anything other than 192.168.1.x is the point, because it's used by default on so many different pieces of equipment (and ICS; network sharing). Few (none?) of which are used by default on SOHO class gear.

The point is to plan a network ahead of time that doesn't need changes. Do it right the first time and you avoid the scenario being whinged about here.

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Wrong - being doing system admin work for decades.

And wrong the whole time? Duration doesn't equal quality. Plenty of people base their "expertise" on lack of understanding.
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post #43 of 69 Old 05-22-2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

Which clearly shows you do not understand use of private networks.

Hey you brought it up - I knew it wasn't an issue.

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And wrong the whole time?

No actually I am very good at what I do - and I don't have an attitude either.

DDBear wasn't whining either - Lutron has seemingly made some design choices which are needlessly restrictive - if the Lutron techs are correct about what must be done.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #44 of 69 Old 05-22-2012, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

Yes, it's clear Lutron's choices are going to be less than ideal for a small segment of the market. Could be the price they'll pay for making the product a lot more reliable for new customers.

There is no increase in reliability by preventing the network admin (homeowner) from changing the static IP address. There are 3 types of "static IP" under a loose definition of the term causing confusion here. 1. A static WAN IP, 2. A static private IP coupled with DDNS, 3. A DHCP lease IP. The fact that there are so many ways to configure even a "static IP" is further argument that Lutron should allow the network admin (homeowner) to edit this address, not just the dealer who is not the home's network admin.
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post #45 of 69 Old 05-22-2012, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DDBear View Post

There is no increase in reliability by preventing the network admin (homeowner) from changing the static IP address. There are 3 types of "static IP" under a loose definition of the term causing confusion here. 1. A static WAN IP, 2. A static private IP coupled with DDNS, 3. A DHCP lease IP. The fact that there are so many ways to configure even a "static IP" is further argument that Lutron should allow the network admin (homeowner) to edit this address, not just the dealer who is not the home's network admin.

Lutron will not allow the homeowner to change settings because the more people with access the higher number of potential problems that can be caused. The systems are not cheap to install and the last thing Lutron or dealers need are homeowners calling in because they messed with settings and cannot connect to their system. We're not talking about a cheap little router that costs $100 but systems that can cost upwards of couple thousand. If I'm a dealer, the last thing I'd want to hear is some customer tweaked some settings and now cannot connect. Now I have to spend more time trying to fix the problem they caused and the customer is pissed his or her system is not working correctly. You don't want too many hands in the pot. Like wkearny said, if you want access then take the training.
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post #46 of 69 Old 05-22-2012, 07:51 PM
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Lutron will not allow the homeowner to change settings because the more people with access the higher number of potential problems that can be caused

Well if memory serves me (and it might not) the OP said the Lutron dealer setup the system "wrong" (using DHCP) and then changed it to static and still the system didn't work.

So perhaps Lutron shouldn't let ANYBODY touch the system.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #47 of 69 Old 05-23-2012, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Well if memory serves me (and it might not) the OP said the Lutron dealer setup the system "wrong" (using DHCP) and then changed it to static and still the system didn't work.

So perhaps Lutron shouldn't let ANYBODY touch the system.

By the way we found the fix, unrelated to IP addressing. The installer had to add one of the physical button keypads to the configuration even though the iPhone and iPad is my only keypad so far.

Each iPhone/iPad requires a separate telnet login. If I buy a new iPad then only the dealer can add it to the system. I feel so protected from myself.
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post #48 of 69 Old 05-23-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DDBear View Post

By the way we found the fix, unrelated to IP addressing. The installer had to add one of the physical button keypads to the configuration even though the iPhone and iPad is my only keypad so far.

Each iPhone/iPad requires a separate telnet login. If I buy a new iPad then only the dealer can add it to the system. I feel so protected from myself.

See the customer cannot be trusted because only our well trained installers know how to set it up.

I suppose most customers with no technical interests could care less about being locked out of their own system. Still there are other companies that have more flexible policies and better thought out systems.

Well glad you got it working.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #49 of 69 Old 05-23-2012, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by nege0 View Post

Lutron will not allow the homeowner to change settings because the more people with access the higher number of potential problems that can be caused. The systems are not cheap to install and the last thing Lutron or dealers need are homeowners calling in because they messed with settings and cannot connect to their system. We're not talking about a cheap little router that costs $100 but systems that can cost upwards of couple thousand. If I'm a dealer, the last thing I'd want to hear is some customer tweaked some settings and now cannot connect. Now I have to spend more time trying to fix the problem they caused and the customer is pissed his or her system is not working correctly. You don't want too many hands in the pot. Like wkearny said, if you want access then take the training.

From the perspective of a DIY tinkerer there's certainly some issues that raise concern. The most likely route to deal with those concerns is either strike up a cordial relationship with a reseller and/or take a training class. Given the amount of money being spent on this kind of gear it would seem a no-brainer to pursue either option. This likely leaves the tire-kickers and low-ball online deal hunters out in the cold, at least for now. Meanwhile Lutron grows the market and fine tunes how they handle it. They're hardly stupid people, and if there's enough interest in more versatile tools/options in homeowner hands hopefully they'll make it happen.

Meanwhile, if you're serious about the gear and have real concerns take them up with resellers and find one with the answers you want.
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post #50 of 69 Old 05-23-2012, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DDBear View Post

By the way we found the fix, unrelated to IP addressing. The installer had to add one of the physical button keypads to the configuration even though the iPhone and iPad is my only keypad so far.

Sounds like you need a reseller that knows what they're doing. Hope you don't pay for their learning curve mistakes.
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post #51 of 69 Old 05-23-2012, 04:11 PM
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Have your dealer create several telnet logins for you so you're ready for future devices. Any good dealer should be at least doing this and documenting it to solve a potential issue over the phone instead of rolling a truck.
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post #52 of 69 Old 05-23-2012, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like you need a reseller that knows what they're doing. Hope you don't pay for their learning curve mistakes.

It's not my dealer's fault that Lutron has this undocumented quirk.

I doubt many customers would even buy Lutron in the first place fully knowing how they're locked out of the system. In addition to not being able to change the network settings and iPad logins, I can't even edit the timer settings from the iPad .. this editing only works from within the programming software. Who the heck would pay thousands to put RA2 tentacles in every corner of their home fully knowing these limitations. I will keep my own install simple with only a couple devices exactly for this reason. This is a nicely designed product from a user interface perspective, but the system management aspect is a complete disaster.
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post #53 of 69 Old 05-23-2012, 11:14 PM
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I doubt many customers would even buy Lutron in the first place fully knowing how they're locked out of the system...

I disagree. Many people who buy stuff like this and other home automation systems aren't like us here at AVS. They don't care how it works, or any of the backed of it, they just want to to work for them, the first try every time, without having to think about it. Some are not technical at all, and wouldn't attempt something like that even if it was possible. Most don't have time to sit around and tinker with their Lutron systems or network. Some of the customers are business people, and any time they spend messing with this stuff could have huge opportunity costs associated with it.

Not that I agree with the way Lutron does things, but out of all the systems they have in the field, I bet they get very, very few calls about this from end users - most just don't care.

Edit: Knowing undocumented quirks/functionality is part of what separates the great integrators from the rest. Again, not saying that I like how it works, but pretty much every manf has stuff like this these days.
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post #54 of 69 Old 05-24-2012, 08:08 AM
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It's not my dealer's fault that Lutron has this undocumented quirk.

I doubt many customers would even buy Lutron in the first place fully knowing how they're locked out of the system. In addition to not being able to change the network settings and iPad logins, I can't even edit the timer settings from the iPad .. this editing only works from within the programming software. Who the heck would pay thousands to put RA2 tentacles in every corner of their home fully knowing these limitations. I will keep my own install simple with only a couple devices exactly for this reason. This is a nicely designed product from a user interface perspective, but the system management aspect is a complete disaster.

Onsie-twosie customers? No, they probably won't bother. But given that Crestron, Control4 and the like all continue to sell a lot of product, clearly there are customers that really don't care about what is or isn't proprietary or locked out. Hell, even Apple's products are notoriously locked out. So your rant really doesn't hold up to reality. I don't disagree that having things locked out from customers is a bad thing, just not the big deal you trump it up to be.
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post #55 of 69 Old 05-24-2012, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

Hell, even Apple's products are notoriously locked out.

This is not comparable to Apple -- it's much worse. At least with my iPhone and iPad I can manage my network settings, edit the clock timer, and edit my logins and passwords.

Imagine if you had to go to the AT&T (or Verizon etc.) dealer every time you wanted to change one of the things mentioned above. If that were the case you could make the Apple comparison.

Right now Apple is way more open to the customer managing their own device, than Lutron.

I hope that Lutron fixes this problem and expands their market, because they have nice attention to the form-factor and cosmetic design, which I like. I'm not the only one who noticed this problem. On the message boards I found others complaining of this issue of being locked out of their own system. Even a "non-techie business man" who has better things to do will be frustrated if he cannot add iPads, change timer events, or if the home automation is fragile and goes down every time his techie network admin changes something (because his techie admin guy cannot manage the Lutron IP settings).
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post #56 of 69 Old 05-24-2012, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DDBear View Post

...or if the home automation is fragile and goes down every time his techie network admin changes something (because his techie admin guy cannot manage the Lutron IP settings).

This pretty much applies to everything - this stuff tends to get static IP addresses, and it can be very time consuming to re-address everything. I suppose the "network admin" could change the address of some things, but in a lot of cases the automation integrator is the network admin also.

And, if your "techie network admin" changes ip addresses/schemes with anything approaching regularity, then you need a new network admin!
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post #57 of 69 Old 05-24-2012, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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This pretty much applies to everything - this stuff tends to get static IP addresses, and it can be very time consuming to re-address everything. I suppose the "network admin" could change the address of some things, but in a lot of cases the automation integrator is the network admin also.

And, if your "techie network admin" changes ip addresses/schemes with anything approaching regularity, then you need a new network admin!

You must be thinking about DHCP if you think it doesn't need changing every once in a while. Let's say the homeowner switches from Cable modem to AT&T Uverse.. The subnet may change and Lutron just makes it that much more cumbersome to manage the network.

Then there's the issue of having no homeowner control over timer events or system logins either.

Lutron Philosophy = call your electrician to plug the toaster into a different kitchen outlet. Standard practice = just let granny move the friggin thing to a new outlet.
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post #58 of 69 Old 05-24-2012, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DDBear View Post

Lutron Philosophy...

Perhaps you've gotten yourself too worked up. Clearly it's not the product for you. Move on and drop the stress you seem to cause yourself over it.
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post #59 of 69 Old 05-24-2012, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not worked up, instead I return the favor to the forum community to cut through marketing BS and tell the real world experience. I personally like truth, science, facts and I'm NOT the only real homeowner expressing bewilderment about this lack of control over the system.
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post #60 of 69 Old 05-24-2012, 08:11 PM
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If you have such a hard-on over the whole thing why don't you buy a DIY lighting control system?

I have installed many systems over the years and this network issue has never cropped up with a single client. If you want a certain feature within a DIY system then use that system - there are no perfect solutions, even for installers.

What does your dealer do when you, the client, has too much control and breaks the system? Roll a truck for free?

You must see this is a double edge sword from the dealer, and Lutron's perspective.
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