UPS really that necessary? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 08-16-2012, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I am assembling a parts list of equipment for a Crestron system and got to the question of whether or not to include a UPS. I got sticker shock on this item expecting only a few hundred and seeing they go for north of $1200. I live in a newer high rise in a city and would expect that the building is protected to some extent from dirty power / power losses. Is this a waste of money? i was depating just using a line conditioner that I already had from a previous system. Looking at the Crestron cen-ups-1250.

Thanks
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post #2 of 28 Old 08-16-2012, 05:47 PM
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Probably unneeded.

Solution: FREE. Explanation: I will have to charge$ you.

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post #3 of 28 Old 08-16-2012, 06:42 PM
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You don't need a UPS unless you have mission critical equipment that must stay up. For some folks, that might be a DVR to record their favorite programs.
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post #4 of 28 Old 08-16-2012, 07:05 PM
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When power goes out, cable often goes out too. But not always.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. -Buddha

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post #5 of 28 Old 08-16-2012, 08:46 PM
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We always suggest that the electrician install a UPS unit for our Vantage controllers.
It's not so much to keep the power on, as it is to use it as a secondary defense against the utility company power surging, and the controller failing.
We have many instances where the power goes back on, kicks off, goes on, kicks off, etc., and the controller fries.
Yes there is built in protection, but you can only kick the equipment so many times.
Its inexpensive protection.
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post #6 of 28 Old 08-16-2012, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westcojack View Post

...the controller fries.
Sounds like a good reason to use something else.
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post #7 of 28 Old 08-17-2012, 04:03 AM
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Yes there is built in protection, but you can only kick the equipment so many times

Properly designed, you can kick the hell out of it.
The common theme seems to be, low volume, high price, poor design....power supplies are not difficult to design by the competent.
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post #8 of 28 Old 08-17-2012, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all for the feedback. This pretty much confirmed my suspicions.
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post #9 of 28 Old 08-18-2012, 10:13 AM
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One further comment.
If there is a catastrophic surge, and you lose thousands of dollars of equipment that you could have avoided by installing a couple hundred dollar UPS unit, will this upset you?????
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post #10 of 28 Old 08-18-2012, 10:47 AM
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$1200 is a rip for a UPS, you should be able to get one for well under $300


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post #11 of 28 Old 08-18-2012, 01:15 PM
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There's more to consider then the protection of the processor. I have a giant APC rack mount "Smart UPS" It has like six or eight motor cycle size batteries in it. Everything in the rack AND a projector is run through it. I loose my power frequently and when I do, it seems to always happen when the projector is on. Sometimes the power bangs on and off a few times before it goes off for good. That wreaks havoc with any projector especially a digital with expensive lamps that require post cooling (fan after shut-down) to keep the lamp housing from melting. The "Smart UPS" has serial communication which works well with Crestron. If the power goes out while the theater is powered up, a icon indicating a power failure pops up on my touch screen. I can tap the icon and go to a screen showing me the statistics including battery condition. At that time I can choose to continue watching the show/movie or shut it down. Most of the time I just do a safe shutdown but There is about enough power to run the theater for a whole movie before safe shutdown. That cost way more then $1,200.00 dollars but I have many thousands invested in equipment that I now do not have to worry about. It's all about choices.

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post #12 of 28 Old 08-18-2012, 03:24 PM
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UPS, power conditioning, and surge protection are 3 different features and you need to compare the product-specific details of each when comparing products and pricing. Just thought it was worth mentioning.
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post #13 of 28 Old 08-18-2012, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westcojack View Post

If there is a catastrophic surge, and you lose thousands of dollars of equipment that you could have avoided by installing a couple hundred dollar UPS unit, will this upset you?????
A UPS is a ridiculously expensive way of getting surge protection. The surge protection provided by the typical UPS is no different than that of a decent surge protective power strip. If you want to minimize potential damage from surges, start with a whole house approach and protect every conductive path into the building, not just AC.
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post #14 of 28 Old 08-18-2012, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post

I loose my power frequently...
Now that might be a reason to a get a UPS, just because of the annoyance factor.
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post #15 of 28 Old 08-18-2012, 04:59 PM
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@Colm

You are correct, if the only reason was surge protection.
I don't think any computer related equipment likes being power down with no warning.
There are many good reasons for a UPS.
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post #16 of 28 Old 08-18-2012, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westcojack View Post

@Colm
You are correct, if the only reason was surge protection.
Well, that was what you were talking about...
Quote:
I don't think any computer related equipment likes being power down with no warning.
I dont think it has an opinion one way or the other. FWIW the main issue with just pulling the power in a properly designed system is if it is doing something like writing to disk or a flash drive or something like that. And then it is an issue of data loss or corruption, not hardware damage. Just think of all the microprocessors embedded in all kinds of CE gear. If it was a problem, we would all be screwed really good.
Quote:
There are many good reasons for a UPS.
Yes, but surge protection per se is not one of them. Nor should be protecting a system with a poorly designed power supply. The purpose of a UPS is to keep mission critical equipment up, as simple as that.
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post #17 of 28 Old 08-18-2012, 09:04 PM
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The giant UPS in my system has "Smart trim" and "Smart boost". The percentage that the line power is allowed to vary is user adjustable. I have mine set to the default setting and notice when I'm near it that it kicks in when I have not even noticed a light flicker. I can tell you that I was experiancing equipment damage on a regular basis. I have not lost one piece of gear since I installed it over five years ago. Right or wrong you will not win the arguement with me that they are not worth it;)

Current owner of the last/best AmPro on the planet. The mighty 4600HD, and it's still running...better than Barco's, especially southern ones.
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post #18 of 28 Old 08-18-2012, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post

The giant UPS in my system has "Smart trim" and "Smart boost".
This is not unique to line interactive UPSs. You can also get it separately. It is generally referred to as Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR).
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I have not lost one piece of gear since I installed it over five years ago.
Good for you. The question is which feature of the UPS did it. Was it the MOVs? Was it the AVR? Or was it the battery backup?
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Right or wrong you will not win the arguement with me that they are not worth it;)
I dont think anybody is trying to convince you of anything. You obviously have your mind made up, right or wrong. We are just presenting information for the OP and others who still have questions, and refuting BS when we see it.
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post #19 of 28 Old 08-19-2012, 04:27 AM
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I use inexpensive ($170.00) true sine wave UPS for cable modems, routers, and sat boxes, and any processors (such as RTI remote processors) in my HT: rather than one big one (have 3 in the HT including one for PC)

CyberPower CP1350PFCLCD PFC Compatible 1350VA 810W Pure Sine Wave Tower UPS

many of these have guarantees to cover damage to protected devices so I think it is a good investment

these keep connected components running until the generator kicks in if there is a power failure: they are quiet with no fan during normal operation
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post #20 of 28 Old 08-20-2012, 06:26 AM
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lamps that require post cooling (fan after shut-down) to keep the lamp housing from melting

I'm guessing they don't teach thermodynamics in school anymore?
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post #21 of 28 Old 08-20-2012, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

Quote:
lamps that require post cooling (fan after shut-down) to keep the lamp housing from melting

I'm guessing they don't teach thermodynamics in school anymore?

what is wrong with this statement? thermodynamics is my business...just want to understand what I missed
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post #22 of 28 Old 08-20-2012, 07:37 AM
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The temperature of the lamp housing will not continue to rise after the energy source is removed.

It wasn't you I quoted, anyway.
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post #23 of 28 Old 08-20-2012, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

The temperature of the lamp housing will not continue to rise after the energy source is removed.

It wasn't you I quoted, anyway.

with respect, you quoted stefuel who knows what he is talking about:

these lamps require continued forced air cooling after a power shutdown or they will fail: many of us have learned that the hard way

the lamp temperature will continue to rise after power is shut down without benefit of continued forced air cooling: there is so much heat energy in the lamp that once cooling is lost, there is no way to get rid of the heat : even if lamp power is cut at the same time
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post #24 of 28 Old 08-20-2012, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
with respect, you quoted stefuel who knows what he is talking about:

OK, if you insist. wink.gif
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post #25 of 28 Old 08-20-2012, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

I'm guessing they don't teach thermodynamics in school anymore?

I'm guessing it's more like someone wasn't paying attention when they did.
I'm also guessing that you don't and never have had a digital projector and had the pleasure of replacing a $650.00 3,000 hour lamp with only 250 hours on it. I did that three times in one year.

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post #26 of 28 Old 08-20-2012, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

OK, if you insist. wink.gif

Did you write your post while sitting in your thermodynamics class?


You are correct, once the energy source is removed, no more energy will be added to the bulb to make it hotter. This does not mean the the temperature of the bulb cannot increase when/if the power is removed and fan turned off. In the system, the fan is providing instant cooling through convection as it passes room temperature air around what is probably a 200F + bulb. When the power dies, the lack of this heat dissipation into the air stream is what causes the bulb / housing to break.
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post #27 of 28 Old 08-20-2012, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AQuan View Post

I am assembling a parts list of equipment for a Crestron system and got to the question of whether or not to include a UPS. I got sticker shock on this item expecting only a few hundred and seeing they go for north of $1200. I live in a newer high rise in a city and would expect that the building is protected to some extent from dirty power / power losses. Is this a waste of money? i was depating just using a line conditioner that I already had from a previous system. Looking at the Crestron cen-ups-1250.
Thanks

You can save some cash and get these. A 1500VA UPS with 1500VA additional battery pack.

http://www.amazon.com/APC-BR1500G-BACK-UPS-10-Outlet-1500VA/dp/B003Y24DEU/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1345504387
http://www.amazon.com/APC-BR24BPG-Back-UPS-External-Battery/dp/B0047E5B90/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1345504387

This should cover mostly all of the power outages that you may have except those lasting days.

I've had many APC UPS over the last 15 years, and unlike some of the competition, they provide accurate data not fake numbers on the LCD screen.

Typically, UPS's are used to provide power through loss of power situations in mission critical applications such as hospitals, data centers, etc. I think that if you've invested a good amount of money in your system, then it makes more than enough sense to get a UPS.
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post #28 of 28 Old 08-22-2012, 01:19 AM
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And if you have power outtages that last days, you might want to look at a generator in addition to the UPS. There is probably a handy post somewhere to help figure out where that point is and how big of system you need.
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