just add power hdmi over ip 1G - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 03-04-2013, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I am buying a new home and was going to run RG6 and Cat6 to all the rooms. I want to run one central server location with 4 directv boxes and reciever (Yamaha RX-V663)(2 zones), Xbox, blue ray, etc in that rack. I have 7.1 surround in the living room and two speakers on the patio. I am looking into hdmi over ip 1g due to half the cost of the 2g. I am looking to have approx ten hdtvs throughout the house and want to be able to watch anything in any room with remotes. I would also like to do this through a control4 controller. Does anyone have this type of setup or any recomendations? Thanks
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post #2 of 23 Old 03-04-2013, 06:43 PM
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Run a couple or three CAT cables to each location and maybe additional RG cables too. There's plenty of threads about it but that's the CliffsNotes version.
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post #3 of 23 Old 03-04-2013, 07:36 PM
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So the 2G looks like around $400 per source and $400 per display, is that about right? The 1G is available at half of that? And the 100M managed switch that supports 1G is also cheaper. How much are the cheapest managed switches that support 1G & 2G?

Something to also consider is the whole home DVR systems from Dish/DirecTV and that they have some level of distribution built in. Though obviously not as flexible as a matrix solution, you still might be able to shrink the size of your matrix. I think they are coming out with some TVs with built in client capability.

I think the cheapest HDBaseT 8x8 matrix I've seen was around $2500.

You might get better answers in the AV Distribution forum.
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post #4 of 23 Old 03-04-2013, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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whre did you see the 2g for $400? I would love to buy at that price. I have only seen it at approx. $600
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post #5 of 23 Old 03-04-2013, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry. I forgot to mention that I am an IT guy and have access to a 48 port cisco hd over ip compatible switch. So that is not an issue. I was mostly interested in controlling channels and lights with ipads or tablets, cell phones, etc.
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post #6 of 23 Old 03-04-2013, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertredneck View Post

I am looking into hdmi over ip 1g due to half the cost of the 2g.
If you are considering Just Add Power's devices, you may want to audition both the 1g and 2g products before deciding on the 1g version. It is possible you may want the higher quality picture of the 2g version. Note that the 1g and 2g versions are not interoperable.
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post #7 of 23 Old 03-05-2013, 12:22 AM
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Sorry I may have been mistaken on the pricing it seems $500 per source and $580 per display is what I am seeing now, but there aren't that many advertised prices so it may be possible to negotiate with a dealer.
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post #8 of 23 Old 03-05-2013, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az1324 View Post

Something to also consider is the whole home DVR systems from Dish/DirecTV and that they have some level of distribution built in. Though obviously not as flexible as a matrix solution, you still might be able to shrink the size of your matrix. I think they are coming out with some TVs with built in client capability.

+1. The cost of HD distribution / matrix switches / JustAddPower devices as compared to additional client boxes for a DirecTV whole house DVR setup, it can be difficult to justify the HD distribution path unless there are other circumstances... The same is probably true for Dish Network's system as well. Even at $7/month per additional client - it may take many years to break even...
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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

If you are considering Just Add Power's devices, you may want to audition both the 1g and 2g products before deciding on the 1g version. It is possible you may want the higher quality picture of the 2g version. Note that the 1g and 2g versions are not interoperable.

+2. There are significant PQ differences between the 1G and 2G products. I've seen both in "demo" (CEDIA) environments - and while the 1G looked more than acceptable for small displays or non-critical viewing (aka commercial installations), I personally wouldn't recommend it for big screens - especially since HDBaseT solutions can provide a better image with the same client-side cabling. The 2G, however, looks very, very good. Seeing it in person (again, on a trade show floor), I can't recall being able to detect any difference from the original source...

If you're going to invest in a solution like this, I'd suggest going 2G...

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post #9 of 23 Old 03-05-2013, 03:55 PM
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There are a lot of these OEM HDMI over IP offerings like JAP coming on line now at even cheaper prices.
http://www.hdtvsupply.com/hdmi-over-ip-extender.html
Seems like all are made in Taiwan and resold here in US.
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post #10 of 23 Old 03-05-2013, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by neded View Post

There are a lot of these OEM HDMI over IP offerings like JAP coming on line now at even cheaper prices.
http://www.hdtvsupply.com/hdmi-over-ip-extender.html
Seems like all are made in Taiwan and resold here in US.

Yes there are a lot of basic options out there for HDMI extenders and small matrix switches. You can get HDBaseT Lite extenders for under $200 and they work well. You can also get thin 75' HDMI cables with built-in repeaters for under $50 (I use these). The Monoprice 4x4 matrix is $150. My whole 4x4 matrix system cost me under $500. Other cheap solutions that use different methods for sending HDMI over 1 or 2 cat5/6 have varying performance.

But when you start trying to have a matrix of over 4x4 or 8x8 your options really decrease and your costs skyrocket.

JAP is interesting and unique because their packetization allows a standard managed network switch to BE the matrix and scales to some ridiculous dimension. So it is much more flexible than those other solutions. I don't know the details of what managed switches are supported and their costs but there is definitely the opportunity to acquire preowned equipment and save money as the OP has done.

Would be great if JAP prices came down near HDBaseT prices but it's probably not in their best interest to do so as their target customers can afford the higher prices.

Would also be great if HDBaseT added compatibility with managed network switches but there may be intellectual property preventing them from doing so.
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post #11 of 23 Old 03-05-2013, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az1324 View Post

Would also be great if HDBaseT added compatibility with managed network switches but there may be intellectual property preventing them from doing so.
HDBaseT is not ethernet.
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post #12 of 23 Old 03-05-2013, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

HDBaseT is not ethernet.

I realize that but the question is why not. Is the PHY that much different? And does it cost any more for JAP to produce their silicon than Valens.

Seems like there are quite a few HDMI over IP out there that use JPEG. For example this one is pretty cheap: Lenkeng LKV373 < $80 for a RX/TX pair made by www.lenkeng.net

Then there are some interesting other items out of Asia with not much information available:

http://www.foxun.com.tw/product_list/67/1

http://www.summit-hd.com/extender/2012121981.html
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post #13 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az1324 View Post

I realize that but the question is why not. Is the PHY that much different? And does it cost any more for JAP to produce their silicon than Valens.

Raw HDMI data rate exceeds 1Gb (more like 2.5Gb or more), so it doesn't fit into normal 1Gb Ethernet infrastructure, for starters. They (Valens) leveraged the 1Gb and 10Gb twisted-pair technology as the basis for HDBaseT's scheme, though. JAP uses more off-the-shelf Ethernet components (probably built into the SoC / FPGA / whatever form their hardware takes these days).
Quote:
Seems like there are quite a few HDMI over IP out there that use JPEG. For example this one is pretty cheap: Lenkeng LKV373 < $80 for a RX/TX pair made by www.lenkeng.net

Difference is that HDBaseT *is* HDMI - not a "close enough" recompression. We can debate whether close enough is good enough, but that's the difference...


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post #14 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 02:36 PM
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Ah ok so basically Valens uses 4 pair 10Gb signalling without IP overhead.

Do you know what compression JAP 2G uses? I see there are some h.264 encoders out there as well.

I am curious to see the quality of the cheap JPEG based extenders.

Maybe when 10Gb managed switches become widespread there will be some other options.
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post #15 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az1324 View Post

Ah ok so basically Valens uses 4 pair 10Gb signalling without IP overhead.

Correct, although the transmission rates are asymmetric, so it's probably 2-3 pairs forward, one back, since they do 10/100 ethernet plus RS232 / IR / CEC / EDID / etc.
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Do you know what compression JAP 2G uses? I see there are some h.264 encoders out there as well.

Don't recall the name of it off-hand and too lazy to re-google it, but it's the codec "meant to replace H264"...
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Maybe when 10Gb managed switches become widespread there will be some other options.

Don't hold you breath... Residential networking barely needs 100Mb today and if we go to more IP-based distribution (which is where we should be, and would, if the copy protection demons didn't ruin everything), we'll be sending the encoded data around and doing the decompression at the "sink" / display. Even if a 4K Blu-ray replacement requires 8x the datarate (which it shouldn't), we're still only talking about 400Mb/s per stream...

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post #16 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 06:13 PM
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H.265?

Well the 10Gb hardware is going to be mass produced for commercial use anyway, so who knows. Depending on everyone to standardize on a compressed storage and transmission format seems unlikely so there will still have to be receivers or displays that can decompress multiple types and decode multiple types of DRM. Even then, companies could choose to use closed proprietary layers to lock customers to their ecosystems. HDMI might still be the best option.
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post #17 of 23 Old 03-06-2013, 08:55 PM
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I highly doubt the JAP 2G devices use HEVC, which was just recently standardized and is to supplant/replace H.264. I'm not sure there are any shipping hardware encoders/decoders that support it. It's likely using some implementation of H.264--and there is nothing wrong with that.
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post #18 of 23 Old 03-07-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by SweetSpot View Post

I highly doubt the JAP 2G devices use HEVC, which was just recently standardized and is to supplant/replace H.264. I'm not sure there are any shipping hardware encoders/decoders that support it. It's likely using some implementation of H.264--and there is nothing wrong with that.

I could be mistaken, but JAP wouldn't need it to be standardized - just functional. They're a point-to-point solution (they make the devices at both ends) with no interoperability requirements, so they would have no reason to wait for a standard to be ratified... But IIRC talking to the JAP guys they said the 2G was *not* H.264...

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post #19 of 23 Old 03-07-2013, 10:38 PM
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Use of encoding standards like H.264/MPEG-4 AVC and it's replacement HEVC must be licensed. As the few companies that have announced HEVC implementations have yet to start licensing them, I don't see how it would be possible for JAP to be using it. And these are just the software implementations, which require far more processing power. There is no shipping hardware encoding/decoding silicon that supports HEVC--most were only announced last month.

None of this is a dig at JAP. They indeed may not be using H.264 but instead one of the many other alternatives available. It's entirely possible that they're still using JPEG 2000, only at a higher bit-rate. Again, the particular codec they're using is not nearly as important as the end result, which from what I've seen looks great on the 2G devices.
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post #20 of 23 Old 03-08-2013, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

HDBaseT is not ethernet.

I saw this comment a few days ago and I'm a bit confused by this statement. I've read articles and the features of HDBaseT and have seen many times that it supports 100Mbps Ethernet. I have also seen several extender transmitter/receiver pairs that have Ethernet inputs and outputs. I've also read that one of the things you give up if you HDBaseT lite is the Ethernet support.
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post #21 of 23 Old 03-08-2013, 09:44 PM
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Just as HDBaseT is not HDMI, HDBaseT is not ethernet.

HDBaseT uses technology similar to 10GBaseT, like 16 level pulse amplitude modulation, four twisted pairs, etc., but it is not compatible with 10GBaseT ethernet. For one thing, it is not packet based. As I understand it, among other things, the encoding scheme has been modified to provide superior forward error correction because, unlike ethernet, a bad packet cannot just be resent. Video data is being transmitted line by line in real time, and by the time a resent packet could be received, it would be too late to use it. My guess is that HDBaseT also doesn't use the four pairs the same as ethernet. For 100 Mbps etherent, that would require that two of the pairs be dedicated to the 100BaseT link, leaving only two pairs for the much more bandwidth intensive HDMI signal.

Valens originated what is now referred to as HDBaseT as 5Play. The idea was to be able to send video, audio, network data, control signals, and power over a single cable. HDBaseT essentially multiplexes all of these onto a single cable in a proprietary manner.
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post #22 of 23 Old 03-14-2013, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is what I am wanting to do which is why i thought the JAP many to many solution would work.
I have a cisco sg300 28 port poe managed switch already which is compatible with all the JAP equipment.

ALL IN SAME CLOSET
4 directv boxes in a central location
1 xbox in a central location
1 pc in a central location
1 blue ray player in a central location
1 yamaha rx-v663 7.1 in a central location(to be used in living room with big screen tv)
1 4 zone yamaha amplifier in central location


8 hdtvs all over the house
1 7.1 zone in living room
1 audio zone in patio
1 audio zone on front porch
1 audio zone in garage
1 audio zone for backyard

i want to be able to play any source at any location through tablets, cell phones or purchased remotes. we mostly use the music from the directv service. I was looking at control4, homeseer, etc. I do also have a poweredge r610 server if needed to install software onto.

I am an IT network guy by trade but am a nubie to the home automation field.
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post #23 of 23 Old 05-01-2013, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I have ordered the 1G transmitter and Reciever and while I was impressed with the HD quality, I wasn't too impressed with sports or the ticker at the bottom was blurry at times. Hockey and other sports were jittery on all my TVs. 120Hz ans 60Hz, 60" or 37" both results were the same. I would love to find a 2G solution but not for the $600 price tag..I have also seen a 8x8 hd connectivity single wire solution. Does anyone have experience with this product?
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