Hi-rez IP and Security Cameras >1MP - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 03-23-2013, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post




To the earlier poster's point mine aren't accessible remotely, nor do I have the upstream bandwidth to feed "The Machine" multiple 8Mbps H.264 streams.


We had some discussion in the "Person of Interest" TV show thread about high quality IP based and regular security cameras- so we're bringing the discussion to a more appropriate forum area.
The post above is from the "Person of Interest" TV show thread that started the discussion...

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post #2 of 43 Old 03-23-2013, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Stereodude...
Do you stream to a dedicated DVR or computer w/capture card or to a server?

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post #3 of 43 Old 03-23-2013, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by replayrob View Post

Stereodude...
Do you stream to a dedicated DVR or computer w/capture card or to a server?
I have a computer, call it a "server", that's was already on all the time that's now running a FileZilla FTP server that the cameras save footage too. I intended to try out some PVR software, but the FTP solution has worked pretty well so I haven't bothered yet. There is no NVR (Network Video Recorder) or capture card. The cameras detect motion and save their footage to the FTP server via TCP/IP.
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post #4 of 43 Old 03-23-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Installing firmware in a CCTV camera?? confused.gif
The cameras have a Texas Instruments SoC (System on Chip) inside of them. Not that different from the sort of processor/SoC you find in a smart phone. As a result they run software to do their functions and that software (firmware) can be updated.
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Ok, since you brought all of this up, what is the real frame rate, the distance from your router and specs on your PC or DVR?
30FPS for the 2MP camera and 20FPS for the 3MP cameras (when using 3MP mode). They are connected with a CAT6 Ethernet cable to a patch panel in my basement. That is connected to a HP Procurve Power over Ethernet switch which then connects into the rest of my network via a gigabit uplink. The cameras don't use wifi. The CAT6 runs are under 100 feet from the PoE switch. The PC is a few year old Core2Duo E5200 that's running a FileZilla FTP server. The cameras detect motion and then save H.264 encoded recordings to the FTP server. That uses up a few percent of CPU on the system.
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These can only run on a PC and with their software??;
http://hdsecuritystore.com/comp.php
No, you can use them with Dahua's PSS software or other PC based PVR security software packages that support the cameras like Linovision NVR+. You can also use them with a compatible NVR. Or, you can use them with a NAS or PC that's running a FTP server.

Edited: I didn't notice before that the updated firmware increased the 3MP frame rate to 20FPS.
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post #5 of 43 Old 03-23-2013, 09:00 AM
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Is there control of the frame rate and/or choice of resolution anywhere?

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
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post #6 of 43 Old 03-23-2013, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Is there control of the frame rate and/or choice of resolution anywhere?
Yes. See the below screenshots from the web interface (that only works in IE mad.gif ).

Video settings section:


Resolution and frame rate choices:


Note that if you pick the 3MP setting both the main stream and sub stream are limited to 20FPS.
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post #7 of 43 Old 03-23-2013, 09:32 AM
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Is that the only server that works with those cameras?
Why only Idiot Exploiter? That would never fly with me.
What's the deal with sub stream?
I assume power is by POE?

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post #8 of 43 Old 03-23-2013, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Is that the only server that works with those cameras?
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to the FTP server software I'm running on my PC?
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Why only Idiot Exploiter? That would never fly with me.
Because it uses ActiveX browser. It's not the end of the world. After you configure them you don't need the browser, though you can view the video from the camera in real time through the browser. Of course you can also view the stream directly outside a browser if you have an application that can connect directly to the camera like VLC.
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What's the deal with sub stream?
More flexibility. You can stream a lower bitrate feed over the internet, or you can do 24/7 recording of the substream and only record the higher res feed on motion events.
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I assume power is by POE?
Yes, ~4W during the day and 8W at night.
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post #9 of 43 Old 03-23-2013, 08:16 PM
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Are you referring to the FTP server software I'm running on my PC?
Yes.
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You can stream a lower bitrate feed over the internet, or you can do 24/7 recording of the substream and only record the higher res feed on motion events.
Two streams of the same thing? Sounds as more of a waste of bandwidth similar to what some TV stations do with their sub carrier; duplicate their main channel for older 4x3 sets.

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post #10 of 43 Old 03-24-2013, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Two streams of the same thing? Sounds as more of a waste of bandwidth similar to what some TV stations do with their sub carrier; duplicate their main channel for older 4x3 sets.
The hi-def stream is 2048x1536 at 8192Kb/S whereas his "sub stream" is a lower rez stream is 704x480 at 1289Kb/S which is much easier to stream over the internet- especially to a wireless device on the other end.

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post #11 of 43 Old 03-24-2013, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I have a computer, call it a "server", that's was already on all the time that's now running a FileZilla FTP server that the cameras save footage too. I intended to try out some PVR software, but the FTP solution has worked pretty well so I haven't bothered yet. There is no NVR (Network Video Recorder) or capture card. The cameras detect motion and save their footage to the FTP server via TCP/IP.
Thanks for the explanation.
For a business, we would still need some sort of PVR or (PVR software on a PC) with a industry standard control panel that displays all the cameras on one screen and the ability to isolate one screen and time-search, pause/FF/RW, etc, files then archive them to .h264/avi files.

One question- how do you handle file over writing/aging as your hard drive fills? Regular PVR SW simply deletes the oldest files when it needs more room for new files.... it's completely automated and built in to the PRV SW.

Thanks... Rob

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post #12 of 43 Old 03-24-2013, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by replayrob View Post

Thanks for the explanation.
For a business, we would still need some sort of PVR or (PVR software on a PC) with a industry standard control panel that displays all the cameras on one screen and the ability to isolate one screen and time-search, pause/FF/RW, etc, files then archive them to .h264/avi files.
AFAIK, both the compatible NVRs and PC based PVR software can do that.
Quote:
One question- how do you handle file over writing/aging as your hard drive fills? Regular PVR SW simply deletes the oldest files when it needs more room for new files.... it's completely automated and built in to the PRV SW.
Right now I'm not doing much. A little manual upkeep here and there. The camera can be set to delete footage over a certain number of days old though.
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post #13 of 43 Old 03-25-2013, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

AFAIK, both the compatible NVRs and PC based PVR software can do that.
Right now I'm not doing much. A little manual upkeep here and there. The camera can be set to delete footage over a certain number of days old though.
Thanks!

It really seems that IP cams are the way to go moving forward- especially if you're starting from scratch. When you consider that a mid level PC with a couple of 2-4TB drives can be used for the server with reasonably priced software to put it all together.

When I consider our current setup (at work) was over $2500 just for the PC and capture card (Avermedia NV8416EX4 16 Channel Hybrid Video Capture Card PCI-E X4 H.246 MPEG4) without cameras- the IP based server would come in way under that (<$1K) because the IP cams do the .h264 encoding onboard rather than at the PC end. I could see using a small solid state drive (SSD) for boot and PVR OS and two 4TB Seagate drives ($190 each) for storage.
I really like the fact that IP cams have done away with the need for a dedicated (re: expensive!) capture card in the PC!

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post #14 of 43 Old 03-25-2013, 08:49 AM
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Going the IP DVR route, performance & price wise over a PC, any comments?
How about powering these cameras using cat5/6?

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post #15 of 43 Old 03-25-2013, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Going the IP DVR route, performance & price wise over a PC, any comments?
How about powering these cameras using cat5/6?
Sorry, I really didn't do any research on the NVR products. I'm not sure what all they can and can't do.

You can still power them over cat5/cat6 when using a NVR...
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post #16 of 43 Old 03-25-2013, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Going the IP DVR route, performance & price wise over a PC, any comments?
I've bought quite a few dedicated Security DVR's for clients over the years- they're typically way overpriced for whatever hardware they include.
You're actually paying for the phone support at the other end of the line- not the hardware/software. As to that end- in most cases the phone support you get from even the 'better' DVR manufactures like Speco for instance- is pretty much 2nd level nowadays. I've had many questions that they had to refer to the software manufacturer who's in Korea anyway, so 'support' is not what it should be in many cases.

If you build your own and save lots of $$- Google search is your support- and in many cases that's sufficient. Most all of the Security DVR software is a Korean rip-off of another Korean product so once you become acquainted with one software- the rest are very similar. The last few DVR's I put together- I never bothered reading the (PDF) manual other than for the initial log-in password and port forwarding stuff cause it looked so similar the the last few I had worked with.

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post #17 of 43 Old 04-09-2013, 09:25 AM
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I just found this thread recently and I have been researching this subject for a home install.  One blog site I found that has some truly good reviews of the equipment being discussed, as well as examples and software, is located here.  I considered Dahua, Acti, Vivotek and a few others and finally decided on Acti.  One thing I like about their line, besides reasonable pricing/features at all levels, is their NVR software.  It is reportedly one of the best and is included free if you use their cameras.  It has the same web browser interface and runs well on a moderate PC - making it a good replacement for an expensive NVR.  Most of the hardware NVR's I've seen are about $400+ for basic machines.  I personally had enough old parts on hand to rebuild an old PC with 2TB drive on a 3.20Ghz (oc) Q6700 processor.  I just needed to buy a new power supply for $70.  I'm about to order several Acti E32 cameras that are 3MP and am also going to wire it similar to what StereoDude has done, using POE switch and running a parallel network to avoid clogging my home/internet network.  The substream feature is excellent in that it allows a much lower bandwidth drain when accessing through the normal network or internet. 

 

I had been using some inexpensive (i.e. cheap) Lorex wifi cameras, but the resolution is not good and the wifi can be finicky over distance.  The need to run the long cat5 cables was the thing that was holding me back, but I've figured a way to do it through my garage and directly into the unfinished part of the basement where the main router is, so the wiring won't be too bad.  Four cams to the POE switch then only one connection to the PC running as NVR/server in my home office.  Hopefully I have no surprises waiting for me, but I am reasonably confident after much research.


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post #18 of 43 Old 04-10-2013, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I just found this thread recently and I have been researching this subject for a home install.  One blog site I found that has some truly good reviews of the equipment being discussed, as well as examples and software, is located here.  I considered Dahua, Acti, Vivotek and a few others and finally decided on Acti.  One thing I like about their line, besides reasonable pricing/features at all levels, is their NVR software....
Thanks for the info!

To use POE- I know you need a POE switch- do you also need a POE injector? How do you set the voltage for the cameras and does the camera get it's power right from it's RJ45 jack then or do you need to break out the POE from the cat5 before it hits the camera?

Thanks....

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post #19 of 43 Old 04-10-2013, 12:49 PM
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I'm surely not the expert on this stuff, but here's my understanding based on your questions.  If you use a good POE switch, it provides the power to your cameras.  You need to be sure the switch is powered per channel at the rated power needed by your cameras. For example, some are only rated at about 7w and the cameras can draw more.  The power comes right through the RJ45 connection.  An injector is normally used as an in-place upgrade for an existing (non-poe) install.  If you are running new lines/equipment, the switch is all you need.  An injector is more of a mid-span device.  The reviews on switches I have read seem to favor the zyxel line vs the netgear and trendnet stuff.


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post #20 of 43 Old 04-10-2013, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm surely not the expert on this stuff, but here's my understanding based on your questions.  If you use a good POE switch, it provides the power to your cameras.  You need to be sure the switch is powered per channel at the rated power needed by your cameras. For example, some are only rated at about 7w and the cameras can draw more.  The power comes right through the RJ45 connection.  An injector is normally used as an in-place upgrade for an existing (non-poe) install.  If you are running new lines/equipment, the switch is all you need.  An injector is more of a mid-span device.  The reviews on switches I have read seem to favor the zyxel line vs the netgear and trendnet stuff.
Thanks very much, it seems rather simple then.
We've already decided to run new cat6 cables for the cameras so it will be very simple to keep them on their own network with a decent POE switch.
Found a good article describing how POE works:
http://www.veracityglobal.com/support/articles-and-white-papers/poe-explained-part-2.aspx

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post #21 of 43 Old 04-10-2013, 02:31 PM
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Just be sure and verify the switch has the specs needed to support the power requirements (per port and total per switch).

Sometimes you may need to use an injector because the camera needs more power then the POE standard supports. You can usually install the injectors anywhere along the run of cable. I have mine down in the equipment room, along with all of the other gear.

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post #22 of 43 Old 04-11-2013, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

Just be sure and verify the switch has the specs needed to support the power requirements (per port and total per switch).

Sometimes you may need to use an injector because the camera needs more power then the POE standard supports. You can usually install the injectors anywhere along the run of cable. I have mine down in the equipment room, along with all of the other gear.
Thanks... good point.

I've done some research since yesterday- we're going to start replacing our current 12 analog cameras with HD IP cameras over a multi-month span. Probably going to start off with four HD IP cameras then add the remainder later.
Even though we currently have 12 analog cams, some aren't needed any longer and might be able to get away with 8 HD IP cams. The 3Mp ACTi camera draws 6.3W w/the IR LED's on according to the manufacturer's data sheet.
I'm almost settled on the ZyXEL ES1100-16 16 port PoE switch, it can supply 130 watts total- at 16.5W per for the 8 PoE ports. If we ever need more than 8 IP/Poe cams- I'll just get a second PoE switch.

One thing I need to verify is that ACTi does indeed let you use their NVR software for free- I don't see any mention of that on their site???

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post #23 of 43 Old 04-11-2013, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by replayrob View Post


Thanks... good point.

I've done some research since yesterday- we're going to start replacing our current 12 analog cameras with HD IP cameras over a multi-month span. Probably going to start off with four HD IP cameras then add the remainder later.
Even though we currently have 12 analog cams, some aren't needed any longer and might be able to get away with 8 HD IP cams. The 3Mp ACTi camera draws 6.3W w/the IR LED's on according to the manufacturer's data sheet.
I'm almost settled on the ZyXEL ES1100-16 16 port PoE switch, it can supply 130 watts total- at 16.5W per for the 8 PoE ports. If we ever need more than 8 IP/Poe cams- I'll just get a second PoE switch.

One thing I need to verify is that ACTi does indeed let you use their NVR software for free- I don't see any mention of that on their site???


That's the same switch I bought and for mostly the same reasons (power available per channel), though I am in the 4-6 camera range right now.  As for Acti NVR 3.0 - yes, they allow you to use it free for up to 16 cameras, but only their proprietary brand cameras.  It is well received in general and compares favorably to Blue Iris according to the comments I've read on the forums.  Acti also has some tutorial videos on their site on the interface with their cameras and general setup.


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post #24 of 43 Old 04-11-2013, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flint350 View Post


That's the same switch I bought and for mostly the same reasons (power available per channel), though I am in the 4-6 camera range right now.  As for Acti NVR 3.0 - yes, they allow you to use it free for up to 16 cameras, but only their proprietary brand cameras.  It is well received in general and compares favorably to Blue Iris according to the comments I've read on the forums.  Acti also has some tutorial videos on their site on the interface with their cameras and general setup.
Thanks again Flint- very good news about the NVR software. biggrin.gif
Just registered on the ACTi website and downloaded the ACTi NVR 3.0 Workstation and Server software!
One of our guys is going to ADI today so he'll price the E32 cameras for me...

This should be a major upgrade to what we currently have... I'll update when I get the equipment.

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post #25 of 43 Old 04-11-2013, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, my guy just left the local ADI store- he picked up five of the 5Mp ACTi E33 HD IP cams!
I just ordered the ZyXEL ES1100-16 16 port PoE switch- we have plenty of Cat6 on hand, now I just need to put some hardware together for a server. I have two 2Tb drives I pulled from my home NAS last week, I have a old case, some new PSU's sitting around, and even a couple of dual core AMD CPU's and memory. Probably have a spare motherboard sitting somewhere if I look hard enough!

Should be a fun project....

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post #26 of 43 Old 04-12-2013, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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We had to order the five 5Mp ACTi E33 HD IP cams from ADI as they didn't have them in stock yesterday.
The ZyXEL ES1100-16 16 port PoE switch already arrived from Newegg.

I've installed the ACTi NVR Server sw on a computer I put together (found a quad core AMD CPU in my parts pile!).
The free NVR sw needs an activation code which is generated by using the server's MAC ID and a "license key".
I don't have a "license key"? to start the activation process- I'm hoping that a key comes with each camera you purchase from ACTi?

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post #27 of 43 Old 04-17-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by replayrob View Post

The free NVR sw needs an activation code which is generated by using the server's MAC ID and a "license key". I don't have a "license key"? to start the activation process- I'm hoping that a key comes with each camera you purchase from ACTi?

I just went through installing this. Just don't enter anything and continue. Later it will explain to you that you can have up to 16 cameras without a key.

Richard
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post #28 of 43 Old 04-18-2013, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardU View Post

I just went through installing this. Just don't enter anything and continue. Later it will explain to you that you can have up to 16 cameras without a key.
Ok, thanks.... I'll have to see what happens when I try to add their cameras.

Our ADI store "may" have the cameras by tomorrow- but more likely next Mon or Tues.
I've got the temporary server built (Quad core AMD CPU, Win 7 Ultimate X64, 8Gb ram, 60Gb SSD boot/OS drive, two 2TB drives for storage) the ACTi NVR Server software is installed, the ZyXEL ES1100-16 16 port PoE switch is here- just waiting on the 5mp cams now.... frown.gif

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...."

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post #29 of 43 Old 05-02-2013, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Picked up the five ACTi E33 HD IP (5mp) cams yesterday.
Configured them for our 10.10.10.xxx network - they all needed re-focusing- as was expected, it was very simple.
Awesome feed from these cams. I set up one that covers our front counter area- the resolution is so good I can visually ID people walking by outside our front window now! biggrin.gif
Excellent cams!

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post #30 of 43 Old 05-02-2013, 12:56 PM
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I've been following this thread for a while, and I'm glad to see a few people get them working well. Definitely on my to-do list for the house. Anybody know how much bandwidth they use over the LAN at different resolutions? I saw 8 Mbps in the OP, but I would imagine it would be way less at lower resolutions.

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