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post #31 of 53 Old 05-27-2013, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm slow on the uptake so please take a deep breath! So I'm correct with the distribution of DirecTV, genie with it's master and little slave boxes behind the TV. The issue is distribution of HD video (DVD's from PS3) to different TV's. This is accomplished by HDMI matrix switch, thus the brain can tell the switch where to go. These are price items, thus the $4-500 per zone.

Now for the mudding of the water. What is a BD player?? What does use case mean?? How does DirecTV provide distribution of HD video??

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post #32 of 53 Old 05-27-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

I'm slow on the uptake so please take a deep breath!

In.... and... ouuuutttt.... biggrin.gif
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So I'm correct with the distribution of DirecTV, genie with it's master and little slave boxes behind the TV. The issue is distribution of HD video (DVD's from PS3) to different TV's. This is accomplished by HDMI matrix switch, thus the brain can tell the switch where to go. These are price items, thus the $4-500 per zone.

Yes, if you truly want to distribute a DVD/BD player or other sources besides DirecTV, you have to jump into a video distribution system, likely an HDMI matrix switch. Note that the PS3 is probably the worst choice for a distributed video source, as the remote control interface is not natively IR / RS232, and will need extra equipment and hassles just to make it work as such. Just use a standalone BD player.
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Now for the mudding of the water. What is a BD player??

It plays BD's... biggrin.gif BD = Blu-ray Disc. biggrin.gif
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What does use case mean??

As in, how do you plan to use the system. Are you trying to hide equipment for aesthetics, share an expensive media source, keep multiple displays in sync throughout the house, etc. Describing what you want to accomplish with all this gear will help us and the eventual dealer/integrator figure out the best choices for your setup...
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How does DirecTV provide distribution of HD video??

Very well. smile.gif But only for DirecTV. If you want to distribute other sources of HD video, you're into a matrix switch...

Jeff


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post #33 of 53 Old 05-27-2013, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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OK! The intent was to use one source hidden away with a remote. That way I do not have to have equipment at each zone. So one rack one location. Thus the Crestron with an iPad as a master. Each A/V/TV zone would have a remote, audio zones would have a wall unit. The only negative is walking downstairs to insert DVD's into BD player. Does that make any sense??

This means a 8 x 8 matrix switch if I understand you correctly, based on TV's and distribution of DVD/BD?? DirecTV is with the Genie.

PS3 not a good tool to use with the Crestron system?

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post #34 of 53 Old 05-27-2013, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

OK! The intent was to use one source hidden away with a remote. That way I do not have to have equipment at each zone. So one rack one location. Thus the Crestron with an iPad as a master. Each A/V/TV zone would have a remote, audio zones would have a wall unit. The only negative is walking downstairs to insert DVD's into BD player. Does that make any sense??

Yes. But once you make the leap to a matrix switch for distribution, you'd likely want to just attach some number of DirecTV boxes to the matrix to make everything consistent. Then perhaps dedicate a DirecTV box and a BD player to primary zones (even if that's still housed back at the rack) to avoid audio format issues with HDMI, and stay within an 8x8 matrix.
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PS3 not a good tool to use with the Crestron system?

Lousy. The PS3 uses a proprietary bluetooth remote control setup, so you have to adapt it to IR first before it can be integrated into anything - and it's very expensive as BD/DVD players go these days. If you want to use it as a game console, then you have distance issues to be concerned about, as the wireless game controllers must be within range. I'd suggest keeping the game console(s) local to the zones they're expected to be used in, for all those reasons, and also to free up more source inputs on the matrix.

Jeff


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post #35 of 53 Old 05-27-2013, 11:33 PM
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I just wanted to add this on here:
Crestron is a great system, I program/design Crestron systems professionally, and play with all sorts of cool AV gear in my free time.

But:
I don't think a Crestron system with your scope (what you want it to do, distributed video and audio mainly) is going to be near the $10,000 you stated before.

I also want to add:
If I really were going all out, I would want in-wall touchscreens in place of some (most) keypads for house audio control (which could also be used to control everything else).

Some things we typically control from Crestron, besides A/V stuff:
Alarm systems
Pool controls
Security cameras (control DVRs and/or view live on touch panels/iPads)
Access control
Multi-colored mood lighting
Gas fireplaces
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post #36 of 53 Old 05-28-2013, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for your input, it teaches you how dumb you really are! I've learned over time to try to limit my involvement to those things I can control. I find I sleep better and I do not fight with myself or my wife!! This is said so you might understand why I want to limit my involvement in the electronic field in building my house. If you are electronically challenged you limit that challenge, so I'm limiting my home automation.
Quote:
Some things we typically control from Crestron, besides A/V stuff:
Alarm systems
Pool controls
Security cameras (control DVRs and/or view live on touch panels/iPads)
Access control
Multi-colored mood lighting
Gas fireplaces

All these thing would be great to have and control through electronics, but they break. My pockets are not that deep to continually call for the repair person. The $10,000 was a SWAG because they asked for a budget, it's being modified as I learn what my needs are and what they may cost.
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Lousy. The PS3 uses a proprietary bluetooth remote control setup, so you have to adapt it to IR first before it can be integrated into anything - and it's very expensive as BD/DVD players go these days. If you want to use it as a game console, then you have distance issues to be concerned about, as the wireless game controllers must be within range. I'd suggest keeping the game console(s) local to the zones they're expected to be used in, for all those reasons, and also to free up more source inputs on the matrix.

So now I know that the PS3 is only a gaming tool vice a DVD/BD player. I assume it will be positioned in the theater room and controlled by it's own remote? I assume this is tied into the system some how??
Does this mean that it's storage system is also an issue and only controlled within the theater room, based on economics of equipment??

[QUOTEYes. But once you make the leap to a matrix switch for distribution, you'd likely want to just attach some number of DirecTV boxes to the matrix to make everything consistent. Then perhaps dedicate a DirecTV box and a BD player to primary zones (even if that's still housed back at the rack) to avoid audio format issues with HDMI, and stay within an 8x8 matrix.][/QUOTE]

The Crestron brain can control how many TV's, through the matrix switch? The Genie controls 5-6 DiecTV boxes, then those can be mirrored.

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post #37 of 53 Old 05-28-2013, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Now I'm getting dangerous, I'm reading other material like; 4x4 or 8x8 HDMI Matrix Switch over Cat6-PoC

Here is what I'm learning, of course question come from gained knowledge:
1. 3D support
2. supports 1080p 24/60/50 (I assume these are versions of 1080p)
3. 1 RU mountable (rack mounts included)
4. EDID management via USB service port (Extended Display Information Data-this allows for manual setup for multi-display system)
5. RS-232 serial interface for 3rd party control (Control system like Crestron)
6. routed IR from zone to control matrix plus source devices (this is me controlling the system from any end zone)
7. 4 dual RJ-45 extender output sockets (I read it but don't fully understand it)
8. HDMI-CAT6 RJ-45 active simultaneously (turn on 8 different outputs at once)
9. PoC- Power over cable allows power up in-room zone receiver via RJ-45 from matrix (what receiver would you have at the end zone)

Question: what is HDBaseT solution??
Question: are there limits to run distance for RG6, Cat6 and HDMI cables??

So you have a HDMI matrix switch; 4 or 8 sources in and 4 or 8 sources out. The switch is controlled by the Crestron system. When it says over Cat6 means there is both HDMI and Cat6 cable is used in the output signal?

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post #38 of 53 Old 05-28-2013, 01:31 PM
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^^^^

you are getting dangerous smile.gif this is where you need to start talking to professional installers and hear what they tell you before you go further

HDBase T ia a balun that allow you to send HDMI video and audio over long runs of CAT 6: this is what the pros use for sending high quality signals over CAT 6 in homes

8x8 matrix switchers are typically controlled by RS232 commands: some control systems like Crestron or RTI can also provide feedback to tell you the state of the switch which may or may not be useful to you: many matrix switchers have HDBaseT converters built in: and some have simultaneous HDMI outs too: 8x8 switchers are expensive: the installer you ultimately select should be involved in this so he can install a switch he has experience with.

any of these high end systems can handle IR, RS232, or Ethernet control and many have 2 way drivers that give you feedback: for example a tuner can display the song name and artist

at this point you should concentrate on talking to installation pros and see what they say: and prewiring the home so that any solution you ultimately select is supported: you don't have to commit to a particular component or control system at this point: there is a big learning curve to this stuff as you have already figured out...
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post #39 of 53 Old 05-28-2013, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

Now I'm getting dangerous, I'm reading other material like; 4x4 or 8x8 HDMI Matrix Switch over Cat6-PoC

Here is what I'm learning, of course question come from gained knowledge:
1. 3D support
2. supports 1080p 24/60/50 (I assume these are versions of 1080p)
3. 1 RU mountable (rack mounts included)
4. EDID management via USB service port (Extended Display Information Data-this allows for manual setup for multi-display system)
5. RS-232 serial interface for 3rd party control (Control system like Crestron)
6. routed IR from zone to control matrix plus source devices (this is me controlling the system from any end zone)
7. 4 dual RJ-45 extender output sockets (I read it but don't fully understand it)
8. HDMI-CAT6 RJ-45 active simultaneously (turn on 8 different outputs at once)
9. PoC- Power over cable allows power up in-room zone receiver via RJ-45 from matrix (what receiver would you have at the end zone)

Question: what is HDBaseT solution??
Question: are there limits to run distance for RG6, Cat6 and HDMI cables??

So you have a HDMI matrix switch; 4 or 8 sources in and 4 or 8 sources out. The switch is controlled by the Crestron system. When it says over Cat6 means there is both HDMI and Cat6 cable is used in the output signal?

markrubin answered a lot, but I thought I'd throw in some points.

HDBaseT is a newer technology, it's awesome for long CAT6 runs. I'm not going to say it's perfect, but it's pretty reliable.

It sounds like you're looking at a bunch of different types of HDMI matrices. Just to go over a few types. Your basic matrix will have a certain number of HDMI inputs and outputs (Ex. 4x2 = 4 in/2 out, 8x8 8 in/8out and so forth). Some matrices however will have an ethernet port as an output. These will require a receiver at the display end which will essentially convert your ethernet to HDMI. Another type is one who has both HDMI outputs and ethernet ouputs. SnapAV for example makes matrices like this. In most cases this is a mirrored output meaning each output has both an HDMI and an ethernet. A 4x4 for example would have 4 inputs/4 pairs of outputs (HDMI/Ethernet). A true representation would be a 4x4:2. You could run 8 total displays but the HDMI and ethernet in output 1 would have the same signal and so forth for 2, 3, and 4.

Hope this helps and doesn't just add to the confusion. Feel free to PM me with anything.

Ryan Siu
Founder, Owner

The Modern Theatre LLC

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post #40 of 53 Old 06-02-2013, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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In my rack will be a 7.1 AVR connect for the home theater, can this AVR be connected to other uses within the A/V distribution?? If so, can both the home theater use and TBD run at the same time? Or is this AVR tied to the HT and nothing else?

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post #41 of 53 Old 06-02-2013, 09:22 AM
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In my rack will be a 7.1 AVR connect for the home theater, can this AVR be connected to other uses within the A/V distribution?? If so, can both the home theater use and TBD run at the same time? Or is this AVR tied to the HT and nothing else?

For A/V distribution of more than two rooms, an AVR isn't helpful for the other zones, and is best dedicated to the zone where it's attached speakers are located. While many AVRs have built-in Internet-based sources and tuners, utilizing those for other zones (as a source) is difficult, from a usability perspective.


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post #42 of 53 Old 06-02-2013, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you! So if I choose to run two surround sounds 7.1 (home theater) and a 5.1 (basement great room), I require two AVR's. Each AVR dedicated to it's surround sound??

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post #43 of 53 Old 06-02-2013, 03:20 PM
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Thank you! So if I choose to run two surround sounds 7.1 (home theater) and a 5.1 (basement great room), I require two AVR's. Each AVR dedicated to it's surround sound??

Yes.


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post #44 of 53 Old 06-02-2013, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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A/V distribution?? If both AVR's function is to support the surround sound in only two rooms, what else can they support?? If you have 5 a/v zones, what supports the other three.
Video is with HDTV-DirecTV, the genie system or DVD/BD. If all TV's use external wall speakers, what supports the other three audio?? If you use ceiling speakers, what supports the audio??

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post #45 of 53 Old 06-02-2013, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Jeff,
I just went to your Rock Creek Theater, AWESOME! I would never leave, my Harleys would never get rode. tongue.gif:p:p

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post #46 of 53 Old 06-02-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

A/V distribution?? If both AVR's function is to support the surround sound in only two rooms, what else can they support?? If you have 5 a/v zones, what supports the other three.
Video is with HDTV-DirecTV, the genie system or DVD/BD. If all TV's use external wall speakers, what supports the other three audio?? If you use ceiling speakers, what supports the audio??

These are all questions best answered once you figure out what you're trying to accomplish in terms of A/V distribution. Again, distributing DirecTV is probably better done with the Genie and the associated parts. Whether you house those boxes in a central rack or at each TV is a separate question. An AVR will be needed for any zone with surround - if you plan to use "external speakers" instead of the TV speakers, that's really the same thing. A soundbar could be a good choice for some of the less-critical areas.
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Jeff,
I just went to your Rock Creek Theater, AWESOME! I would never leave, my Harleys would never get rode. tongue.gif:p:p

Thanks! Note that there's local sources in the theater (BD player, Xbox), with my DirecTV and additional DVD/BD feeds coming from the whole house AV distribution... My video distribution is HD component video, not HDMI, so I've avoided the audio issues that come with HDMI distribution. And since the critical viewing occurs with the local BD player, the lack of 1080p coming from the house video sources isn't an issue.

Jeff


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post #47 of 53 Old 06-03-2013, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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These are all questions best answered once you figure out what you're trying to accomplish in terms of A/V distribution. Again, distributing DirecTV is probably better done with the Genie and the associated parts. Whether you house those boxes in a central rack or at each TV is a separate question. An AVR will be needed for any zone with surround - if you plan to use "external speakers" instead of the TV speakers, that's really the same thing. A soundbar could be a good choice for some of the less-critical areas.

I believe I have stated my intent, I'm having problems with how hardware distribution. Here is my intent, there is only two of us in the equation: Equipment rack in basement with possible small slave rack in theater room. Audio throughout the house, ceiling or wall speakers controlled by wall or remotes. Over 75% of video is in the theater, except 15% the wife in the kitchen or 10% the other TV's.

Main floor:
Theater Rm: A/V/lighting zone (7.1 surround sound)
Great Rm (Kitchen-Dinning-Living): A zone ceiling speakers (4-6)
Kitchen: A/V zone wall speakers (2)
Master Bdrm: A/V zone wall speakers (2)
Master Bathrm: A zone ceiling speakers (2)
Mud Rm: A zone ceiling speakers (2)
Front Porch: A zone ceiling speakers (2)
Sun Rm: A/V zone wall speakers (2)
Bdrm #2: A/V zone wiring only future
Office: A/V zone wall speakers (2)

Question: TV's have poor sound, all are wall mounted. I understand a sound bar my be a better choice than 2-wall speakers. Plan to purchase required LED TV's based on picture quality now add on features. Recommendation for speaker configuration for wall mounted TV's; soundbar, ceiling, wall speaker system??

Basement:
Great Rm: A/V zone (5.1 surround sound) floor/attached wall (own Pan 50" Plasma, Def Tech BP2000 & surround now) wall-less intrusive up stairs. This area is gym and play room (pool & shuffleboard & air hockey table) darker environment good for plasma
Bdrm #3 A/V zone wiring only future
Bdrm #4: A/V zone wiring only future

Outside:
Patio: A zone rock speakers (2-4)

Equipment: TBD
Single rack with a Crestron brain
HDTV-DirecTV w/ Genie & 4-6 minis at each TV
DVD/BD storage/player (300-400)
PS3 own now located in Home Theater
Apple TV own now
TBD matrix switch
AVR-7.1 own now
AVR-5.1 own now

Wiring: TBD
Cat6, RG6, HDMI, 14/2-16/2-16/4 speaker wire

Home Theater: (24’ x 14’ x 9’) Dedicated w/adjustable lighting
Fixed screen: TBD 110” > flat or curved based on L/R/C speakers behind (more room) or the side of the screen.
Projector: HDTV sports/movies (75%), DVD/BD (20%), PS3 photos/videos (5%) example: Sony HW50ES
Speakers: In wall, behind screen
Seating: 2 rows, prime center rear

Controls:
Remote
Wall

Is this an initial game plan? This is a major accomplishment from my start, I was totally ignorant and could not spell a/v. Now I'm only practically ignorant, but I'm moving forward. To say 16/2 or 16/4 speaker wire and know how they function is high speed internet to me.

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post #48 of 53 Old 06-03-2013, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udtsealeod View Post

I believe I have stated my intent, I'm having problems with how hardware distribution. Here is my intent, there is only two of us in the equation: Equipment rack in basement with possible small slave rack in theater room. Audio throughout the house, ceiling or wall speakers controlled by wall or remotes. Over 75% of video is in the theater, except 15% the wife in the kitchen or 10% the other TV's.

I don't think you've listed your desired video / audio sources before now... But as we've discussed previously, moving from a relatively simple DirecTV distribution to a full matrix switch will depend on your desired sources. With ~8-10 displays, a number of sources, and a normal expectation of 1-2 simultaneous users, you're probably looking at a matrix...
Quote:
Question: TV's have poor sound, all are wall mounted. I understand a sound bar my be a better choice than 2-wall speakers. Plan to purchase required LED TV's based on picture quality now add on features. Recommendation for speaker configuration for wall mounted TV's; soundbar, ceiling, wall speaker system??

I hate in-ceiling speakers for front LCR usage. Speakers are way too far from the image so dialog is coming "from space" and it's weird. In-wall / on-wall / LCR speakers or a soundbar would all be good choices. The answer will depend on budget, aesthetics and wiring / equipment location(s). I use an LCR speaker (not a powered soundbar) in my master as I planned for that eventuality and hid the local equipment (AVR) in the family room AV cabinet which shares a wall. But I also share the whole-house audio speakers in the master with that AVR, so I get either surround channels from the AVR, or stereo audio from the whole-house audio system.
Quote:
Equipment: TBD
Single rack with a Crestron brain
HDTV-DirecTV w/ Genie & 4-6 minis at each TV
DVD/BD storage/player (300-400)
PS3 own now located in Home Theater
Apple TV own now
TBD matrix switch
AVR-7.1 own now
AVR-5.1 own now

If you're expecting to budget for and have an integrated Crestron system installed, you should concentrate on defining your use cases - what do you want to be able to do / view / listen to and where - and discuss the rest with an installer. The matrix switch selections and other components will need to involve the installer.
Quote:
Home Theater: (24’ x 14’ x 9’) Dedicated w/adjustable lighting
Fixed screen: TBD 110” > flat or curved based on L/R/C speakers behind (more room) or the side of the screen.
Projector: HDTV sports/movies (75%), DVD/BD (20%), PS3 photos/videos (5%) example: Sony HW50ES
Speakers: In wall, behind screen
Seating: 2 rows, prime center rear

I would break out any discussions about gear for the theater separately from the rest of the home A/V distribution - those will likely drive enough discussion for their own thread, and should probably go into the other forum...
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Is this an initial game plan? This is a major accomplishment from my start, I was totally ignorant and could not spell a/v. Now I'm only practically ignorant, but I'm moving forward. To say 16/2 or 16/4 speaker wire and know how they function is high speed internet to me.

Yes, getting a handle on the basic terminology and the types of distribution products available is a good thing. Approaching a custom installer with a working understanding of the gear is being a good "informed consumer". And being armed with that knowledge can also help you choose an installer that knows his stuff, and isn't ripping you off... (good advice for all contractor relationships, regardless of topic!)

Jeff


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post #49 of 53 Old 06-12-2013, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Home & theater automation without the high-end program control, how can you get there. I have found through this forum that unless your a program/tech person, you need to buy an installer to setup a system. Then you need to continue subsidizing him to update and my correction. How can you skin the cat without pay for the porch?? Humor only!! biggrin.gif

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post #50 of 53 Old 06-15-2013, 02:03 AM
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Def Tech speakers with 17" built in woofers.

While you may feel they are high end speakers most surround sound zones today offer a better experience with a separate subwoofer on a dedicated channel. The other 5 or 7 or 9 and so on surround channels lack subwoofer drivers in them.
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post #51 of 53 Old 06-15-2013, 02:10 AM
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Thank you for provide feedback to my question, I’m learning a great deal. For this discussion let’s say I have a budget of $10,000 for home automation, TBD on real budget based on my gain of knowledge of subject.

1. Music throughout the home, this will be from ceiling speakers. Question; Great Room, Master Bedroom, and Sun Room have TV’s mounted over the fireplace. TV speakers are poor, so I would like wall speakers to replace TV speakers. These are directional, but can these replace the ceiling speakers and double as music speakers?? Can they be used in conjunction with the ceiling speakers??

2. TV throughout the home, this will come from Direct TV, DVD, and TBD on streaming based on internet feed (poor local download speed).

3. Question; Master Bedroom and bathroom have ceiling speakers for music (2 zones per your recommendation) and a TV with wall speakers. Is that 3 zones; 2 for music and 1 for TV, or 2 zones 1 bathroom and 1 bedroom??

10,000 could get ate up on just an empty rack and two 46" TVs
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post #52 of 53 Old 06-15-2013, 02:22 AM
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Crestron is the absolute worst brand you could consider on any kind of reasonable budget. They are the most costly brand you could go with. RTI is the way to go. Flexible as hell. Customizable. Not a what u see is what your stuck with like control 4/savant. Hell u can even find used gear easily on eBay for rti to save some change.
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post #53 of 53 Old 06-15-2013, 02:33 AM
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You should give me a call. It's so much easier then typing. I can give you a rundown and educate you from beginning to end and everything in between and get all your questions answered. Private message me if you want.
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