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post #1 of 52 Old 03-14-2007, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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A good friend just purchased a yacht (100'). He would like automate a few things and share resources. Here's the skinny:

- Each room has one Cat-5e & and one RG6
- Each bedroom (3) has satellite receiver
- The salon has satellite receiver, surround sound & Sony 400 DVD Changer.
- Media Center PC - Movies & Music

He would like:

1. To be able to share sources (changer) between roooms (master).
2. Control Lights
3. Control Drapes in Salon
4. Setup a 4 Camera System

Needless to say it is a huge pain in the ass to run cables between and around the vessel. Can he share multiple sources via either the single cat-5 or RG6? He does not care aobut HD signals. Is there a standard def matrix switcher available? And of course one HA system to rule them all.

I am anxiously awaiting yourfeed back?
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post #2 of 52 Old 03-14-2007, 09:03 AM
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It is my firm belief Kaleidescape is the ideal solution for the high end boating public.

jcmitch

http://www.kaleidescape.com/

ps It will not solve your automation or live TV needs, but it is an excellent entertainment system soluton. A Crestron processor, PVID, and Room Modules, would do the trick for your listed gear.
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post #3 of 52 Old 03-14-2007, 05:29 PM
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Kimvi, MainLobby is an excellent solution for the hardware and media control needs of the yacht. We have several dealers that are using MainLobby for this kind of solution. Supports wireless, TCPIP, serial and IR infrastructures.

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post #4 of 52 Old 03-14-2007, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothtlk View Post

Kimvi, MainLobby is an excellent solution for the hardware and media control needs of the yacht. We have several dealers that are using MainLobby for this kind of solution. Supports wireless, TCPIP, serial and IR infrastructures.

What hardware would use in this situation?
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post #5 of 52 Old 03-15-2007, 03:43 PM
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Some suggested hardware config:

Each bedroom (3) has satellite receiver
I assume these are IR controllable. You can use a Global Cache IP to IR transmitter at each receiver (each room).

- The salon has satellite receiver, surround sound & Sony 400 DVD Changer.
Likely, this is where a PC should be located to control the Sony CX777ES changer (my assumption) via serial cable direct to PC, or other Sony changers via IR using Cinemar's USBIR6 IR transmit / receive hardware.


- Media Center PC - Movies & Music
With MainLobby, you would not be using the Media Center application, just the operating system. Movies is then run via DVDLobby and TheaterTek DVD player, and Music would be handled multizone with MusicLobby and J. River Media Center as the audio player. Each PC can then be an audio zone, or each PC can connect to a "whole boat" audio system like a Russound Cav6, Nestreams Musica, Nuvo Concerto, Elan S12 etc. These systems can then be centrally controlled and remotely controlled by the MainLobby touchscreens or wireless UMPC PCs (like a TabletKiosk or Samsung Q1).


He would like:

1. To be able to share sources (changer) between roooms (master).
The movie changer has to output it's video somehow. Your application is perfect for hard drive based, which doesn't require an analog routing of video / audio. DVDLobby handles both changer and hard drive based movies seamlessly (user doesn't need to know where it is located).


2. Control Lights
Many types supported here like Insteon / UPB / soon Zwave, Vantage Infusion and Q series, Litetouch System 5000, Radio RA, Grafik Eye, etc. Choose from the short list.


3. Control Drapes in Salon
Easy, once you select which technology you are using for controlling lights as most of the above can also control a contact relay to control a Somfy lightshade motor (as one example).

4. Setup a 4 Camera System
IP Based would be the suggestion. MainLobby supports most of the major IP cameras including remote pan / tilt / screenshot from any touchscreen or wireless device running MainLobby client.

Lots of choices, but it sounds like you need to go mostly with an IP based solution due to your limited wiring options.

Sounds like a fun project.

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post #6 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimvi View Post

1. To be able to share sources (changer) between roooms (master).
2. Control Lights
3. Control Drapes in Salon
4. Setup a 4 Camera System

Needless to say it is a huge pain in the ass to run cables between and around the vessel. Can he share multiple sources via either the single cat-5 or RG6? He does not care aobut HD signals. Is there a standard def matrix switcher available? And of course one HA system to rule them all.

kimvi,

There are many ways to skin this cat, as with all these questions. It sounds like you do installations of some sort. What is your experience level and are there any automation systems with which you've already worked?

The simplest answer regarding how to distribute the video would be to modulate it over the Cat5 in one of the lower numbered CATV channels. Search a modulator from "Channel Plus" or another company like them. This is going to be the easiest way to do his video cameras anyhow, so you might as well order one and play with it. It might be sufficient for doing the other video sources, too.

Is there any kind of control already selected for the drapes in the salon?

As long as everything you select can be controlled by serial or infrared, you've got many options for control. Is there anything that is already your comfort zone?

Kind regards,
Justis Peters
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post #7 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 06:49 PM
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I'm hoping he's just gathering information to properly vet an installation firm. This shouldn't be a novice adventure. A cheap yacht in this category runs $3 million, the big boys can go 10 or more times that amount.

jcmitch
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post #8 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcm View Post

I'm hoping he's just gathering information to properly vet an installation firm. This shouldn't be a novice adventure. A cheap yacht in this category runs $3 million, the big boys can go 10 or more times that amount.

JCM,

You've got a very valid point. There are people on these forums who DIY houses that are worth that much all the time, though. It's hard to tell what he's after until he answers more questions. Maybe I was trying to assume too much from his questions, but it sounded like he was trying to keep it easy and simplistic.

Based on your comments about the class of control a yacht like this might expect, though, I would say that the Cinemar product that smoothtlk was recommending will not fit the bill. Maybe I need to see it in person, but I definitely wouldn't put it up next to Crestron or AMX.

Kind regards,
Justis
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post #9 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 07:31 PM
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Justis, At the recent EHX show in Orlando last week, we had two mega yacht builders in our booth for quite some time. There were highly interested in MainLobby for their $40mill yacht business. You probably should take a look We have a few Control4 dealers as well (and Crestron and AMX).

There have been MainLobby based automation / media control systems that go from $2000 to now over a $1Mill. Of course the great majority of the higher price tags have been for controlled hardware and dealer professional services. But, the software has not reached it's limits.

For this job, the merits of the dealer / installer are very important elements to success. The marine environment plays havoc on hardware. Experience with these issues is key.

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post #10 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 08:35 PM
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The capability of the initial installer isn't even the strongest issue. If it doesn't work, open the yellow pages and hire a new one. The real problem is that these things move, all the time, all over the world, and they need service. It is imperitive to use the most standard equipment in the most standard configuration. Ideal choices include worldwide support. A multi-million dollar home is a cakewalk.

jcmitch
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post #11 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcm View Post

The capability of the initial installer isn't even the strongest issue. If it doesn't work, open the yellow pages and hire a new one. The real problem is that these things move, all the time, all over the world, and they need service. It is imperitive to use the most standard equipment in the most standard configuration. Ideal choices include worldwide support. A multi-million dollar home is a cakewalk.

jcmitch

Very true - if it were my $10M+ yacht, that would insinuate that I had a house at least that nice. I probably also had a series of cars and other property that would insinuate a net worth of, well, a lot. In that event, there's no way I'd use a software engine to get the work done - this project screams AMX/Crestron/etc.

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post #12 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 09:13 PM
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jcm, the hardware is standard - it's a PC. The rest of the equipment is same as with hardware based controllers. ie: A/V switchers, ligthing controllers, etc.
The software configuration is accesible world wide via the Internet. The original dealer does the service worldwide.

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post #13 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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There are many ways to skin this cat, as with all these questions.

I am just trying to figure out if there is a piece of "hardware" will satisfy my need to distribute my sources to zones via Cat-5 or RG6. No seems able or willing to just suggest a make and model or even ac company for me to research. Distribution is one part of the puzzle. Once the sources are distributed I still have to figure out out how to control them. In my mind I plan on using wireless touchscreens for contorl.

Quote:


It sounds like you do installations of some sort. What is your experience level and are there any automation systems with which you've already worked?

I am relatively new to the HA, but I have over 10 years designing, installing & administering networks (MCSE and CCNA certified. I an starting a new business and setting up my new construction home (5000 sq/ft ,- 10 sources, 12 zones, Lighting, Security, Cameras, HVAC, Irrigation, etc) as my show room. Currently evaluating CQG, Homeseer & ML.

Quote:


The simplest answer regarding how to distribute the video would be to modulate it over the Cat5 in one of the lower numbered CATV channels. Search a modulator from "Channel Plus" or another company like them. This is going to be the easiest way to do his video cameras anyhow, so you might as well order one and play with it. It might be sufficient for doing the other video sources, too.

I had already planning on using modulators for the cameras, but I will look into this option for sharing the DVD changer & HTPC as well.

Quote:


Is there any kind of control already selected for the drapes in the salon?

No. This one is new to me.
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post #14 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcm View Post

I'm hoping he's just gathering information to properly vet an installation firm. This shouldn't be a novice adventure. A cheap yacht in this category runs $3 million, the big boys can go 10 or more times that amount.

jcmitch

You are correct. I am primarily gathering information. This particular yacht is north of $7 million.
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post #15 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothtlk View Post

Justis, At the recent EHX show in Orlando last week, we had two mega yacht builders in our booth for quite some time. There were highly interested in MainLobby for their $40mill yacht business. You probably should take a look We have a few Control4 dealers as well (and Crestron and AMX).

Smoothtlk,

Sorry that I missed seeing you at EHX. I had registered to attend, but I was (and still am) laid up and recovering from jaw surgery. It's taken a lot longer to recover than I had hoped. Maybe I can check out the product at CEDIA this fall. If you have a rep that travels to my area (Raleigh, NC), I'd be glad to look at a demo.

Kind regards,
Justis
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post #16 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcm View Post

The capability of the initial installer isn't even the strongest issue. If it doesn't work, open the yellow pages and hire a new one. The real problem is that these things move, all the time, all over the world, and they need service. It is imperitive to use the most standard equipment in the most standard configuration. Ideal choices include worldwide support. A multi-million dollar home is a cakewalk.

This is a really, really good point. I'm glad that you brought it up.

Kind regards,
Justis
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post #17 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justis Peters View Post

This is a really, really good point. I'm glad that you brought it up.

Kind regards,
Justis

Well, I guess you were right about looking to beef up your post count

Just kidding, welcome to AVS. Always nice to have experts around to keep a good balance between the DIY'ers and the pros.

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post #18 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimvi View Post

I am just trying to figure out if there is a piece of "hardware" will satisfy my need to distribute my sources to zones via Cat-5 or RG6. No seems able or willing to just suggest a make and model or even ac company for me to research. Distribution is one part of the puzzle. Once the sources are distributed I still have to figure out out how to control them. In my mind I plan on using wireless touchscreens for contorl.

First off, I already suggested a company. I suggested that you find a modulator from "Channel Vision". I would have pasted a link, but I wasn't allowed to, since I was still considered a newbie. Here's a link to a viable candidate. There are probably hundreds of modulators that would do the trick. This is just an example:
http://www.smarthome.com/7704cm.html


Quote:


I am relatively new to the HA, but I have over 10 years designing, installing & administering networks (MCSE and CCNA certified. I an starting a new business and setting up my new construction home (5000 sq/ft ,- 10 sources, 12 zones, Lighting, Security, Cameras, HVAC, Irrigation, etc) as my show room. Currently evaluating CQG, Homeseer & ML.

Your IT background will serve you well. It will also frustrate you. I come from a heavy IT background, too and have been in home automation for two years now. You won't get as much respect from the A/V guys as you think might be appropriate and you won't get as much help from them as you think would be courteous. I haven't entirely figured out the mentality yet, but they're all a little territorial and snooty. I remember the IT world fondly, where everybody knows he'll need a tricky question answered tomorrow and will gladly answer one for someone else today. In some areas, particularly in the more complex home automation, the old school guys are starting to get this concept and be more open with their help.

I just wanted to forewarn you where I've experience grief in making this transition.

If CQC, HomeSeer, and MainLobby are your primary candidates, then I recommend that you do some more research. It sounds like you are basing your candidates on what you find on the net. At the very least, you need to know what your competition is using. It's not any of those 3, or at least in not any large numbers. Look for big names like Crestron, AMX, Elan, Vantage, Lutron. The one that I've put my weight behind (Control4) is starting to become a big name. Go to some trade shows and start reading some of the trade rags.

Personally, I think that the PC based stuff and more open source approaches are getting ready to blossom. Most consumers don't take them seriously, want to do it themselves, or don't have the money. But it's still starting to come around.

You're welcome to chat me up later (when I'm not so sleepy) about what I've learned in leaving IT and coming to this business. Particularly if you've got profitable opportunities that involve me being in the Carribean (just kidding)

Back on point here. JCM had an excellent point regarding the fact that your buddy's yacht is not going to stay parked on top of a foundation. It is important that you stick to older and more proven technologies so that a talented electronics expert in another port somewhere might be able to figure it out. Unfortunately, this means that you may have to mess with some things that aren't quite as easy to do, like infrared distribution and controlling everything with infrared. It would also be a good idea to keep printed copies of all the product manuals somewhere in the boat along with design documents for the crew in the next port.

As much as wireless touchscreens would be nice, you really shouldn't do them unless it's entirely ancillary to the operation of the system or your buddy is just willing to accept the consequences if they stop working until he's back at your port. Your best bet would be to use remote controls that are popular and highly supported on RemoteCentral.com. Then, each room would have an infrared receiver and would distribute its signals from there back to the devices.

As far as how to get your video signals around the boat, I think that the RG-6 is a better choice. You're going to want to use the Cat5e for networking gear and, with only one port, you can at least hookup a switch in each room. There are a few products that have just recently hit the market that will turn your sources into IP streams, but the winners and losers haven't really proven themselves yet. It doesn't fit into the "tried and true and serviceable in any port" bandwagon that I'm jumping onto here. There are also analog video over CAT5 solutions, but they pretty much take over the whole wire. RG-6, on the other hand, can handle all sorts of things modulated over it.

I'm getting sleepy and have to be at a client site in the morning. Write back and let me know what question you want answered next.

Kind regards,
Justis
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post #19 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justis Peters View Post

First off, I already suggested a company. I suggested that you find a modulator from "Channel Vision". I would have pasted a link, but I wasn't allowed to, since I was still considered a newbie. Here's a link to a viable candidate. There are probably hundreds of modulators that would do the trick. This is just an example:
http://www.smarthome.com/7704cm.html




Your IT background will serve you well. It will also frustrate you. I come from a heavy IT background, too and have been in home automation for two years now. You won't get as much respect from the A/V guys as you think might be appropriate and you won't get as much help from them as you think would be courteous. I haven't entirely figured out the mentality yet, but they're all a little territorial and snooty. I remember the IT world fondly, where everybody knows he'll need a tricky question answered tomorrow and will gladly answer one for someone else today. In some areas, particularly in the more complex home automation, the old school guys are starting to get this concept and be more open with their help.

I just wanted to forewarn you where I've experience grief in making this transition.

If CQC, HomeSeer, and MainLobby are your primary candidates, then I recommend that you do some more research. It sounds like you are basing your candidates on what you find on the net. At the very least, you need to know what your competition is using. It's not any of those 3, or at least in not any large numbers. Look for big names like Crestron, AMX, Elan, Vantage, Lutron. The one that I've put my weight behind (Control4) is starting to become a big name. Go to some trade shows and start reading some of the trade rags.

Personally, I think that the PC based stuff and more open source approaches are getting ready to blossom. Most consumers don't take them seriously, want to do it themselves, or don't have the money. But it's still starting to come around.

You're welcome to chat me up later (when I'm not so sleepy) about what I've learned in leaving IT and coming to this business. Particularly if you've got profitable opportunities that involve me being in the Carribean (just kidding)

Back on point here. JCM had an excellent point regarding the fact that your buddy's yacht is not going to stay parked on top of a foundation. It is important that you stick to older and more proven technologies so that a talented electronics expert in another port somewhere might be able to figure it out. Unfortunately, this means that you may have to mess with some things that aren't quite as easy to do, like infrared distribution and controlling everything with infrared. It would also be a good idea to keep printed copies of all the product manuals somewhere in the boat along with design documents for the crew in the next port.

As much as wireless touchscreens would be nice, you really shouldn't do them unless it's entirely ancillary to the operation of the system or your buddy is just willing to accept the consequences if they stop working until he's back at your port. Your best bet would be to use remote controls that are popular and highly supported on RemoteCentral.com. Then, each room would have an infrared receiver and would distribute its signals from there back to the devices.

As far as how to get your video signals around the boat, I think that the RG-6 is a better choice. You're going to want to use the Cat5e for networking gear and, with only one port, you can at least hookup a switch in each room. There are a few products that have just recently hit the market that will turn your sources into IP streams, but the winners and losers haven't really proven themselves yet. It doesn't fit into the "tried and true and serviceable in any port" bandwagon that I'm jumping onto here. There are also analog video over CAT5 solutions, but they pretty much take over the whole wire. RG-6, on the other hand, can handle all sorts of things modulated over it.

I'm getting sleepy and have to be at a client site in the morning. Write back and let me know what question you want answered next.

Kind regards,
Justis

I too am getting tired. I will write you after a few hours sleep.
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post #20 of 52 Old 03-18-2007, 10:41 PM
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I'll go slowly this time, Crestron PVID, oh and avoid modulation if you can, flatscreen TVs don't work very well w/ low rez sources.


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post #21 of 52 Old 03-19-2007, 02:21 PM
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Am I the only one that finds it strange that for a $7M yacht, SD is "good enough" -- no HD wanted? The wiring requirements would be more stringent but for this kind of money I am sure it could be done.

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post #22 of 52 Old 03-19-2007, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayW View Post

Am I the only one that finds it strange that for a $7M yacht, SD is "good enough" -- no HD wanted? The wiring requirements would be more stringent but for this kind of money I am sure it could be done.

Murray

A buddy of mine dumped $150K on his Crestron setup. Yet when I walked in for him to show it off, I immediately winced as he had projected a compressed DirecTV SD image onto his 10' screen. He does have a scaler for his $$, but I can't believe neither he nor the installer thought about source material longer (or upon seeing the results).

Just because you've got big $$ doesn't mean you've got good sense.

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post #23 of 52 Old 03-19-2007, 06:42 PM
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kimvi,
I've seen reliability mentioned with respect to a PC front end. I don't know that there are any real reliability issues there. CQC is quite stable and from what I read so is ML though I'm sure you're more likely to find a Crestron dealer at ports around the world.

What hasn't been mentioned is you might want to get with someone familiar with marine wiring. I only know enough to say that salt air and close proximity to radio transmitters can add a dimension not seen in the home as far as corrosion and EMI goes. Sleuthing out corroded connections in a couple years or having the TV change channels every time the mike is keyed won't be fun. Some of this might play havoc with standard PC hardware too. If you're already familiar with this forget I said anything.

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post #24 of 52 Old 03-19-2007, 07:45 PM
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Yes, Les, part of the conversation we had with the two yacht builders in EHX was to use manufacturing rated PCs (that run assembly line processes in harsh environments) that use conformal coatings and circuit board that are in resin.

We also had a lot of interest in the NEMA washdown rated touchscreen we had at the show that a Disney ride / entertainment rep found interest for it's integrity. As one of the yacht builders said "If the captain can reach it with a hose, he will"

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post #25 of 52 Old 03-19-2007, 08:09 PM
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I'm not saying that PCs are unreliable, only that if I were mega-rich, or if I were a CI, no way in hell would I install a windows-based software automation engine on my yacht. JCM hit it on the nose - too many different ways to setup the whole box (not just the HA software), too many different things to go wrong. Heck, i'm having a crappy time just replacing all my 3way switches because there's technically 7 different 3way wiring standards, and I think the builder used all of them in my house. I would absolutely want a closed-environment and widely known construct such as AMX or Crestron with a strict adherence to AMX/crestron programming standards and equipment.

In the end, in that particular market, certainty of operation and certainty of support is infinitely more important than any fancy bell or whistle or ability to do the yada-yada while hooked into the badada-bada.

This too from a hardcore CQC-DIY guy using what I still maintain is the unparalleled software engine on the planet. I have yet to see a single person on any of the forums i'm on using another engine that remotely approaches the average level of functionality the average CQC install has. And still, until you can find a licensed installer who does multiple installs per month in every single state and in most of the 1st world and some second world countries, CQC (or even MainLobby) is just the wrong answer for the yachting business.

Now multi-million dollar homes that don't move, that's another thread altogether. Then again, who in the Bay Area *doesn't* own a house >$1m?

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post #26 of 52 Old 03-19-2007, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by IVB View Post

Well, I guess you were right about looking to beef up your post count

Just kidding, welcome to AVS. Always nice to have experts around to keep a good balance between the DIY'ers and the pros.

Thanks for the welcome I've derived a lot of benefit from AVS Forum over the past couple years, usually as the result of searches on Google. I figured that it was about time for me to give back a little, so I joined.

Hopefully, I'm contributing to the balance in a positive direction. Don't know which you need more of, pros or DIY'ers. On both sides, I'm a little surprised at how hostile people get here sometimes, but I guess it's that way in anything that involves lots of money and subjective tastes.

I enjoy your posts on here. I look forward to seeing you around.

Kind regards,
Justis
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post #27 of 52 Old 03-19-2007, 08:58 PM
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The words or phrases 'modulation' or 'SD' should never be mentioned in the context of a 7 million $$ yacht (or home for that matter).

Not to sound like a d*&k, but you really shouldn't be using your pals 7 mil boat as a guinea pig to jump into a new venture. Your first questions in the origianl post show that you have a pretty sizable lack of knowledge in the A/V arena. Do him a favor, research the best Crestron or AMX dealers nearby and put them in touch.

Your own home is the perfect place to learn, not someone elses, regardless of your background. Being an IT professional isn't really any better a place to start an A/V business than coming from any other field. Sure both fields use cat5, but A/V is just as specialized a field, with jsut as many inside secrets that are only learned on the job. A/V work in a yacht especially is a VERY specialized business. JMO, do the right thing and step aside.
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post #28 of 52 Old 03-19-2007, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by IVB View Post

I'm not saying that PCs are unreliable, only that if I were mega-rich, or if I were a CI, no way in hell would I install a windows-based software automation engine on my yacht. JCM hit it on the nose - too many different ways to setup the whole box (not just the HA software), too many different things to go wrong.

You both hit it on the nose here. It's fine if the hardware itself is a PC, but the operating system should be stripped down to only the essentials needed to perform automation tasks. And I'm not talking about Windows with the extras uninstalled. I'm talking about Linux or BSD with only the bare minimum needed for functionality or even a custom OS built from the ground up. Crestron and AMX are basically PC's, too, but they certainly don't run Microsoft Windows.

Most A/V racks these days include at least a few components that are technically PCs. They just get put inside a chassis that has more A/V connections and looks more like traditional A/V gear.

I'm not really sure why I'm defending PC based A/V and automation here. The point is that I hope that Kimvi chooses something that is not based on a user oriented OS like Windows or Mac.

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post #29 of 52 Old 03-19-2007, 11:25 PM
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And I'm not talking about Windows with the extras uninstalled. I'm talking about Linux or BSD with only the bare minimum needed for functionality or even a custom OS built from the ground up. Crestron and AMX are basically PC's, too, but they certainly don't run Microsoft Windows.

A properly stripped down XP system on quality hardware is completely stable, when used as an automation controller and not as a daily use PC, will remain stable for years. It's not a problem. No one complains about the stability of our product, which is running on Windows, if they really treat it as an appliance.

I still agree that this particular application is probably not optimal for a product like ours, but trust me it doesn't suffer on the stability front because it's running on XP.

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Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems, Ltd

www.charmedquark.com

 

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post #30 of 52 Old 03-19-2007, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

A properly stripped down XP system on quality hardware is completely stable, when used as an automation controller and not as a daily use PC, will remain stable for years. It's not a problem. No one complains about the stability of our product, which is running on Windows, if they really treat it as an appliance.

I still agree that this particular application is probably not optimal for a product like ours, but trust me it doesn't suffer on the stability front because it's running on XP.

Agreed completely, my CQC install has been like a rock because I don't muck with the server. Fast as all blazes too, esp with the latest version.

But my issue with a yacht-based install is amount of time for a new guy to support it. I could have setup the PC in 100 different correct ways that have nothing to do with CQC or M$ (choice of drivers, disk config, heck even the first PCI slot I used for my DVR card interfered with my serial card). If I could afford a $7M boat that moved around from place to place, I wouldn't want to have to stop at a particular location for several days while the new guy who hadn't touched my system ever sat down and learned it all. It wouldn't even be a $$ thing - the CI would be harshing my buzz cuz he made me stay at the port too long getting my system up & running again.

Now if it was a $20M house that stayed in one place, where I could rely on the same firm to come out, or perhaps one of only a few competing firms where I wouldn't have to hang out at home while they fixed it, that's another story. In that case, certainty of support speed is known, and a user-oriented OS (thanks Justis, love that word) is completely fine as you can strip it down.

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