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post #151 of 160 Old 09-20-2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

That's great for your own home, I've done the same - buy used Crestron on eBay.

I'm very surprised you would install it for clients, though.
It is shameful that more installers don't take little steps which can save their clients thousands of dollars by knowing which products have a 20+ year lifespan and implementing those solutions.

A new component video switcher (8x8) is about $1,500+ from Key Digital.
A used Extron Crosspoint switcher (8x8) from eBay is about $100.

Crestron gear often has similar price swings, and I have always given a one year full-replacement (with labor) warranty on any gear I sell which is b-stock along with a huge price savings. Customers seem to be just fine with this.

The life expectancy is around 5-10 years on used gear from what I've seen, and the price savings that is passed on is extremely significant.

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post #152 of 160 Old 09-20-2013, 05:02 PM
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Thanks for the great info. I sincerely do appreciate it greatly. smile.gif
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post #153 of 160 Old 09-20-2013, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post

It is shameful that more installers don't take little steps which can save their clients thousands of dollars by knowing which products have a 20+ year lifespan and implementing those solutions.

A new component video switcher (8x8) is about $1,500+ from Key Digital.
A used Extron Crosspoint switcher (8x8) from eBay is about $100.

Crestron gear often has similar price swings, and I have always given a one year full-replacement (with labor) warranty on any gear I sell which is b-stock along with a huge price savings. Customers seem to be just fine with this.

The life expectancy is around 5-10 years on used gear from what I've seen, and the price savings that is passed on is extremely significant.

I had to keep checking the date of this post. Did you just say "component switcher"? You may want to visit this website http://www.timeanddate.com/
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post #154 of 160 Old 09-22-2013, 09:51 PM
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I had to keep checking the date of this post. Did you just say "component switcher"? You may want to visit this website http://www.timeanddate.com/
I have eight high definition sources running through my home for less than the price of a top shelf 8x8 HDMI switcher which would require audio extraction and full EDID support along with a requirement for non-blanking switching. I certainly make no apologies for the $100 I spent on a professional 8x8 component video matrix switcher.

My preference would be for the HDMI switcher, have no doubt, but at $10,000+ for a non-blanking quality unit, you have my budget confused with someone elses.

If you have a recommendation for one which meets the critetia of at least a 8x8 HDMI switcher, non-blanking switching, full edid management, and audio extraction with DSP, for a reasonable price (under $5,000 let's say), then please let me know.

Otherwise, I'm very happy with my setup right now which gives me 600+ movies, two cable tuners, Blu-ray, and gaming all in HD without a single hiccup.

I also have several legacy clients who had component video installed 7+ years ago who have no interest in upgrading yet unless it gives them the same reliability they have enjoyed for the last half decade plus for a reasonable price.

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post #155 of 160 Old 09-27-2013, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post

I have eight high definition sources running through my home for less than the price of a top shelf 8x8 HDMI switcher which would require audio extraction and full EDID support along with a requirement for non-blanking switching. I certainly make no apologies for the $100 I spent on a professional 8x8 component video matrix switcher.

My preference would be for the HDMI switcher, have no doubt, but at $10,000+ for a non-blanking quality unit, you have my budget confused with someone elses.

If you have a recommendation for one which meets the critetia of at least a 8x8 HDMI switcher, non-blanking switching, full edid management, and audio extraction with DSP, for a reasonable price (under $5,000 let's say), then please let me know.

Otherwise, I'm very happy with my setup right now which gives me 600+ movies, two cable tuners, Blu-ray, and gaming all in HD without a single hiccup.

I also have several legacy clients who had component video installed 7+ years ago who have no interest in upgrading yet unless it gives them the same reliability they have enjoyed for the last half decade plus for a reasonable price.
I believe you may have missed his point. He wasn't directing his comment at whatever you own, which until your post above wasn't even known. His tongue in cheek comment was directed at:
Quote:
It is shameful that more installers don't take little steps which can save their clients thousands of dollars by knowing which products have a 20+ year lifespan and implementing those solutions.

A new component video switcher (8x8) is about $1,500+ from Key Digital.
A used Extron Crosspoint switcher (8x8) from eBay is about $100.

One might argue that it's shameful to be selling component video switching solutions in 2013. Then again, if you're business model is sourcing used equipment off ebay, you're probably limited in what you can offer. Personally I don't think any of it is shameful, not someone else daring to sell a new Key Digital switcher, and not you selling a used Extron switcher off ebay. They are both 100% legitimate offerings, even though personally I would not offer either of those solutions in the year 2013.

Anyhow, the crux of my disagreement is that it always seem strange to me when people have a mindset that not trying to sell someone the cheapest option possible is wrong or shameful. Economically it always makes a lot more sense to buy a used car, but it's not shameful that there are dealers selling new ones, to people who are looking for new ones.
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post #156 of 160 Old 09-27-2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by David Haddad View Post

I believe you may have missed his point. He wasn't directing his comment at whatever you own, which until your post above wasn't even known. His tongue in cheek comment was directed at:
One might argue that it's shameful to be selling component video switching solutions in 2013. Then again, if you're business model is sourcing used equipment off ebay, you're probably limited in what you can offer. Personally I don't think any of it is shameful, not someone else daring to sell a new Key Digital switcher, and not you selling a used Extron switcher off ebay. They are both 100% legitimate offerings, even though personally I would not offer either of those solutions in the year 2013.
Good HDMI matrixing in a distribution system tends to run about $10,000 more than a top shelf component video distribution system. People are so hung up on HDMI, that they often think that it is wrong to use a proven solution. I get the desire to everyone to use HDMI, but people will go with poorly implemented solution for HDMI over using far better component video solutions just because that's the buzzword. They do it, not because they know better, they do it because they are sold it by the same people that don't get that 2.35 front projection is amazing, when properly done, but the poor mans 'zoom' method costs lumens, resolution, and is rarely the right choice. People just don't know, and most installers just don't know either.
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Originally Posted by David Haddad View Post

Anyhow, the crux of my disagreement is that it always seem strange to me when people have a mindset that not trying to sell someone the cheapest option possible is wrong or shameful. Economically it always makes a lot more sense to buy a used car, but it's not shameful that there are dealers selling new ones, to people who are looking for new ones.
I don't think it's wrong that people sell new stuff. I sell new stuff all the time and it makes a ton of sense. I just also have spent a ton of time researching used products that tend to last for years when properly installed and maintained. Not sure how many dealers care to go this route over just making the sale and taking the money. Perhaps shameful is to strong of a word, but certainly it seems that most clients I meet want to save money and this really is a way that they can do so without impacting system performance in the short, or the long run.

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post #157 of 160 Old 09-29-2013, 12:09 PM
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A lot of my devices don't have component ports. I put in a 4x4 HDMI matrix for <$400. An 8x8 HDMI matrix can be had for $1500. An 8x8 HDBaseT matrix can be had for $3k. Not top of the line, but acceptable.
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post #158 of 160 Old 09-30-2013, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by az1324 View Post

A lot of my devices don't have component ports. I put in a 4x4 HDMI matrix for <$400. An 8x8 HDMI matrix can be had for $1500. An 8x8 HDBaseT matrix can be had for $3k. Not top of the line, but acceptable.
As long as you are okay with stereo, this is true.

The problem is that EDID will force everything to stereo if there is a stereo sink at one end of the system. This impacts any full HDMI system without proper EDID management. Works great in a stereo-only setup, which will exclude almost all high-end home A/V systems. There are (finally) some audio extractors which are supposed to emulate EDID and force the highest level audio settings regardless of the sinks at the end, which is a good thing, but will kill audio to any TV which needs internal speakers. Probably cheaper to add 'better' speakers than to use the speakers in the TV.

Then you get into blanking issues as related to HDCP where when a shared source is routed to any room. The cheap HDMI switchers, that I have seen, including Aurora, Gefen, and Atlona blank all connected displays as HDCP is renegotiated across all the outputs.

Does it work? Yes! It certainly does work. But, for $1,500 on the cheapest end, it works significantly worse than a $100 component video switcher does right now.

Don't get me wrong, HDMI is inevitable, but I am hopeful that for $2,000 we get a HDMI solution that has proper EDID management, does stereo audio extraction, and performs non-blanking switching without HDCP renegotiation. I have used cheap HDMI solutions, but they feel, in every manner, cheap.

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post #159 of 160 Old 09-30-2013, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post

The problem is that EDID will force everything to stereo if there is a stereo sink at one end of the system.

Apologies for the hijack, but is this why my 5.1 receiver plays only 2.1 audio when the signal comes through my Monoprice 4x4 HDMI matrix? The two other outputs on the matrix run straight into TVs. Any suggestions to work around that?
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post #160 of 160 Old 10-01-2013, 11:41 AM
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If your TVs are using their internal speakers, then there is no solution to this with any of the cheap HDMI matrix switchers out there.

If your TVs are supported by in-wall or in-ceiling stereo speakers, then you can send the analog audio from the sources to your audio distribution system separately, or you can extract a 2-channel downmix of the audio using Monoprice audio de-embedders. The MP units allow for HD audio to be passed on to HD decoders while giving a stereo downmix from analog connections to a distributed audio system.

This is why 'cheap' HDMI and even 'mid-priced' HDMI matrix switching solutions really don't work for almost anyone. Only top tier solutions can address some of these issues.

You also likely have blanking as different displays are turned on/off and new sources are turned on/off within the system.

I have the MP 4x4 HDMI matrix and pulled it out in favor of component video to my home displays and HDMI to just a couple of displays. Eventually I will implement a Crestron DM solution which properly handles every single issue which I have addressed. I'm not sure if they will perform a stereo downmix on the fly on their output cards, but they will inject stereo audio if I needed it at any of my displays (I don't). Extron and AMX have similar solutions that truly work. Oh, and non-blanking switching that occurs in about a second instead of 5-10 seconds or more.

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