Official Samsung LNxxA650 Owner's Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

Yes 178 degrees. But remember, LCD manufacturers live in an alternate universe. These numbers don't apply in our own:





These kind of shenanigans taint just about every LCD spec (response time, contrast ratio ect)

Samsung presented a paper in 2006 on their latest S-PVA LCD technology that was being developed for mass manufacturing. They were able to show a static contrast ratio of 2,300, based on a combination of new technologies. Here is the figure showing contrast ratio as a function of viewing angle:

Note that contrast ratio drops by about 50% when the angle is 20 degrees off axis. This is still a big weakness in LCD's. The 2nd jpeg shows the title of the paper.
LL
LL

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post #632 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 08:44 PM
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Returned my 40" 71F around 6 today and bout the 650 and i have to say you can see that the contrast is higher and a little sharper, overal i just like the cosmetics and dimensions.

One gripe is that I thought the Crimson red surounding the tv was a light but am i mistaken?
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post #633 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 08:56 PM
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You are mistaken. Not a light; part of the plastic bezel. If it were a light, it might be cool, because then you'd have the option of blue, black, red, etc. instead of their planned launch of different colored models.
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post #634 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

I wouldn't rely on either response time measurement. Since there is no set standard it's kind of pointless.

The new MPRT (Motion Picture Response Time) really needs to be adopted imo. because it includes all grey transitions (not just the best ones), and accounts for sample-and-hold and human contrast sensitivities. It's a huge step closer to reality but I've only seen 2 companies using it in their specs so far (NEC & Philips i believe). Look for specs stating "Percieved Blurred Edge Width" or;

P-BEW - percieved blurred edge width (in pixels)
P-BET - percieved blurred edge time (in milliseconds)

It won't help much right now because there's nothing to compare these numbers to at the moment.
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post #635 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvs053063 View Post

You are mistaken. Not a light; part of the plastic bezel. If it were a light, it might be cool, because then you'd have the option of blue, black, red, etc. instead of their planned launch of different colored models.

Just out of curiousity, where did you guys get the info that there is going to be different colored models? Was that at CES?
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post #636 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

Especially if you plan on connecting to a PC, it's not worth the extra dough. The extra processing is due to the increased load put upon it due to the networking capabilities.

Mabye i dont understand this but if the networking capabilities arnt being used, wouldnt the 16bit vs 12 bit processor only help matters. I dont understand why you think this will not make any difference in PQ when the networking mumbo jumbo is off. What would Vp be doing running at lower than full speed. I really dont get this. Either way i would like to understand what you are thinking but it just dosnt seem to make sence to me given what i know of processors. It looks like if the networking stuff is off the inputs go to a 16bit processor not a 12bit one which should help PQ. ????
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post #637 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clau View Post

Samsung presented a paper in 2006 on their latest S-PVA LCD technology that was being developed for mass manufacturing. They were able to show a static contrast ratio of 2,300, based on a combination of new technologies. Here is the figure showing contrast ratio as a function of viewing angle:

Note that contrast ratio drops by about 50% when the angle is 20 degrees off axis. This is still a big weakness in LCD's. The 2nd jpeg shows the title of the paper.

This is why i'm not married and have kids. I want that sweetspot for myself.......i'm a greedy bastard.
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post #638 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 09:28 PM
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I am watching an old black and white hockey game from 1971 with AMP on high, talk about creepy looking, lmao.

Mosh~~
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post #639 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready2Mosh View Post

I am watching an old black and white hockey game from 1971 with AMP on high, talk about creepy looking, lmao.

Mosh~~

lol i bet.
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post #640 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manaburn View Post

Mabye i dont understand this but if the networking capabilities arnt being used, wouldnt the 16bit vs 12 bit processor only help matters. I dont understand why you think this will not make any difference in PQ when the networking mumbo jumbo is off. What would Vp be doing running at lower than full speed. I really dont get this. Either way i would like to understand what you are thinking but it just dosnt seem to make sence to me given what i know of processors. It looks like if the networking stuff is off the inputs go to a 16bit processor not a 12bit one which should help PQ. ????

Manaburn, what i'm saying is the 750 isn't an upgrade compared to the 650 series as far as PQ, picture settings, etc. The 750 series isn't a Pioneer Elite and the 650 series the 10 series, or the 750 series isn't an XBR and the 650 a Sony W3000. The Elites and XBR's of the world are marketed as top of the line displays because of their engines relative to the models just below them. The 650's and 750's have been clearly designated since CES as the high end sets, with the 540's a step below (no 120hz as an example). What Samsung did was seperate the 2 high end sets with some networking capabilities since these sets will be the focal point of a home theater. There is also a couple of minor tweaks to woofers, USB etc. Samsung has never stated that the 750's had a superior engine over the 650's and it's reflected in the MSRP's. It's primarily cosmetic and connectability, for the consumer who wants the 650 series but with a little more options.
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post #641 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 09:54 PM
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Not sure if I'm allowed to ask this, but does anyone have experience with ordering from Amazon?

The LN40A650 is not currently in stock from them, but it says I can order it now and they'll alert me when its available. Does that mean I would get the purchase price from them (currently 20% off) or would they be able to change it on me? And does anyone have experience with their return policy on HDTVs. Thanks.
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post #642 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 09:57 PM
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^^^^ You can get them elsewhere from reliable sources

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portknocks View Post

Returned my 40" 71F around 6 today and bout the 650 and i have to say you can see that the contrast is higher and a little sharper, overal i just like the cosmetics and dimensions.


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post #643 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clau View Post

Here is the figure showing contrast ratio as a function of viewing angle:

Thanks, and here are some graphic examples:

All these LCDs have between 2ms - 8ms response times. Well below the 16ms required to keep up with a 60hz refresh rate - or do they:






My LCD and 4-yr old CRT both have around 178 degree viewing angles ...or do they.







Color gamut is one area I know of where LCD can shine. But in general, if it walks and quacks like a duck it's a duck. Forget numbers.
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post #644 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 11:45 PM
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Borf you are the enemy of fun.

These entertainment modes are sounding really interesting, I cant wait to test them out. Do any of you guys use the movie mode for BR? Any opinions? To dark as others say?
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post #645 of 23513 Old 03-18-2008, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoNg420 View Post

I think I have what you are calling "flashlights"

Should I return or give it a few days to see if it clears up. Its pretty noticable when the picture is dark. Man I hate my luck. This is my 6th TV im on.

3 Sharp 52d64u
2 Samsung Lnt5271
1 Samsung 52a650


Since you had 2 Samsung Lnt5271, how does your new set compare to them?
I'm really interested in which you think had the deeper blacks & color.

FYI on clouds, your only options are:

-Tape/tie one of those PC fans on the back of the TV, where the vents are, this will probably reduce some of it.
-Slightly unscrew the panel to relieve some of the stress that might be causing the clouds.
-Massage the clouds into one specific spot.
-or of course lower the backlight.

Clouds will not go away, they might shift over time.
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post #646 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 12:12 AM
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Wow Borf, the VX922 looks like a champion. Where do you get these tests from?


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I see @ 1080p
I'm BROKE!
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post #647 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynn View Post

Wow Borf, the VX922 looks like a champion. Where do you get these tests from?

Yeah the VX922 became Tomshardware's comparison standard a while back but I think has since been surpassed. Sorry, this is the correct link:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/panel_co...s_choice_2.htm

Here's some "happy stuff" now after being so negative: Everyone knows big things are happening on the LCD front (just like other displays). Being aware of them, I'm really excited at what's comming down the pike - but don't feel the need to put my (or anyone's) display on a pedestal as the be-all end-all of things. Improvements are good imo and the more that manufacturers are called out on these things the more incentive there is for improvement. And besides I would think one wants to know what's available for 3+ grand.
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post #648 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

My LCD and 4-yr old CRT both have around 178 degree viewing angles ...or do they.





Color gamut is one area I know of where LCD can shine. But in general, if it walks and quacks like a duck it's a duck. Forget numbers.

Your LCD has a very bad viewing angle. Both the 71 and 650 viewing angle is almost as good as that CRT and that is by actual observation and not by "numbers". But I do see your point of mfg exagerations.

...
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post #649 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metal83 View Post

Just out of curiousity, where did you guys get the info that there is going to be different colored models? Was that at CES?

Yes at CES. They had all the different colors on display except the black which they are undecided if it will be released. Expect the other colors to roll out as early as May/June.

...
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post #650 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:41 AM
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I remember the ces pictures but i remember any pictures of the other colors. Was any taken?
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post #651 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzbass View Post

Got a 52A650 tonight at HH Gregg at an incredible deal, MUCH better than they have on their site. This is a fantastic TV. HD looks very nice. I guess I will have to get a Bluray player now. I can't believe the talk about the red bezel. I think it looks great but it is very easy to miss, it's very subdued, classy. Has anyone posted some settings yet that I may have looked over?

Which HH Gregg? The last time I checked at the store near me they were clueless as to when they'd be getting them. I was even going to say they aren't even on their website yet, but I see as of this morning they are now. I'm still trying to find some place in the Cincy area that has one on display.

If you don't mind, PM the price as we can only post retail (don't want the thread to be locked).
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post #652 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Since you had 2 Samsung Lnt5271, how does your new set compare to them?
I'm really interested in which you think had the deeper blacks & color.

FYI on clouds, your only options are:

-Tape/tie one of those PC fans on the back of the TV, where the vents are, this will probably reduce some of it.
-Slightly unscrew the panel to relieve some of the stress that might be causing the clouds.
-Massage the clouds into one specific spot.
-or of course lower the backlight.

Clouds will not go away, they might shift over time.

I think the picture is as good or better then the 71f with the entertainment modes I see no problems. I tried to calibrate the tv with similar settings to my 71, the picture looked good, but i would experience shaking words or TCE/TBE without using the entertainment modes. I dont mind the entertainment modes to much, I do think the gaming mode is a little bright. Thats about it.

The tv would almost be perfect if I didnt have the ****ing clouds.

Finally got a good TV, my 9th TV. LN52A650 was exchanged by Samsung for free for a LN52A750! No problems as of now.
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post #653 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenEarDrum View Post

Your LCD has a very bad viewing angle. Both the 71 and 650 viewing angle is almost as good as that CRT

Actually GoldenEarDrum that is a 71 (69 to be exact - I don't think the matt screen affects viewing angles - but would it matter?). As I am looking at it right now, the pictures don't exaggerate. Vertical off-axis pics showed the same result. It's not a big problem for me, but might be for others. Viewing angles should improve with Optically Compensated Bend (OCB) panels which do exist presently but are not being manufactured - go figure.
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post #654 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

Manaburn, what i'm saying is the 750 isn't an upgrade compared to the 650 series as far as PQ, picture settings, etc. The 750 series isn't a Pioneer Elite and the 650 series the 10 series, or the 750 series isn't an XBR and the 650 a Sony W3000. The Elites and XBR's of the world are marketed as top of the line displays because of their engines relative to the models just below them. The 650's and 750's have been clearly designated since CES as the high end sets, with the 540's a step below (no 120hz as an example). What Samsung did was seperate the 2 high end sets with some networking capabilities since these sets will be the focal point of a home theater. There is also a couple of minor tweaks to woofers, USB etc. Samsung has never stated that the 750's had a superior engine over the 650's and it's reflected in the MSRP's. It's primarily cosmetic and connectability, for the consumer who wants the 650 series but with a little more options.

Yes i see what you are saying and it makes logical sense. But it also makes sense that the same feed processed by a faster processor will produce less lag errors, and possibly allow amp to work rite on non-entertainment modes. I really wish Mikl1984 would chime in on this one. Honestly if this is not the case then i may just go buy me one of those box sets of 5 speakers for compact spaces and call it good. Its looking more and more like the 750 has the same type of design as the 650, except it is square. I do like the square better but im not sure the bezel is worth a trip to BB if I can just buy a compact speaker set better than both TVs audio. I do keep going back and forth on this one I know so bare with me please. And i think there is somthing to be said that my TV has no clouding and no flashlights that i can see or any other imperfections. Grrrr i just dont know what to do. All i want is the best LCD out for motion handeling, maybe i have it sitting in my room already lol. I supose there is also a slight posibility that the networking mumbo jumbo would add more things to go wrong in the circutry as well (highly unlikely but still). I have no use for the networking stuff either, I too have an Xbox 360 Elite.
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post #655 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowballj View Post

picked up my 650 about 3 hours ago.

next I watched some HD hockey and with amp on high and entertainment mode on sports. it's gorgeous. i didnt once notice TBE on the puck. feels like you're at the game.
next played some ps3 on it (nhl 2008). AMP on high, entertainment mode game. looked very impressive. noticed no lag, no artifacts, no TBE. basically flawless.

Finally, someone that commented on watching hockey. I'm glad to hear the 650 performs well given all I ever use a tv for is hockey and 360.

Mihalis
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post #656 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manaburn View Post

Honestly if this is not the case then i may just go buy me one of those box sets of 5 speakers for compact spaces and call it good. Its looking more and more like the 750 has the same type of design as the 650, except it is square. I do like the square better but im not sure the bezel is worth a trip to BB if I can just buy a compact speaker set better than both TVs audio.

I have no use for the networking stuff either, I too have an Xbox 360 Elite.

Now you're getting it. IMO you're better off keeping the 650 and spending the difference or the difference + a little cash and have a better overall home theater experience.

My rents have an amazing HK sound system wired through their living room and I have to say that it adds a lot to the movie watching experience.

I'm one of those people that feel that LCDs shouldn't bother coming with speakers at all and when I get a tv for my place the second stop will be to get a sound system in place to go with it.

If you don't have a need for the networking, and the new bezel isn't that much better in your opinion, then stick with the 650 that you know works well and go for sound.

Besides, the 360 does do a very good job acting as a media bridge in the event you change your mind.

Just my $0.02, take it for what it is.

Mihalis
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post #657 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n1ghtpr0w1er View Post

To others who already have the 650, is it just me or does this set have a ridiculously wide viewing angle? I can virtually view the set when I am almost parallel to it.

I thought the same thing about the 71 and 81 series sets and some reviewers said they had poor viewing angles, so what do I know, lol. I will say that the set looks ever so slightly duller when you are higher than it, such as standing in front of it, but it is not bad by any means.
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post #658 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manaburn View Post

Yes i see what you are saying and it makes logical sense. But it also makes sense that the same feed processed by a faster processor will produce less lag errors, and possibly allow amp to work rite on non-entertainment modes. I really wish Mikl1984 would chime in on this one. Honestly if this is not the case then i may just go buy me one of those box sets of 5 speakers for compact spaces and call it good. Its looking more and more like the 750 has the same type of design as the 650, except it is square. I do like the square better but im not sure the bezel is worth a trip to BB if I can just buy a compact speaker set better than both TVs audio. I do keep going back and forth on this one I know so bare with me please. And i think there is somthing to be said that my TV has no clouding and no flashlights that i can see or any other imperfections. Grrrr i just dont know what to do. All i want is the best LCD out for motion handeling, maybe i have it sitting in my room already lol. I supose there is also a slight posibility that the networking mumbo jumbo would add more things to go wrong in the circutry as well (highly unlikely but still). I have no use for the networking stuff either, I too have an Xbox 360 Elite.

Just because the 750 may have a different processor doesn't mean that it will be better than the 650. It may have different problems unique only to the 750 series. So you may jump out of the frying pan and into the fire with the 750. I'm not trying to diss the 750, because I would have bought the 750 for $300 more if it was available.

I haven't noticed the slightest bit of motion artifacting with my 650, and that is on any setting that I have thrown at it. That could change, but I am very happy with the 650 at this point. I, like you, wanted a set with no motion artifacts that would be good with gaming. I play a lot of racing games and if the picture gets blurry, you crash, plain and simple.

Besides, you can put together a home theater system for less than $400.00 that you would not believe. If you already have a home theater receiver, I can recommend a 5 speaker set with a powered subwoofer for less than $200.00 that is amazing at this price. (I have this speaker set) Adding surround sound to your TV experience makes a HUGE difference.
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post #659 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 07:30 AM
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Ok well i think im just going to buy a nice $500 set of compact speakers to use with my 650 instead of bumping up to the 750 (unless someone can provide undisputable evidence that the 750 processor will make a difference in PQ). I haven’t looked at audio systems for 10 years. If i am using HDMI to the TV how do i grab audio from it? Does the HDMI go to a reciever that then goes to the TV stripping off the audio to go to the speakers. I am hoping these 5.1 speakers sets are wireless at least the back speakers. The sony bravia ones look nice and in my price range, but i only looked at BBs site for around 3 min lol. Also can anyone suggest a compact audio set in the 300-600 range that is nice. Compact being the key word. This is probubly a topic for another forum but im lazy rite now. So assuming the PQ is the same the bezel and the trouble of taking the TV back and waiting for a new one isnt worth $300 to me lol.

I have no reciever FYI
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post #660 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by n1ghtpr0w1er View Post

Just because the 750 may have a different processor doesn't mean that it will be better than the 650. It may have different problems unique only to the 750 series. So you may jump out of the frying pan and into the fire with the 750. I'm not trying to diss the 750, because I would have bought the 750 for $300 more if it was available.

I haven't noticed the slightest bit of motion artifacting with my 650, and that is on any setting that I have thrown at it. That could change, but I am very happy with the 650 at this point. I, like you, wanted a set with no motion artifacts that would be good with gaming. I play a lot of racing games and if the picture gets blurry, you crash, plain and simple.

Besides, you can put together a home theater system for less than $400.00 that you would not believe. If you already have a home theater receiver, I can recommend a 5 speaker set with a powered subwoofer for less than $200.00 that is amazing at this price. (I have this speaker set) Adding surround sound to your TV experience makes a HUGE difference.


And can you explain why the faster processor does not mean it will have better motion handling. Everyone keeps shooting down my thoughts about the faster processor without explaining at all why they believe the processor will make no difference. Do you guys actually have experience with such things or are you talking out of you're a$% about this like me. With out an explanation of why you think the processor won't make a difference I am forced to assume that everyone is wildly speculating as I am. I honestly don't know if it would make a difference, it seems to follow and be logical though. The only person on this forum that really seems to know what they are talking about is Mikl1984 who said that the 750 is a much better machine, however did not specify whether the 750s processor would really help the motion handling or not. In any event it would seem that the increase in processing power would also give Samsung more room to grow with respect to firmware. If you have a technical background, don't dumb it down just explain
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