Official Samsung LNxxA650 Owner's Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mark_1080p View Post

Yep, that looks like really cool stuff, hopefully coming soon from Sammy.
If they put a CableCARD in it, I'll buy it.

Hey Mark, still waiting for those non-banding gray screen pics from Sharp owners?
Those specs look off the map. The only thing i'm wondering is the location of the LED grids. I'm sure Samsung learned from the 81 series. It appears the 650 series still has the TBE/vapors in non entertainment mode. We all know what "entertainment" mode means.
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post #722 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 01:41 PM
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My current TV is doing the power turning off and back on again (it's a Westinghouse 42" LCD monitor), which is why we are upgrading to the LN52A650. For our current TV, it was related to an HDMI HDCP handshake issue that is known as a problem with Westinghouse TVs. I wonder if HDCP could be responsible here as well?
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post #723 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mikki42 View Post

My current TV is doing the power turning off and back on again (it's a Westinghouse 42" LCD monitor), which is why we are upgrading to the LN52A650. For our current TV, it was related to an HDMI HDCP handshake issue that is known as a problem with Westinghouse TVs. I wonder if HDCP could be responsible here as well?

Does an HDMI handshake issue make a TV lose the video or completely turn off? I heard a distinctive "click" that was an indication the power went completely off. I was using HDMI though.
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post #724 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by n1ghtpr0w1er View Post

Does an HDMI handshake issue make a TV lose the video or completely turn off? I heard a distinctive "click" that was an indication the power went completely off. I was using HDMI though.


Click off, click on, same for me, and I'm not using HDMI at all.
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post #725 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by fenix31 View Post

for you people having your set turn on and off are you plugging the tv directly to the wall or using a surge protector?

surge protector. Everything else stays on just the TV turns off.
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post #726 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by fenix31 View Post

maybe the tv is not getting enough air flow and then gets to hot and shuts down, kinda like a computer does im just hoping this isnt in all of them because i was thinking about buying one this weekend

Even if it is would it really be a deal breaker. I have used mine for lets say 40 hours so far with one 6 second annoyance. Not really a big deal IMO just one of this sets quirks I guess.
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post #727 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Manaburn View Post

Even if it is would it really be a deal breaker. I have used mine for lets say 40 hours so far with one 6 second annoyance. Not really a big deal IMO just one of this sets quirks I guess.

I don't know, if I had a bunch of people over to see my new TV and it kept on turning off and on I wouldn't be very happy.
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post #728 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 01:59 PM
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Even if it is would it really be a deal breaker. I have used mine for lets say 40 hours so far with one 6 second annoyance. Not really a big deal IMO just one of this sets quirks I guess.

true just hope its not part of a bigger problem
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post #729 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

Hey Mark, still waiting for those non-banding gray screen pics from Sharp owners?
Those specs look off the map. The only thing i'm wondering is the location of the LED grids. I'm sure Samsung learned from the 81 series. It appears the 650 series still has the TBE/vapors in non entertainment mode. We all know what "entertainment" mode means.

Hey, Lipcrkr, yep, I'm still giving them Hell for claiming their sets are band-free without proof. The responses I get are either none or "Get a Life, why should I have to prove anything". I guess they are just sore at the fact that they have it and are in that long African river .
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post #730 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Manaburn View Post

You are dead wrong with respect to amp and game mode. Slap on a blu-ray wile the TV is set to game mode and tell me its not on and runny full speed ahead. And as far as mass effect, its probubly the best game i have played in a few years or so. That being said it is a technical mess to begin with. Please do testing on a game that dosnt have an insane amount of issues to begin with. I cant even play mass effect on my HDTV cause it just looks soooooo bad.

I am certain that my TV Game mode is not using AMP, I have tested it with multiple games (Mass Effect, Rainbow Six Vegas, COD4, Bioshock, etc.) Mass Effect was easy to see because of the blurring script. If you own Mass Effect, test it out, it's easy. Go to the Galaxy Map and Zoom out as far as you can to see planet names (Noveria, etc) and move the cursor only left and right across the horizontal axis, change AMP on all different settings while in game mode, then turn game mode off with AMP on medium atleast, you can really see a difference. The 71 series claimed AMP was on as well when in Game Mode but it wasn't. Although adjustable, AMP is DEFINITELY disabled on my TV during game mode, but not Sports or Cinema entertainment modes. I'm sure this why there is not TCE/TBE when in Game mode, but while in Sports, Cinema entertainment modes and regular picture settings there is.
Can anyone else test this? If by some small chance AMP off while in Game mode is specific to my 52A650 then this a pretty big defect.
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post #731 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by n1ghtpr0w1er View Post

I don't know, if I had a bunch of people over to see my new TV and it kept on turning off and on I wouldn't be very happy.

Well yea even if I didn’t have a bunch of people over and it kept turning off and on it would be a big problem IMO. I was only commenting on mine and others on this treads experience which is that it happens very infrequently. Once a week just isn’t going to upset me that much. If it was happening as much as once a night it probably would annoy me too much and i would return it. This also could just be something that happens for the first ??? hours you have the tv. I think there are to many unknowns to really evaluate this issue rite now. I think we are just going to have to wait and see how big an issue this is. I am keeping track though so i will report in a month or so and get back with everyone. I probably use my TV more than most people so I should have a good idea at the end of a month how severe this problem is.

One accordance in 5 days of heavy use so far
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post #732 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Manaburn View Post

Well yea even if I didn't have a bunch of people over and it kept turning off and on it would be a big problem IMO. I was only commenting on mine and others on this treads experience which is that it happens very infrequently. Once a week just isn't going to upset me that much. If it was happening as much as once a night it probably would annoy me too much and i would return it. This also could just be something that happens for the first ??? hours you have the tv. I think there are to many unknowns to really evaluate this issue rite now. I think we are just going to have to wait and see how big an issue this is. I am keeping track though so i will report in a month or so and get back with everyone. I probably use my TV more than most people so I should have a good idea at the end of a month how severe this problem is.

One accordance in 5 days of heavy use so far

Mine turned off and back on again for the fourth time in two days, twice today within a 2 hour period. The TV has been on all day today, but the TV doesn't feel hot at all.
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post #733 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready2Mosh View Post

When your talking triple anything you'll have a front frame a middle (actual frame) and a behind frame, thats the 3 frames you see. When spinning in a circle the frame in the front in the direction I'm turning is the one I see, the middle frame obviously because thats the real frame and then the trailing frame.

Maybe thats a little better explanation of what TCE is for me anyways, or appears that way.

Mosh~~

Ok thanks I understand what you mean now. I don't think one frame (front or back) is more prominent than the other on COD4 for me, both are very slight, especially when compared to my returned 5271.
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post #734 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitmonk View Post

I am certain that my TV Game mode is not using AMP, I have tested it with multiple games (Mass Effect, Rainbow Six Vegas, COD4, Bioshock, etc.) Mass Effect was easy to see because of the blurring script. If you own Mass Effect, test it out, it's easy. Go to the Galaxy Map and Zoom out as far as you can to see planet names (Noveria, etc) and move the cursor only left and right across the horizontal axis, change AMP on all different settings while in game mode, then turn game mode off with AMP on medium atleast, you can really see a difference. The 71 series claimed AMP was on as well when in Game Mode but it wasn't. Although adjustable, AMP is DEFINITELY disabled on my TV during game mode, but not Sports or Cinema entertainment modes. I'm sure this why there is not TCE/TBE when in Game mode, but while in Sports, Cinema entertainment modes and regular picture settings there is.
Can anyone else test this? If by some small chance AMP off while in Game mode is specific to my 52A650 then this a pretty big defect.

I will test this tonight. I am at work rite now. I let a friend borrow mass effect but i will do some tests on other games and see what i cant make out. I still think you are wrong but i will test to make sure. IF you are rite im going to be way pissed as well but we shall see. Also the amp doesn't seem to be as pronounced on games because it only doubles the frames. On a blu-ray only 20% of the frames are from the disk 80% are created by the AMP. So compared to the 50% 50% resulting from the game this would be a big difference. But like i said im defiantly going to dig into this issue deeper before i totally discredit it.
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post #735 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by n1ghtpr0w1er View Post

Mine turned off and back on again for the fourth time in two days, twice today within a 2 hour period. The TV has been on all day today, but the TV doesn't feel hot at all.

Eeek, if mine does it that much I'm going to take my chances with the 750 for sure. That is just unacceptable.
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post #736 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by fenix31 View Post

there goes that theory. maybe

The first 650 I had powered off after 10min of use and would not come back on. It would just click like it was trying. I returned it and the 650 I have now has shut off by itself once. I have it pluged into a Monster power center.

Also, I did have flashlights on the new set. I cleaned the screen, applying light presure. Then loosening the screws to my wall mount on the back of the 650. Turned on the TV and no flashlights??? I will have to view more to make sure this was just not a fluke...
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post #737 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:44 PM
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Hate to say this (especially since I'm getting one), but the 650 is sounding more and more like a lemon. Not only is there several reports of flashlights/clouding but a TV randomly powering off is not really acceptable IMO. At first I thought someone just got a defective set but now there's like 6 or 7 different users saying they are experiencing the same problems.

I sure hope that this is something Samsung can/will fix with a firmware update. I'm getting tired of returning TV's....
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post #738 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:45 PM
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i had a question fellas...

i currently have a ln4671 series...and i have the opportunity to upgrade to the ln46A650 for $150...

my question is the 46a650 much better then the 71 series?

i havent had any problems with the 71 series but mine was manufactured in feb 08...
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post #739 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:51 PM
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Well, given all of the quirks with LCD technology, I think I'm going to sit on the sidelines for one more year and just be happy with my 4 year old DLP that doesn't turn itself off, doesn't cloud or smear, no flashlights, doesn't TBE, don't have to worry about which AMP setting when; for $4 grand I expect a defect free TV that handles everything that I can throw at it and I guess the technology just isn't there yet. Too bad. Maybe CES 2009 will unveil a TV that will really empty my wallet. I know the PQ of my set won't be what you all are enjoying, but if you don't realize what you don't have, then you don't know what you're missing. Plus, my DLP really does have a decent picture, but I'll need to change my netflix to standard DVDs again as BD doesn't make a difference with my current equipment and just adds to my wait time. Good luck with your sets everyone! Seriously, enjoy the PQ. I'll catch up with you next year.

Rick
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post #740 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manaburn View Post

I will test this tonight. I am at work rite now. I let a friend borrow mass effect but i will do some tests on other games and see what i cant make out. I still think you are wrong but i will test to make sure. IF you are rite im going to be way pissed as well but we shall see. Also the amp doesn't seem to be as pronounced on games because it only doubles the frames. On a blu-ray only 20% of the frames are from the disk 80% are created by the AMP. So compared to the 50% 50% resulting from the game this would be a big difference. But like i said im defiantly going to dig into this issue deeper before i totally discredit it.

Good please do, like I said my set defintely disables AMP in Game mode. I just watched the beginning scene of The Departed on HD DVD and the rolling credits (as the one poster suggested) of Batman Begins on HD DVD and AMP is without doubt turned off in Game mode.

Also, as irony would have it, my TV turned on and off by itself while I was doing this
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post #741 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SeanM5 View Post

Hate to say this (especially since I'm getting one), but the 650 is sounding more and more like a lemon. Not only is there several reports of flashlights/clouding but a TV randomly powering off is not really acceptable IMO. At first I thought someone just got a defective set but now there's like 6 or 7 different users saying they are experiencing the same problems.

I sure hope that this is something Samsung can/will fix with a firmware update. I'm getting tired of returning TV's....

I'm still holding out hope that it will either go away or it turns out to be something else. It could be interference from a cordless phone, microwave, or anything. Fortunately, the place I bought it from has a ridiculously generous 10 day return policy
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post #742 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 03:04 PM
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bah, i guess its time to decide on xbr6/z series or find a non 120hz tv


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post #743 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 03:06 PM
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I am trying to find any documentation that states there is a limit to how many TV sets can be exchanged within your 30 day period at BB. I am on my 5th set exchanged from Bestbuy.

1. 40" xbr
2. 46" xbr wanted bigger
3. 50" Panasonic Plasma - hated the xbr smearing, etc. was told to try Plasma.
4. 5271 - Plasma too heavy for moving and too dark, also did not want to worry about burn-in.
5. 650 - My local store got them in, and it was my last day to exchange so I did because of the issues with the 71.

I was told by the manager when I exchanged my 5271 for the 52-650 that this is the last one he would exchange because he was loosing money. Whatever... I gave him my 2 cents worth and left. Can a BB manager deny a exchange because you have exchanged too many??
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post #744 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 03:13 PM
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ksm not sure if they can there is no policy that i know of but if one denys you just go to a different store
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post #745 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksm3 View Post

I am trying to find any documentation that states there is a limit to how many TV sets can be exchanged within your 30 day period at BB. I am on my 5th set exchanged from Bestbuy.

1. 40" xbr
2. 46" xbr wanted bigger
3. 50" Panasonic Plasma - hated the xbr smearing, etc. was told to try Plasma.
4. 5271 - Plasma too heavy for moving and too dark, also did not want to worry about burn-in.
5. 650 - My local store got them in, and it was my last day to exchange so I did because of the issues with the 71.

I was told by the manager when I exchanged my 5271 for the 52-650 that this is the last one he would exchange because he was loosing money. Whatever... I gave him my 2 cents worth and left. Can a BB manager deny a exchange because you have exchanged too many??

so does that mean ur tryin to exchange ur 5271 for the 650?
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post #746 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksm3 View Post

I am trying to find any documentation that states there is a limit to how many TV sets can be exchanged within your 30 day period at BB. I am on my 5th set exchanged from Bestbuy.

1. 40" xbr
2. 46" xbr wanted bigger
3. 50" Panasonic Plasma - hated the xbr smearing, etc. was told to try Plasma.
4. 5271 - Plasma too heavy for moving and too dark, also did not want to worry about burn-in.
5. 650 - My local store got them in, and it was my last day to exchange so I did because of the issues with the 71.

I was told by the manager when I exchanged my 5271 for the 52-650 that this is the last one he would exchange because he was loosing money. Whatever... I gave him my 2 cents worth and left. Can a BB manager deny a exchange because you have exchanged too many??

According to their policy you have 30 days. he could probably be a prick and find an excuse not to let you return it. I asked the a BB manager how the return policy worked, since I was gonna buy some sets and probably retunr them if I didn't like them., he said you have 30 days from the day you originally buy it. I asked him about exchanges and he said it resets on the day you do the exchange. I have taken back 3 sets so far and it does seem to work that way.

I just took back my 71f and the kid wanted to hook up a blu ray player to show me that there was in fact no tbe, vapors,ect with the set. When they try to talk me out of returning a set, i just tell them that I am within the 30 day satisfaction guarantee period...period! LOL
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post #747 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 03:21 PM
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Damn, you guys are making me rethink about this now. I'm thinking of maybe just getting a lower end set, 550Maybe and wait till they sort out all the 120hz stuff any other problems they may have with these sets. Would be interesting to see what happens with the LED sets if anything. Am I gonna get an earfull now from the wife.

I am using this set in the bedroom, so 46 inch is not really needed. I was just being greedy LOL. I hope your sets sort themselves out on their own
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post #748 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitmonk View Post

I am certain that my TV Game mode is not using AMP, I have tested it with multiple games (Mass Effect, Rainbow Six Vegas, COD4, Bioshock, etc.) Mass Effect was easy to see because of the blurring script. If you own Mass Effect, test it out, it's easy. Go to the Galaxy Map and Zoom out as far as you can to see planet names (Noveria, etc) and move the cursor only left and right across the horizontal axis, change AMP on all different settings while in game mode, then turn game mode off with AMP on medium atleast, you can really see a difference. The 71 series claimed AMP was on as well when in Game Mode but it wasn't. Although adjustable, AMP is DEFINITELY disabled on my TV during game mode, but not Sports or Cinema entertainment modes. I'm sure this why there is not TCE/TBE when in Game mode, but while in Sports, Cinema entertainment modes and regular picture settings there is.
Can anyone else test this? If by some small chance AMP off while in Game mode is specific to my 52A650 then this a pretty big defect.

I tested the AMP using Night at the Museum with AMP set on high and with the game mode on, and the "Soap Opera" effect was much less prominent than with the entertainment mode off. If I had to guess, I would say that the AMP may be working in game mode, only to a much lesser extent. It's just really hard to tell what is going on.
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post #749 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 03:55 PM
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re: "Clicking" on/off....

Believe it or not, my old 26" Sanyo CRT has been doing that the last few days. I have it connected to an SA STB from TWC (in SC). It has only done that for the last few days (though on this STB for a few weeks now), so I would be thinking about TWC on this issue before I came to too many conclusions about the new sets. Of course, coincidences do happen.

BTW: It doesn't actually power off, but does "click" and go black before clicking back on.

I have noticed something odd about the Series 5 Samsungs in the store, though. They often show "No Signal" for a few seconds while the feed is swtiching/restarting/whatever. These are the only sets in BB doing that, but you can ID them across the room when it happens. There could very well be a "signal strength" threshhold in the new circuitry. Could that cause a powerdown in the 650 series? Instant energy consumption reduction when signal is "not present"? My store does not yet have a 650 to check for that with that feed, though.
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post #750 of 23513 Old 03-19-2008, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitmonk View Post

Good please do, like I said my set defintely disables AMP in Game mode. I just watched the beginning scene of The Departed on HD DVD and the rolling credits (as the one poster suggested) of Batman Begins on HD DVD and AMP is without doubt turned off in Game mode.

Also, as irony would have it, my TV turned on and off by itself while I was doing this

I'll give a go at addressing this. First I don't own one of these TV (yet?, maybe never if the tv won't stay on), so my opinion may not be worth piss but I do a lot of image processing professionally. Second no one can claim what the software is doing or not doing unless they have the actual code. This is not to say you aren't seeing the behavior you are seeing. Your eyes work just fine but the causes you are giving to what you are seeing my not be accurate to the actual function.

This is my guess as to what is happening, again I haven't seen the code so I don't know. These interpolated frames are based off algorithms that work fine in some cases but not all cases. To have a perfect AMP you would need a specific algorithm for each element in a frame and a algorithm that knows which algorithm to apply to each curve, contrast, scene differential, ect. These tvs do not contain supercomputers programmed by supper humans. So perfect amp will not happen.

In the non-entertainment modes they seem to be using the same processes for everything in every frame. I am sure they can handle edit points and not apply a crossover frame but other than that, I doubt there is much special handling going on. The end result would be great results for some things, mostly high contrast, slow moving scenes. Anything else would look horrid and I am not sure why they would even bother to use this because the over all result would have too many artifacts.

Now if you can anticipate certain elements in the source, such as a fast moving ball, game UI, or low contrast dark areas in a movie, you can then have different algorithms at work. For example in game mode, you'll have an algorithm that can detect straight, high contrast lines such as found in text, health bars, cross hairs ect. Those elements would be ignored by your amp engine and not transposed in the intermittent frames. The down side is those elements would not be amped but wouldn't be TBE either. The same can be done in sports mode with a ball or in a movie with dark, low contrast scenes. These recognition algorithms could be optimized to work at very specific settings which would explain why you couldn't change settings in the entertainment modes.

So in the examples you gave where you have a map (I never played the game so I am guessing here) where you have a lot of text to give names to different planets and lines connecting them or other straight strong contrast elements, amp could be shut down for a large portion of the screen. For credits in a movie that is pretty much whole the screen. This doesn't mean amp doesn't work for the actual movie though.

Some things you could try if you are bored to show if this is actually going on. Play an HD version of Matrix with the green floating text or really any beginning to a movie with mixed MOVING text/normal movie action on the same frame. See if amp works for the normal action but leaves the text alone in game mode. Movie mode should behave differently and may give a TBE artifact in the text. Games in consoles should be giving at least 30fps but closer to 60 fps so you may not see much affect with amp so try hooking up a PC to the tv with a game that can slow the fps down to around 20. See if you can detect the amp effects in areas away from the UI but see if they are diminished near UI elements like the cross hair. There of course needs to be movement through the whole frame. They should gradient the effect making the regional shut down less noticeable so you may need to focus your attention at one part of the screen.

Anyways just my opinion of what is going on. BTW does it look good even if amp doesn't seem to have much of an effect in game mode? If your game is running at 60fps you shouldn't need help from the amp engine.
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