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post #1 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it worth looking for a 10 bit panel ie. sony v/w series with 24p. Or am I better off with like a samsung 550 8bit non 24p. Since neither set is 120hz, does 24p even matter? Also since really no source is 10-bit does 10-bit matter for 8 bit sources?
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post #2 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davez82 View Post

Also since really no source is 10-bit does 10-bit matter for 8 bit sources?

Not really. In theory it might if you're doing some sort of processing on the image, but in practice, it's a marketing gimmick today, as are "deep color" and xvYCC gamut.

Not to mention, the ability to process the image at 10 bits is not the same as the ability to accurately display the result (same goes for deep color, xvYCC).
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Originally Posted by davez82 View Post

Since neither set is 120hz, does 24p even matter?

Again, not really. Only if the display can't perform inverse telecine properly, and the source device can do a better job.
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post #3 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 01:31 PM
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i have no experience with the samsung 550 so i can't comment on it, but i own the Sony KDL-40V3000. the difference between 10bit and 8bit is significant (at least to my eyes). i recommend getting a 10bit panel if you can. 1080/24p supposedly reduces screen judder during panning shots. i have my PS3 set to output @ 24p, but not sure if i would notice the difference in a side by side or not. i haven't had the opportunity to compare the V/W series side by side with the 550, so maybe another member who has compared can give some insight.
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post #4 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porter_ View Post

the difference between 10bit and 8bit is significant (at least to my eyes)

How do you measure the difference between 10 and 8 bit on the same panel, and what >8 bit source do you use to measure it?
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Originally Posted by Porter_ View Post

1080/24p supposedly reduces screen judder during panning shots.

24p input will NOT reduce judder if the display still uses 60 Hz refresh.
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post #5 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nm88 View Post

24p input will NOT reduce judder if the display still uses 60 Hz refresh.

that reminds me, on sony's 24p models, non 120hz, they have cinemotion, isn't cinemotion a 120hz or 5:5 pulldown feature. Is it possible sony's 24p models are all 120hz just without frame interpolation?
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post #6 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davez82 View Post

since really no source is 10-bit does 10-bit matter for 8 bit sources?

Contrary to what nm88 states, it is very important.

If you did no video signal processing, no adjustment of contrast, brightness, tint, color saturation, etc., it wouldn't matter two hoots.

However, I am unaware of anyone who doesn't adjust something and most display units do it by default. And the moment you do, you end up with contouring (gradient banding) in the image.

The reason is very simple. An 8-bit image contains 256 distinct levels. As soon as the image is tinkered with, 8-bit math becomes a big problem ... adjustments cause significant rounding errors. A smooth video ramp which ought to be "134, 135, 136, 137, 138" might be calculated as "134, 135, 135, 137, 138". The discontinuity shows up as a distinct "step" change and is a very annoying visual artifact. Think of underwater, smoke or sky scenes where you notice multiple bands of different colors/brightness instead of a smooth transition.

If the video processing is done in a 10-bit environment, the problem effectively disappears.

So ... an 8-bit source should be processed in a 10-bit space even if it is then displayed as an 8-bit image.

Here is an example of what 8-bit banding looks like. The original was a smooth shading with no 'steps' at all. Note one step is missing altogether in the center.


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post #7 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nm88 View Post

How do you measure the difference between 10 and 8 bit on the same panel, and what >8 bit source do you use to measure it?24p input will NOT reduce judder if the display still uses 60 Hz refresh.

when i was purchasing i was able to view the V2500 (8bit) and the V3000 (10bit) side by side running the same feed. the V3000 picture quality was significantly better. of course, this could be due to many factors such as processing technology, contrast ratio, etc. But the theory supports 10bit being superior and my limited side by side comparison supports it as well. also many atricles claim 10bit panels to be superior. good enough for me to believe.

everything i've seen regarding 24p says it reduces screen judder, but i know very little about this. care to supply links to support your statement of it NOT reducing judder?
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post #8 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 02:10 PM
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i owned the sammy 4061 and 40v300 i didn't notice any big difference from 8 bit to 10 bit panel. I had them both properly calibrated using settings found here. My ps3 content looked about the same on both sets.So there is no significant difference in PQ from 8 bit to 10 bit IMO. Also note that my eyes are good but not above average in any sort of way.
Id also like to say theres no way I'm getting another 8 bit panel over a 10 bit one just due to the fact of all the hype about 8 bit being worse than 10 bit and a so called better PQ. Even if my eyes cant see It I can perceive it.

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post #9 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afunguy26 View Post

i owned the sammy 4061 and 40v300 i didn't notice any big difference from 8 bit to 10 bit panel. I had them both properly calibrated using settings found here. My ps3 content looked about the same on both sets.So there is no significant difference in PQ from 8 bit to 10 bit IMO. Also note that my eyes are good but not above average in any sort of way.
Id also like to say theres no way I'm getting another 8 bit panel over a 10 bit one just due to the fact of all the hype about 8 bit being worse than 10 bit and a so called better PQ. Even if my eyes cant see It I can perceive it.

really? i owned the 4061 as well and used the infamous post 1500 calibration settings. it looked good, but the V3000 looks much better to me...and that's not me simply justifying my purchase. meh, i suppose everybody's eyes are different. btw your last statement is an incredibly funny and insightful truth that we can all relate to on different fronts.
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post #10 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porter_ View Post

everything i've seen regarding 24p says it reduces screen judder

It will on a 24/48/72/96/120Hz display. Not on a 60Hz display!!!
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i know very little about this. care to supply links to support your statement of it NOT reducing judder?

Google "3:2 Pulldown" and educate yourself. Start here!

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post #11 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

Here is an example of what 8-bit banding looks like. The original was a smooth gradient with no 'steps' ...


That image has been artificially banded; a true 8 bit looks much smoother than that.

The RGB levels in your image are stepped at 0, 22, 35, ... and up to 229, 236, 243, 249, effectively a 5 bit gradient, not an 8 bit gradient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

If you did no video signal processing, no adjustment of contrast, brightness, tint, color saturation, etc., it wouldn't matter two hoots.

However, I am unaware of anyone who doesn't adjust something and most display units do it by default. And the moment you do, you end up with contouring (gradient banding) in the image.

On 8 bit displays, I don't see the added banding you speak of, when doing simple adjustments. I only see banding that's in the source.
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post #12 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nm88 View Post

That image has been artificially banded; a true 8 bit looks much smoother than that.On 8 bit displays, I don't see the added banding you speak of, when doing simple adjustments. I only see banding that's in the source.

We are not talking about 8-bit displays. We are talking about 8-bit versus 10-bit processing space.

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post #13 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

It will on a 24/48/72/96/120Hz display. Not on a 60Hz display!!!Google "3:2 Pulldown" and educate yourself. Start here!

thanks for the article cavu. when i'm watching blu rays on my V3000 @ 24p, is my set still refreshing @ 60hz? or does the set recognize the input and change refresh rate to 24hz? not even sure if that's possible to be honest...could be a dumb question.
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post #14 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

We are not talking about 8-bit displays. We are talking about 8-bit versus 10-bit processing space.

That is what I mean by "8 bit display" -- one that uses 8 bit processing. Call it what you will, but your image is NOT an example of an 8 bit ramp, but rather a 5 bit ramp.

This is what a real 8 bit ramp looks like:


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post #15 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porter_ View Post

when i'm watching blu rays on my V3000 @ 24p, is my set still refreshing @ 60hz? or does the set recognize the input and change refresh rate to 24hz?

I don't know what a "V3000" is.

Virtually no display I know of will refresh at 24Hz. They will maybe refresh at 48Hz or 72Hz (depending on their internal circuitry) and the some latest devices can do 120Hz.

The the case of a 48Hz refresh, the 24Hz source will display as a series of duplicate images (ie. 2:2), the 72Hz will display a series of triplicate images (ie. 3:3) and the 120Hz displays do (5:5).

If your display is fixed at 60Hz, it will do 3:2 pulldown ... a triplicate set followed by a duplicate set, followed by a triplicate set ... etc.

That is where the "judder" comes from ... the uneven cadence of the frames.

PS. A bit of trivia ... the refresh rates are not actually 24,48,60,72 etc.
They are 24/1.001, 48/1.001, 60/1.001, 72/1.001, etc.
The real rates are 23.97Hz, 47.95Hz, 59.94Hz, 71.92Hz, etc.

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post #16 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nm88 View Post

Call it what you will, but your image is NOT an example of an 8 bit ramp, but rather a 5 bit ramp

Take it up with Mitsubishi ... it is their image from their discussion of this matter.
Quote:


The Diamond Vision Advantage - Enhanced Digital Processing

The enhanced digital processing utilized by Mitsubishi Electric Diamond Vision screens provides for 1,024 levels of gray, resulting in superior detail in the dark areas of images.



10-bit processing results in very smooth transitions between different shades of gray (or other colors). The image on the left is representative of a monochrome ramp displayed on a Mitsubishi Electric Diamond Vision screen with 10-bit processing. The image on the right represents an image displayed on a system that is capable of only 8-bit processing.


Mitsibushi Electric 10-bit


8-bit


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post #17 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 04:54 PM
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Nice, Mitsu's marketing is busted.
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post #18 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davez82 View Post

Is it worth looking for a 10 bit panel ie. sony v/w series with 24p. Or am I better off with like a samsung 550 8bit non 24p. Since neither set is 120hz, does 24p even matter? Also since really no source is 10-bit does 10-bit matter for 8 bit sources?

10-bit isn't all that important, we were fine before they came along, although on paper they really seem to help the image when viewed up close and looking at a still picutre or a solid color.

For me it's a must have, as i do think the colors look better but doubt i could point it out in a blind test.

24p input probably won't be a big deal on 60hz displays but i would say it makes all the diffrence in the world on a 120hz display.

Best way to answer this question is to do your research on this forum and then go see how you feel about the things you learned. In the end it's all about what you like and people like diffrent things.

I personally love 120hz processing, lots of others don't.

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post #19 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

Nice, Mitsu's marketing is busted.

Yeah. Right.

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post #20 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 05:14 PM
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being a devil's advocate, I analyzed the colors of the "8-bit" and "10-bit" examples from Mitsu's website:

For the 8-bit color picture, the first few readings of the RGB grey scale reads (from 0 = black to 255 = white)

0 16 24 33 41 49 57 66 74 82 90
It goes in steps of about 8, so it is indeed a 5-bit pattern.

What's amazing is even the picture showing their "10-bit electric color" is really a 6 to 7-bit picture:

0 7 13 17 21 24 27 30 33 35

It jumps up by 3 every band, which is somewhere between a 6 bit and a 7 bit.

I don't blame their marketing department, anything above 8-bit probably won't show accurately with the limitation of 1) your monitor, 2) your graphics card, and 3) the Internet. FYI attached is the picture that I have generated with a real 8-bit gray scale, banding is noticeable but the picture should be more than satisfactory for most of us.

So back to the topic: 10 bit is nice to have, but it's by no means "necessary"
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post #21 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 06:52 PM
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We're all reading this thread on 8-bit panels and/or outputing 8-bit from the graphics card. Mitsubishi's demo is just a fabrication. It's like trying to demo HDTV on a an old TV set.

There's not one source out there that is higher than 8-bit, and I doubt there ever will be. The best you could do is get a x.v.Color HD cam and pump that into a 10-bit set.

For now it's all marketing fluff.
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post #22 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABBN View Post

There's not one source out there that is higher than 8-bit, and I doubt there ever will be.

I just realized YOU GUYS REALLY DON'T GET IT!

To make it REALLY simple:
  • ALL video input is 8-bit;
  • ALL video output is 8-bit;
  • BUT if you process (adj contrast, color, etc.) your 8-bit video in an 8-bit space you cannot avoid getting mathematical rounding errors and you get banding artifacts in the image.
  • THEREFORE you need to use 10-bit space to process your 8-bit video signal to avoid banding artifacts.
Here is a technical description of the issue for those who chose to understand:
8-bit digital video signal processing can generate impairments and visual artifacts associated with changes in amplitude resolution or bit depth.

It is generally disproportionately more expensive to process ten bits than eight. Most common digital IC's are made in eight bit data widths, because data widths used in computers are multiples of eight bits. In the worst case, the quantity of hardware has to be doubled to handle the extra two bits. Some manufacturers have always used eight bits, hence there is a sizeable installed base of eight bit equipment

.
The disadvantage of eight bit video is that, with noise- free sources,"contouring"can be visible in large areas of near constant brightness. It is common practice to generate or process the signals to greater precision, and shift the information carried in fractional bits up into more significant bits by some form of variable rounding. This might be done, for example, by adding the accumulated fractions"left over" from previous pixels in error feedback, or by adding random noise- typically a pseudo-random sequence. These techniques have the effect of truncating, then adding 1 Isb (least significant bit) of noise whose mean value carries the brightness resolution from the discarded bits. The resulting increase in noise is not readily noticeable on a picture monitor, and contouring is avoided.

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post #23 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

Take it up with Mitsubishi ... it is their image from their discussion of this matter.

Mitsubishi is flat out lying. I have never seen ANY 8-bit monitor that degrade an 8 bit ramp into the 5 bit ramp they show. Not to mention, those are obviously GIFs made on a computer for marketing, not photographs of actual monitors with actual output.
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post #24 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 07:53 PM
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So it's like my 8 digit calculator needs an extra couple of digits inside to accommodate round off errors that would accumulate with multiple operations. Your right, they don't get it.
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post #25 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

I just realized YOU GUYS REALLY DON'T GET IT!

We get it, it's just false. I have NEVER seen 5 bit banding from a monitor that does 8 bit processing. That would mean rounding errors of 20+ whole tonal values (i.e., 200 is represented is 180- or 220+), which would never happen.

On 8-bit processing monitors, gray ramps are smooth. Even DVE's micro-ramps that just cover the very bottom and very top of the spectrum are smooth. You do not need a monitor with 10 bit processing to get the smooth ramp I posted. You will also never get Mitsubishi's fake 5 bit GIF ramp on an 8 bit monitor unless your display is broken.

10 bit processing falls into the same camp as xvYCC and deep color -- marketing gimmicks, at least at this stage of the game.
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What about the Toshiba 530 that uses 8 bit panel and 14 bit processor or the 540 which uses 10-bit panel and 14 bit processor. Should the 14bit processor effectively eliminate banding?
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post #27 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd779 View Post

Should the 14bit processor effectively eliminate banding?

Yes.

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post #28 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd779 View Post

Should the 14bit processor effectively eliminate banding?

No, because banding will still exist in the source.
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post #29 of 270 Old 04-09-2008, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nm88 View Post

No, because banding will still exist in the source.

It will prevent additional banding created by video processing in the display!

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post #30 of 270 Old 04-10-2008, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

It will prevent additional banding created by video processing in the display!

/shrug, I just loaded a gray ramp on my 8 bit Sharp LCD and it doesn't look at all like the 5 bit gray ramp Mitsubishi tells me it should look like. And I tweaked all the settings there are on that LCD, including CMS controls.
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