Official LNxxA750 Calibration/Settings Thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 1433 Old 10-26-2008, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerog6 View Post

Which little things?

Hi. I dyslexied your g and 6. Sorry.

The little thing where you said to always go back to WBMovie and change anything; then change it back. You said you knew why but couldn't explain it very well. Then something about I'd figure it out. Which I haven't.

btw, there is an ON/OFF setting in the Options menu called (something like) WB Reset. What do you do with that zerog6?

And a BIG thank you for the detailed post on 'how to' in the SM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero HD View Post

Thanks for your calibration. what firmware, etc? Unfortunately I recently rolled back to 1008 again, can't get anything like zerog's settings on 1009+
Luckily, rolling back firmware doesn't seem to have an adverse effect like older 61/65 series.

fw is 1012.2 which was recommended to my by Sammy online tech support to fix jittering component inputs. Upgraded from 1009.1
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post #902 of 1433 Old 10-26-2008, 10:00 PM
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good to know, I may have been a little quick to say changing firmware has no ill effects, standard def content seems very stuttery with AMP on now, opposite of what it should do, never seen that before.
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post #903 of 1433 Old 10-26-2008, 10:01 PM
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Here is the post zerog6 did that helps with the SM. I would have never figured all this out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post14128448

zero, have you added anything since this post in June?

You previously said, and the only thing I have found better in the SM vs UM is finer adjustments of contrast, brightness, and grayscale gains/offsets.
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post #904 of 1433 Old 10-26-2008, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Hi. I dyslexied your g and 6. Sorry.

The little thing where you said to always go back to WBMovie and change anything; then change it back. You said you knew why but couldn't explain it very well. Then something about I'd figure it out. Which I haven't.

btw, there is an ON/OFF setting in the Options menu called (something like) WB Reset. What do you do with that zerog6?

And a BIG thank you for the detailed post on 'how to' in the SM.



fw is 1012.2 which was recommended to my by Sammy online tech support to fix jittering component inputs. Upgraded from 1009.1

Oh ok, i'll see if I can explain it.

What happens is, when you change a value all of the settings in the sub-menu you're in are applied to the TV.

For example, in WB Movie, you have certain settings, but in the Movie settings in the advanced menu, you have different settings. Whichever was the last set that you changed, are the settings that are going to be applied, and will kind of void whatever changes you made in the other menus. Idk if you get that but it's the best I can do, lol

The WB reset is exactly what it says, to reset the WB menu. The thing is, the WB reset, is to turn on or off the ability to access the reset menu itself which is in another menu. That way you don't reset anything by mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Here is the post zerog6 did that helps with the SM. I would have never figured all this out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post14128448

zero, have you added anything since this post in June?

You previously said, and the only thing I have found better in the SM vs UM is finer adjustments of contrast, brightness, and grayscale gains/offsets.

I don't have the 750 anymore, I traded it in for a Kuro :-( . So no there's nothing else that's to be added
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post #905 of 1433 Old 10-26-2008, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerog6 View Post

Oh ok, i'll see if I can explain it.

What happens is, when you change a value all of the settings in the sub-menu you're in are applied to the TV.

For example, in WB Movie, you have certain settings, but in the Movie settings in the advanced menu, you have different settings. Whichever was the last set that you changed, are the settings that are going to be applied, and will kind of void whatever changes you made in the other menus. Idk if you get that but it's the best I can do, lol

The WB reset is exactly what it says, to reset the WB menu. The thing is, the WB reset, is to turn on or off the ability to access the reset menu itself which is in another menu. That way you don't reset anything by mistake.



I don't have the 750 anymore, I traded it in for a Kuro :-( . So no there's nothing else that's to be added

Thanks. I thought that might be it, but since you also said to copy all the settings the same in both places, I couldn't see why.

Enjoying that Kuro? (dumb question)
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post #906 of 1433 Old 10-26-2008, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Thanks. I thought that might be it, but since you also said to copy all the settings the same in both places, I couldn't see why.

Enjoying that Kuro? (dumb question)

I found that sometimes even when you copy the same settings in all the menus, the color space in the advanced menu would get messed up, even though the settings on it still read the same. I sometimes had to go through each of the color space settings and just move them back and forth in order for them to be applied again.

The kuro stinks, lol, j/k. It's really something else, there's something that makes it look just simply cleaner and more natural. And the black levels really give the entire picture, even bright scenes a depth that looks awesome.
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post #907 of 1433 Old 10-27-2008, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerog6 View Post

I found that sometimes even when you copy the same settings in all the menus, the color space in the advanced menu would get messed up, even though the settings on it still read the same. I sometimes had to go through each of the color space settings and just move them back and forth in order for them to be applied again.

The kuro stinks, lol, j/k. It's really something else, there's something that makes it look just simply cleaner and more natural. And the black levels really give the entire picture, even bright scenes a depth that looks awesome.

Yes, I have noticed that quirk with the Custom color settings. You have to just move them one click either way, but you have to do one for each color. Otherwise the colors are severely undersaturated. Strange
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post #908 of 1433 Old 10-28-2008, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Well I finally got up the nerve to calibrate in the SM. Many thanks to Zero6G for the 'how to' post months ago.

You can really dial in a precise grayscale in the SM.

This is a work in progress, but here is my current status. This calibration is for component input (so far). The reason: I run my D* box directly to my TV with component. To my AVR I run HDMI, but since I don't have a surround system, yet, I watch with just component.

I did do some HDMI calibrations through my Denon AVR, and it looks like the grayscale will be pretty much the same. I'm not ready to say for sure yet.

This was run from my PS3, also connected to my TV via component (and my AVR via HDMI), using the Rec709 disc. I have a wall mounted TV and I can tilt it back a little so the probe (Xrite DTP-94) gets full but low pressure contact. I let the TV and the probe warm up for at least 30 min, and I always calibrate the probe. When I stop I turn the TV off and the probe always shows 000000 everywhere, indicating it is still well calibrated.

The settings are all shown in the 'Comments' section of the ColorHCFR file. If you don't have ColorHCFR, I could copy/paste them here.

Part of this "work in progress" is that I am experimenting with the colors. With this particular calibration, I made no attempt to adjust the x,y coordinates of the primary colors. I'm thinking maybe there is a reason Samsung has green the way it does. So for the primaries I only adjusted their Y values (brightness) to spec, but for the secondaries I did adjust both x,y and Y (within the limits that they can be adjusted.)

I also ran a set of measurements with the Color setting at "Native", just to compare. I'll include that file. Green and Blue Y values are all lower than the recommended Rec709 spec. You can see that the Custom settings, for the most part correct the Y values of all colors, and the x,y coordinates of the secondaries. I have done some A/B with this setting going back and forth between Custom and Native, and there isn't much difference. Green grass looks greener with Custom, but only a little bit.

I selected contrast value of 93, because while looking at a 100% white window, red (x) held steady up to 93. As I went above 93, x decreased at each contrast setting from 94-100.

These settings are done in the Service Menu. Don't go there if you don't know what you're doing. I accept no responsibility. Look for a great post done by Zero6G awhile (2-3 months?) back about going into the SM. I still haven't figured out why you have to do the little thing he mentioned, but I do it anyway.

Does the backlight setting matter?
just asking because I did'nt see it in you file.
also, regarding the color space.
Do we make any adjustments to Yellow, cyan and magenta?
R G B
R 53 0 0
G 0 69 0
B 0 0 87
Thanks.
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post #909 of 1433 Old 10-28-2008, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geezuz183 View Post

Does the backlight setting matter?
just asking because I did'nt see it in you file.
also, regarding the color space.
Do we make any adjustments to Yellow, cyan and magenta?
R G B
R 53 0 0
G 0 69 0
B 0 0 87
Thanks.

Everything in calibration are ratios. So, no, backlight setting isn't supposed to matter. I actually did the cal with BL 5. After you calibrate, you can adjust backlight for room conditions such as day/night, etc.

Yes, the secondaries are adjusted. In fact they are adjusted for both saturation (Y) and hue (x,y). Look at the comments in the file.

Here's a copy and paste:

SM Component, 1080i
Rec709 disc
PS3, component, superwhite ON, RGB limited
HDMI black Normal
Movie Warm1
MSub Brightness 130
MSub Contrast 128
93 47 43 10 50/50 (Settings also set to match in Expert Settings)

W1RGain 39 W1BGain -70 W1ROffset -10 W1BOffset -19

R G B
R 53 0 0
G 0 69 0
B 0 0 87
Y 55 49 0
C 41 69 57
M 58 0 76

WBMovie gamma OFF
Expert Gamma 0

Edge Enhancement ON

AMP High

Additionally, I have looked at HDMI via my Denon AVR, and there is very little difference.

I also calibrated in the User Menu for Standard/Normal. I came up with a calibration that measures and looks almost identical to my Movie/Warm1 calibration.

Then I did a lot of A/B comparison watching football, looking at the test patterns, etc. Using the Custom color calibration for both you would be hard pressed to see any difference. Switching either one to Native and there is a small but noticeable difference, and the difference is a matter of taste. I think I prefer Native.

My next idea is to create a different Custom setup, where the locations of Native (x,y) are not changed (i.e., same CIE), but increase blue and green saturation (Y) up to Rec709 specs and then compare that to native doing the same rapid A/B testing (in Tools).

EDIT: I just noticed that the 1026 file doesn't have the CIE diagram. I saved the wrong one. The settings are good, but the measurements included CIE and the custom colors.

I put the settings on a preliminary set of measurements and deleted the final, best measurements. Darn!
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post #910 of 1433 Old 10-28-2008, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Everything in calibration are ratios. So, no, backlight setting isn't supposed to matter. I actually did the cal with BL 5. After you calibrate, you can adjust backlight for room conditions such as day/night, etc.

Yes, the secondaries are adjusted. In fact they are adjusted for both saturation (Y) and hue (x,y). Look at the comments in the file.

Here's a copy and paste:

SM Component, 1080i
Rec709 disc
PS3, component, superwhite ON, RGB limited
HDMI black Normal
Movie Warm1
MSub Brightness 130
MSub Contrast 128
93 47 43 10 50/50 (Settings also set to match in Expert Settings)

W1RGain 39 W1BGain -70 W1ROffset -10 W1BOffset -19

R G B
R 53 0 0
G 0 69 0
B 0 0 87
Y 55 49 0
C 41 69 57
M 58 0 76

WBMovie gamma OFF
Expert Gamma 0

Edge Enhancement ON

AMP High

Additionally, I have looked at HDMI via my Denon AVR, and there is very little difference.

I also calibrated in the User Menu for Standard/Normal. I came up with a calibration that measures and looks almost identical to my Movie/Warm1 calibration.

Then I did a lot of A/B comparison watching football, looking at the test patterns, etc. Using the Custom color calibration for both you would be hard pressed to see any difference. Switching either one to Native and there is a small but noticeable difference, and the difference is a matter of taste. I think I prefer Native.

My next idea is to create a different Custom setup, where the locations of Native (x,y) are not changed (i.e., same CIE), but increase blue and green saturation (Y) up to Rec709 specs and then compare that to native doing the same rapid A/B testing (in Tools).

EDIT: I just noticed that the 1026 file doesn't have the CIE diagram. I saved the wrong one. The settings are good, but the measurements included CIE and the custom colors.

I put the settings on a preliminary set of measurements and deleted the final, best measurements. Darn!

kool,
Thanks for pasting you settings..
I think I forgot to scroll down on the hcfr file.
I thought it ended at Blue..
Thanks again.
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post #911 of 1433 Old 10-28-2008, 09:19 PM
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Your settings look very good KJ.
I'm not a pro or anything but, they look very nice on my set.
Thanks.
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post #912 of 1433 Old 10-29-2008, 06:17 AM
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If you set your PS3 to Limited and your TV to Normal, the PS3 will be sending Video levels (16-235) and your TV will be expecting PC levels (0-255). The better way to do it is to either set your PS3 to Limited and TV to Low, or your PS3 to Full and TV to Normal (I recommend the former).
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post #913 of 1433 Old 10-29-2008, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

If you set your PS3 to Limited and your TV to Normal, the PS3 will be sending Video levels (16-235) and your TV will be expecting PC levels (0-255). The better way to do it is to either set your PS3 to Limited and TV to Low, or your PS3 to Full and TV to Normal (I recommend the former).

This has always been a confusing thing to me. So you are saying that in the TV Normal is (0-255) and Low is (16-235)?

Oh, and also (0-255) whatever it is called, is a PC output/input standard. More confusion!

It also appears only to apply to HDMI inputs when the PS3 is set to RGB output. So my component calibrations aren't effected by HDMI Black level settings, and since I don't send anything, not even HDMI, from the PS3 as RGB, the HDMI Black level will always be grayed out, so it doesn't really matter.

It is further confusing that on my Denon 4308 AVR, Normal is (16-235) and Wide is (0-255).

sheesh
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post #914 of 1433 Old 10-29-2008, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

This has always been a confusing thing to me. So you are saying that in the TV Normal is (0-255) and Low is (16-235)?

Oh, and also (0-255) whatever it is called, is a PC output/input standard. More confusion!

It also appears only to apply to HDMI inputs when the PS3 is set to RGB output. So my component calibrations aren't effected by HDMI Black level settings, and since I don't send anything, not even HDMI, from the PS3 as RGB, the HDMI Black level will always be grayed out, so it doesn't really matter.

It is further confusing that on my Denon 4308 AVR, Normal is (16-235) and Wide is (0-255).

sheesh

kjgarrison,

If I went through the SM settings to calibrate using your settings and I wasn't happy with the results, what would I need to do and revert to the default configuration? Just trying to get "Plan B" together.



Thanks.
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post #915 of 1433 Old 10-29-2008, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwortiz View Post

kjgarrison,

If I went through the SM settings to calibrate using your settings and I wasn't happy with the results, what would I need to do and revert to the default configuration? Just trying to get "Plan B" together.



Thanks.

Put everything back to the initial settings if you wrote them down.

or

I think reflashing the fw will reset everything. (Have never done it, tho')

or

develop your own calibration


Sometimes the settings look right but don't behave right. This is especially true of the color settings. You have to go to each of the 6 colors and adjust one of the settings. If you are showing the color at the same time and see a little setting change make a big appearance change, then this is the issue. Just change a setting for every color and then change it back.

You can also try setting your color to Native or Auto. You can do that in the User Menu.

Print out that post from Zerog6, and make sure you have done all the steps as he outlines, including the ones where you make sure the settings in WBMovie and Expert match (contrast/brightness/color/etc) and that your last step is to change a setting in WBMovie (and change it back) as your last step. Remember you are only configuring the settings for ONE input at a time. You have to go through all of these steps with every input you have, and these files are only for component. HDMI is a little different, but not much.

Also make sure you have your BR player configured properly too.

It might be the TV's settings and it might not.
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post #916 of 1433 Old 10-29-2008, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerog6 View Post

I found that sometimes even when you copy the same settings in all the menus, the color space in the advanced menu would get messed up, even though the settings on it still read the same. I sometimes had to go through each of the color space settings and just move them back and forth in order for them to be applied again.

The kuro stinks, lol, j/k. It's really something else, there's something that makes it look just simply cleaner and more natural. And the black levels really give the entire picture, even bright scenes a depth that looks awesome.

Does the Kuro have CMS?

I'm thinking I want my next TV to have really good color decoding and no way to change anything so I can just enjoy it and not be worried that I haven't tweaked everything to perfection ... lol
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post #917 of 1433 Old 10-29-2008, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Does the Kuro have CMS?

I'm thinking I want my next TV to have really good color decoding and no way to change anything so I can just enjoy it and not be worried that I haven't tweaked everything to perfection ... lol

The Elite's do, the regular Pioneers though dont. The regular pioneer's don't have anything more than color temp and the usual settings and pre-sets. The elites have everything the sammys have, CMS, White Balance, all that stuff.
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post #918 of 1433 Old 10-30-2008, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I think reflashing the fw will reset everything. (Have never done it, tho')

There have been conflicting reports on this. I wouldn't rely on it as a fall back option!

-Chris
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post #919 of 1433 Old 10-30-2008, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

This has always been a confusing thing to me. So you are saying that in the TV Normal is (0-255) and Low is (16-235)?

Oh, and also (0-255) whatever it is called, is a PC output/input standard. More confusion!

It also appears only to apply to HDMI inputs when the PS3 is set to RGB output. So my component calibrations aren't effected by HDMI Black level settings, and since I don't send anything, not even HDMI, from the PS3 as RGB, the HDMI Black level will always be grayed out, so it doesn't really matter.

It is further confusing that on my Denon 4308 AVR, Normal is (16-235) and Wide is (0-255).

sheesh

Yeah, Normal is PC (0-255) and Low is Video (16-235). It is confusing, I know... it doesn't help that other brands use different terminologies.

PS3 games and whatever is viewed in the XMB output to RGB regardless, Blu-Ray/DVD output to whatever you choose (YCbCr or RGB, YCbCr is recommended). This is one of the reasons why its important to match output levels of your TV and PS3... first, it won't clip any information or introduce any banding as the TV is expecting the same output level as the PS3, and second, if you used your PS3 to calibrate your TV with your PS3 set to output YCbCr, your TV settings will work with your PS3 when its outputting RGB (again, games and XMB).
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post #920 of 1433 Old 10-30-2008, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Yeah, Normal is PC (0-255) and Low is Video (16-235). It is confusing, I know... it doesn't help that other brands use different terminologies.

PS3 games and whatever is viewed in the XMB output to RGB regardless, Blu-Ray/DVD output to whatever you choose (YCbCr or RGB, YCbCr is recommended). This is one of the reasons why its important to match output levels of your TV and PS3... first, it won't clip any information or introduce any banding as the TV is expecting the same output level as the PS3, and second, if you used your PS3 to calibrate your TV with your PS3 set to output YCbCr, your TV settings will work with your PS3 when its outputting RGB (again, games and XMB).

When you say "match output levels" can you say exactly what that means with regards to:

The TV: HDMI Black Level, Low or Normal

The PS3: RGB vs YCbCr
Superwhite On or OFF
RGB Limited or Wide

If I'm understanding you, you are recommending HDMI Black Level Low for the TV, and YCbCr/superwhite ON/RGB Limited for the PS3.

BUT

With component input (YCbCr) into the TV, HDMI Black Level is grayed out but shows 'Normal'. Is the default 'Normal' and grayed out because when the player sends component it doesn't matter, and when the player has a game and sends RGB the TV is good to go with 'Normal'?

I understand that computers use RGB/'wide' and the TV would need to have HDMI Black at Normal. I don't understand why the PS3 has a choice of RGB Limited or Wide if the main output is going to be component (YCbCr) in the first place.

In doing calibrations, I found that adjusting Brightness totally compensates for any differences between HDMI Low or Normal with RGB input. You end up with the same result.
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post #921 of 1433 Old 10-30-2008, 03:00 PM
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Hi,

Calibration pretty much confuses me. I used the DVE to "try" to calibrate a bit. I have no equipment.

My only question is that when watching cable...sometimes the whites are really bright. Too much really. Turning down brightness doesn't seem to really do the trick. For example....if there are three people on a panel on TV...one may be really washed out and the others might be fine. I wonder if it's because of studio lighting. Could that make them washed out?

Anyway, I would love to hear some suggestions. And I probably won't be entering the Service Menu so that's out.

Thanks in advance.
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post #922 of 1433 Old 10-30-2008, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

When you say "match output levels" can you say exactly what that means with regards to:

The TV: HDMI Black Level, Low or Normal

The PS3: RGB vs YCbCr
Superwhite On or OFF
RGB Limited or Wide

What I mean by "matching outputs levels" is so everything is outputting or expecting the same output level so theres no clipping or banding. In a nutshell, what I recommend you set everything to is:
TV:
HDMI BL - Low (16-235)

PS3:
Output YCbCr (you can't adjust the range, its native 16-235)
YCbCr super-white - Enabled (this allows you to pass blacker-than-black)
RGB Mode - Limited (16-235)

So this way, Blu-Ray/DVD will be outputting YCbCr 16-235 (which is recommended) and video games or whatever is viewed in the XMB is outputting to 16-235 as well. Setting your TV to Normal (0-255) and PS3 to Full (0-255) is ok too, as long as you match your output levels.

So Low=Limited, Normal=Full.
YCbCr output is 16-235, RGB can be adjusted to Limited (16-235) or Full (0-255). I believe xvYCC is the equivalent of Full/Limited (going by PS3 terms) for YCbCr output - YCbCr is 16-235, but xvYCC expands the range to 0-255. xvYCC should only be enabled if the source is 0-255 though, which at this point theres pretty much nothing that outputs the full range over YCbCr.

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If I'm understanding you, you are recommending HDMI Black Level Low for the TV, and YCbCr/superwhite ON/RGB Limited for the PS3.

BUT

With component input (YCbCr) into the TV, HDMI Black Level is grayed out but shows 'Normal'. Is the default 'Normal' and grayed out because when the player sends component it doesn't matter, and when the player has a game and sends RGB the TV is good to go with 'Normal'?

Yeah, thats what I recommend. Not sure why it says Normal when its grayed out. That doesn't necessarily mean it's actually set to Normal... probably just means that this setting is not changable as I believe this option is only available for RGB sources. Samsung has had this "Low/Normal" HDMI Black Level setting for a while now, and it's well known that Low=16-235 and Normal=0-255.

Quote:


I understand that computers use RGB/'wide' and the TV would need to have HDMI Black at Normal. I don't understand why the PS3 has a choice of RGB Limited or Wide if the main output is going to be component (YCbCr) in the first place.

Well again, PS3 games/XMB don't output to YCbCr, they output to RGB regardless. The option in the PS3 settings to output RGB or YCbCr only applies to BR/DVD. It is still unknown by anyone other than Sony or game developers, what the PS3 natively outputs (0-255 or 16-235 RGB). I'm guessing they included the option (Microsoft included this option with the 360 as well) because some people actually connect their PS3's to their computer monitors, and some older HDTV's have DVI ports which may be expecting PC levels.

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In doing calibrations, I found that adjusting Brightness totally compensates for any differences between HDMI Low or Normal with RGB input. You end up with the same result.

It may appear that way, but if you output the Full 0-255 and are only expecting 16-235 on the TV, you will be clipping 0-15 and 236-255. Or if you output Limited 16-235 and your TV expects the Full 0-255, you may see banding as it is expanding the 16-235 -> 0-255.
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post #923 of 1433 Old 10-30-2008, 05:59 PM
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When HDMI Black Level is grayed out, what it says in the grayed out box is irrelevant because the setting is irrelevant for YCbCr. What it says in the grayed out box doesn't mean anything.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #924 of 1433 Old 10-30-2008, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

When HDMI Black Level is grayed out, what it says in the grayed out box is irrelevant because the setting is irrelevant for YCbCr. What it says in the grayed out box doesn't mean anything.

Agreed, because it only applies to RGB sources. I think the only reason why it says "Normal" is because thats the factory setting (I think it was anyway).
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post #925 of 1433 Old 10-30-2008, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by zerog6 View Post

I found that sometimes even when you copy the same settings in all the menus, the color space in the advanced menu would get messed up, even though the settings on it still read the same. I sometimes had to go through each of the color space settings and just move them back and forth in order for them to be applied again.

The kuro stinks, lol, j/k. It's really something else, there's something that makes it look just simply cleaner and more natural. And the black levels really give the entire picture, even bright scenes a depth that looks awesome.



OK this is coming from a owner of three previous Pioneer Plasmas. While I agree that The pioneer has above average PQ, I had to deal with burn in very often.
A good example would be when I had the 4360 PDP. I had virtually zero burn in and then after one year and half I could not watch a whole Sunday football game. While you may think that it may have been user error, I am very well versed in proper care and usage of my TV's.

I will admit that the initial PQ may have been more consistent with the pioneer, but the plasma burn in is no joke. I beat it for 1 year and then it appeared with the same usage. After carefully research, it has to do more with the Plasma technology than anything else. There is no cure compared to popular belief of plasma manufacturers and owners. With daily viewing it STILL will have slight image retention.

SAMMY 46750...well its an LCD. No IR or burn in. Plus 120Hz frames. Trust me, I was a Plasma fanboy when they first surfaced mass market. However, there is no cure for the technology. Nothing like running ICEAGE for 24 hours straight to get rid of the dreaded packers performance last year against the Giants....FOX scoreboard header.....

Want better sound with your new Samsung 46A550? See my sound calibration post:
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post #926 of 1433 Old 10-30-2008, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

What I mean by "matching outputs levels" is so everything is outputting or expecting the same output level so theres no clipping or banding. In a nutshell, what I recommend you set everything to is:
TV:
HDMI BL - Low (16-235)

PS3:
Output YCbCr (you can't adjust the range, its native 16-235)
YCbCr super-white - Enabled (this allows you to pass blacker-than-black)
RGB Mode - Limited (16-235)

So this way, Blu-Ray/DVD will be outputting YCbCr 16-235 (which is recommended) and video games or whatever is viewed in the XMB is outputting to 16-235 as well. Setting your TV to Normal (0-255) and PS3 to Full (0-255) is ok too, as long as you match your output levels.

So Low=Limited, Normal=Full.
YCbCr output is 16-235, RGB can be adjusted to Limited (16-235) or Full (0-255). I believe xvYCC is the equivalent of Full/Limited (going by PS3 terms) for YCbCr output - YCbCr is 16-235, but xvYCC expands the range to 0-255. xvYCC should only be enabled if the source is 16-235 though, which at this point theres pretty much nothing that outputs the full range over YCbCr.


Yeah, thats what I recommend. Not sure why it says Normal when its grayed out. That doesn't necessarily mean it's actually set to Normal... probably just means that this setting is not changable as I believe this option is only available for RGB sources. Samsung has had this "Low/Normal" HDMI Black Level setting for a while now, and it's well known that Low=16-235 and Normal=0-255.


Well again, PS3 games/XMB don't output to YCbCr, they output to RGB regardless. The option in the PS3 settings to output RGB or YCbCr only applies to BR/DVD. It is still unknown by anyone other than Sony or game developers, what the PS3 natively outputs (0-255 or 16-235 RGB). I'm guessing they included the option (Microsoft included this option with the 360 as well) because some people actually connect their PS3's to their computer monitors, and some older HDTV's have DVI ports which may be expecting PC levels.


It may appear that way, but if you output the Full 0-255 and are only expecting 16-235 on the TV, you will be clipping 0-15 and 236-255. Or if you output Limited 16-235 and your TV expects the Full 0-255, you may see banding as it is expanding the 16-235 -> 0-255.

Finally!

I get it.

Thank you very much.
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post #927 of 1433 Old 10-30-2008, 08:57 PM
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np.

I should make a correction on something, though.
Quote:
So Low=Limited, Normal=Full.
YCbCr output is 16-235, RGB can be adjusted to Limited (16-235) or Full (0-255). I believe xvYCC is the equivalent of Full/Limited (going by PS3 terms) for YCbCr output - YCbCr is 16-235, but xvYCC expands the range to 0-255. xvYCC should only be enabled if the source is 16-235 though, which at this point theres pretty much nothing that outputs the full range over YCbCr.

I meant 0-255, not 16-235.
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post #928 of 1433 Old 10-31-2008, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

np.

I should make a correction on something, though.

xvYCC should only be enabled if the source is 16-235 though, which at this point theres pretty much nothing that outputs the full range over YCbCr.

I meant 0-255, not 16-235.

I have read that if all devices in the chain support xvYCC, you can turn it on. You may not get the benefit of increased color representation if the source was not recorded that way, but you are not harming anything.

-Chris
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post #929 of 1433 Old 10-31-2008, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by caa100 View Post

I have read that if all devices in the chain support xvYCC, you can turn it on. You may not get the benefit of increased color representation if the source was not recorded that way, but you are not harming anything.

But if the source is 16-235, why expand the color space to 0-255? It would be the same thing as setting your TV to 0-255 and your source to 16-235. I'm not sure if it's safe to enable it if the source doesn't support it, but I think you're better off matching your output levels to avoid any clipping or banding just in case. I notice a difference enabling xvYCC on sources that don't support it, so it's definitely doing something.

Again, there is no material that supports xvYCC or deep color. The PS3 supposodly supports it, but its still outputting 16-235 as all material currently uses that color space. Until there is actual material that has deep color, xvYCC is useless. deep color increases the available colors, and xvYCC expands the limitation of the colors.
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post #930 of 1433 Old 11-02-2008, 01:55 AM
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Does anyone here know about RGB vs YCbCr deeply?

RGB and YCbCr is about the color steps or levels rather than the black steps or levels like 16~235 vs 0~255

And here are some pictures I took from my Xbox360 using the latest Fall Update. And No there has not been any modifications on my 360. I hate pirates. This is just the leaked Fall Update that was provided by the people who were chosen to be the first group of NXE Previewers.

And, another question is, I thought, only the HDMI1.3 supports xvYCC and why am I seeing the color difference when switching between xvYCC on and one xvYCC off, even on a 360 which is HDMI1.2 compliant?

We've got the Reference Level matching sorted out but now we've got another problem RGB and YCbCr 709 to be sorted........
I think RGB with Extended 0~255 will just work fine on the Xbox360....
Since PS3 I use RGB + RGB Full Range...
It is funny that you could use xvYCC on the Xbox360 too which is only HDMI1.2 compliant?!?!






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