Official Sony KDL-XXZ4100 Owner's Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 3520 Old 06-27-2008, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SonyLee View Post

I have a Z4100 and simply love it. I do have a question though: When the set is on the stand, the TV looks like it tilts forward a bit. Does anyone else have the TV set on the stand? Will you let me know if it is tilted just a bit forward? Don't know if it's normal but when I look at the set from the side, it appears just a bit tilted from the top. Other than that, the set is terrific. No sparkles at all!!!

Yes, it does tilt a bit on the stand, I believe there are a few posts about it in this thread.
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post #722 of 3520 Old 06-27-2008, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsa View Post

interesting. i always thought an entirely digital transmission would result in sharper text.

i was also under the impression that you can't do 1080P over VGA. is that correct?

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Originally Posted by gsobol View Post

VGA will give you native resolution of 1920x1080, with typical computer based timing of 60Hz (equivalent to 60p). But, I had a chance to spend some more time with the PC on VGA cable and I have noticed vertical bands going up and down, which is typical with an analog signal and EMI on VGA cable. So, I'll switch it back to DVI/HDMI and see how that works. Going that route has it's disadvantages, since the signal is treated as video and not computer monitor. I'll keep you posted.

OK, I tried it again, just to be sure. VGA beats DVI/HDMI input. VGA comes out much crispier. 46Z looks exactly like an over-sized computer LCD screen. When connected via HDMI letters have a tendency to wash out. Specifically when you look at the edges of the letters, they tend to bleed. I used monoprice CL2 (24AWG) 6ft HDMI/DVI cable. For the VGA connection, I have used (previously) 10 foot cable with a ferrite on one end, and I saw some bands go up and down - typical for VGA cables. Now, I switched to higher quality VGA cable with two ferrites and coax cores. Bands are gone. Half-Life 2 at 1920x1080 looks --- A M A Z I N G !!! ---
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post #723 of 3520 Old 06-27-2008, 06:15 PM
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Here's some photos from PC via VGA. I know you can't see much detail, but just the same. Also, these were taken from up close, free hand and no flash, hence the fish-eye effect and a bit of blurring. I'll try to get some more pictures of the text later.

HALF-LIFE 2








MYST 4

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post #724 of 3520 Old 06-27-2008, 09:42 PM
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Hmm... Wonder what your PC would do via a DVI-HDMI connection, would that improve on anything in your opinion? I mean, I think that VGA connection looks great, but I still wonder if the true digital method of DVI out to HDMI in would be the better way for you.

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post #725 of 3520 Old 06-27-2008, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by franke8568 View Post

I am seriously not trying to troll this thread, but I have been looking for people who have actually seen the Z and 650 in person who can make educated comments about both sets. You mentioned the 650 had bad glare and that prevented you from purchasing that tv. What if you were planning on primarily playing video games in a controlled environment where it was always dark? Would that have swayed your decision at all? That is where I am currently at in the decision making process. I have only seen the 650 in person and they were running Pirates of the Caribbean and the PQ was pretty amazing. Unfortunately, nobody has set up the Z in my area.

Using it as game monitor was not factor for me so I can't really comment on it. Again, I was wowed by the 650's picture quality when I first saw it but was concerned about the reflections.The BB near me set up a 40A650 last week looping an Entertainment Tonight special on Hancock. When I looked at it dead on, it was terrific but as I started to move off center, I saw more fade than I had previously. It was rather surprising to me but it just means that the 650S are more LCD typical than I had thought. That would not have dissuaded me from buying it if the glossy screen wasn't an issue for me.
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post #726 of 3520 Old 06-27-2008, 10:05 PM
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One tiny disappointment with the z. On movies shot in 2.35:1 aspect ratio or more, the top and bottom letterboxes are not always as black as I'd like. Specifically, in a dark room, when the scene is dark, the bars show up a bit lighter. On well light scenes, they look darker, not unusual for even good LCDs but you always hope for more.

Addendum: It looks like your viewing angle impacts the depth of black in the lettebox bars. I sat more directly in front of the screen and noticed less lightening.
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post #727 of 3520 Old 06-27-2008, 10:12 PM
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Cal, you are very active in this thread. Your impressions are HUGELY appreciated.

Just out of curiousity, why did you go with the Z over the XBR4? I'm 99% set to return my new XBR4 tomorrow for a 40z4100, but I'm not entirely sure why. Why did you make this decision? Thanks!
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post #728 of 3520 Old 06-27-2008, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bigredpeter View Post

Cal, you are very active in this thread. Your impressions are HUGELY appreciated.

Just out of curiousity, why did you go with the Z over the XBR4? I'm 99% set to return my new XBR4 tomorrow for a 40z4100, but I'm not entirely sure why. Why did you make this decision? Thanks!

Thanks. AVS is the best clearing house out there for A/V and home theater info and has been very helpful to me so if I can help anyone else, I'm happy to. Of course I'm hardly an expert and my perceptions may not be shared by anyone else.

There were several factors in the choice. While I think that the 40XBR4 is a great set, the frame made it too large for the corner stand that would hold it. I also had some concerns about the XBR's fans and the possible resulting noise issues. The Z's thin bezel meant that a 40" TV was only 1" wider than my Sharp 37" set so that was a big positive. As I previously posted, the Sammy 40A650 was terrific PQ-wise and very tempting but the glossy screen worried me. That brought it down to either the Sony 40W4100 or 40Z4100. The W looked very nice in the store but it seemed to me that the Z was much closer, in terms of it's hardware (10 bit panel, higher level backlight), to the XBR sets than the W series. I decided that, even sight unseen, the price difference was worth it to get a "semi-XBR" and not suffer any buyers remorse.
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post #729 of 3520 Old 06-27-2008, 10:52 PM
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Yeah, I think you made a good choice. Even though its not an XBR, I'm not so certain that last years XBR has a better picture than this year's Z.

The only thing that is keeping me from 100%, w/o directly stating prices, is that I got the 40XBR4 w/ a 4 year Best buy warranty for $500 less than the msrp of the kdl-40z4100 (which is listed at 2,299). I think if I wait it out though, the z will be available in 1-2 months for the same price as what I got this XBR4 tho. I hope so at least.
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post #730 of 3520 Old 06-27-2008, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigredpeter View Post

The only thing that is keeping me from 100%, w/o directly stating prices, is that I got the 40XBR4 w/ a 4 year Best buy warranty for $500 less than the msrp of the kdl-40z4100 (which is listed at 2,299). I think if I wait it out though, the z will be available in 1-2 months for the same price as what I got this XBR4 tho. I hope so at least.

It would be a gamble for sure. For what you paid for the XBR with the extra 3 years of warranty, it's a great bargain that might not come around again. You can always try the XBR and exchange it. Of course you may not be able to do a valid comparison of the XBR and Z but if you really like the XBR and it's a good physical fit in your viewing area, it is a really great buy.
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post #731 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 8IronBob View Post

Hmm... Wonder what your PC would do via a DVI-HDMI connection, would that improve on anything in your opinion? I mean, I think that VGA connection looks great, but I still wonder if the true digital method of DVI out to HDMI in would be the better way for you.

As I have mentioned before. I tried both connections. I decided to stick with VGA because text is much crispier and readable. I think HDMI/DVI would have been better if I would have used my PC as a media center.

Just to clarify VGA input and HDMI use different timings. VGA uses typical horizontal and vertical timings associated with a computer monitor. Most modern VGA cards will synchronize no problem. HDMI connection is using timing associated with video based devices (DVD,BR, console, etc.) , that can cause issues with the text display. There is a way to adjust your video card settings to compensate, but why bother if VGA looks great. I will look for the thread that describes the whole thing. I will stick with VGA though.
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post #732 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Cal1981 View Post

One tiny disappointment with the z. On movies shot in 2.35:1 aspect ratio or more, the top and bottom letterboxes are not always as black as I'd like. Specifically, in a dark room, when the scene is dark, the bars show up a bit lighter. On well light scenes, they look darker, not unusual for even good LCDs but you always hope for more.

Addendum: It looks like your viewing angle impacts the depth of black in the lettebox bars. I sat more directly in front of the screen and noticed less lightening.

I think it's a common trait of LCD screens. Plasmas don't exhibit this.
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post #733 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 06:13 AM
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Here's a link to a good site that describes whole bunch of issues with connecting PC to HDTV:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/02/08...-to-your-hdtv/

it also references back to avsforums:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=206854

Bottom line, if you want to use PC on the Z use VGA.
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post #734 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal1981 View Post

One tiny disappointment with the z. On movies shot in 2.35:1 aspect ratio or more, the top and bottom letterboxes are not always as black as I'd like. Specifically, in a dark room, when the scene is dark, the bars show up a bit lighter. On well light scenes, they look darker, not unusual for even good LCDs but you always hope for more.
...

Might just be that you don't notice the bars as much on a bright screen, but could it be that Sony is automatically increasing the backlight on dark scenes to show more shadow detail (which would have the side effect of brightening the black bars)?
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post #735 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Has anyone checked if the sequence to enter service mode is still [PWR OFF], [DISPLAY], [5], [VOL+], [PWR ON]

I would think it's worth looking for service menu items related to the auto-dimming.

So is anyone using the service menu on the 4100 series? I've never had a set that didn't benefit from some kind of service menu tweak.
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post #736 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Might just be that you don't notice the bars as much on a bright screen, but could it be that Sony is automatically increasing the backlight on dark scenes to show more shadow detail (which would have the side effect of brightening the black bars)?

Could be. I really noticed it for the first time watching the BR of Golden Compass last night (great BR video and audio transfer). It has a number of lighting transition scenes. In any event, the Sony's black levels are still tons better than the old Sharp's and I'm still tweaking its various settings. Maybe someone can set up a separate Z series calibration thread?
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post #737 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 02:08 PM
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I checked out my local Best Buy and they had the 46 inch Z4100 doing its thing. It was on a separate feed than the rest of the tvs and it was playing a Blu-Ray player. I noticed the 40 inch 650 was nearby and it was playing Pirates of the Caribbean. So, I asked the sales associate if he would throw Pirates up on the 46Z. He was happy to comply. Now, something you should know, I have been trying to figure out whether I should buy the 40z or 40 inch 650. I am neither a fan of Sony or Samsung but I know they both make some of the best LCD's. So, everything I saw will be unbias observations and hopefully it will help others who are trying to decide between these two tv's.

First, the 650's colors had a lot more punch to them. The blacks were generally more black than the Z. However, this was impossible to test because Best Buy's lighting is crazy bright and it really has a way of making matte-finished LCD's look washed out. I would imagine in a dark room they would be a lot closer in black level. One thing is for sure, the Sony has very good blacks, you could tell just by observing the tv up close. It made other matte finished LCDs look gray.

Second, the 650 had a great deal of POP to the colors but, the colors felt somewhat unrealistic compared to the Sony. These are probably factory settings and so those can be adjusted. But, it would seem out of the box that the Samsung's colors were a little exaggerated. This might be untrue since I have read in a lot of places that Samsung's colors were very accurate. Maybe the Z's colors were just more washed out because of the lighting.

Third, I believe the green on the Sony was pretty mediocre. I would have to see more sources and stuff.

Fourth, I think it is safe to say that the Z does 120hz motion much better than the Samsung. This might sound crazy to some people. But, after I watched both sets for awhile it just became apparent that the 120hz on the Samsung made things look unnatural. Everyone knows that 120hz has a soap-opera effect, but on the Sony this was more subtle. Yet, not subtle in a 60hz way, more like subtle in this is being processed better and everything is operating much smoother.

Fifth, this might be irrelevant for some, but the Sony had a much nicer design overall. It's slim bezel really makes a difference on the eyes. I think the red ToC is distracting. Though the glossy and matte finishes probably wouldn't distract from my personal viewing because I mainly watch things in a controlled dark room.

Sixth, while I was waiting for the sales associate to get the remote control for the blu-ray player, i sat there and observed the black parts of the Pirates of the Caribbean intro screen. I DID NOT see any sparkles at all. I looked pretty hard. It was such an underwhelming issue when I finally looked for them. I thought I would see something. (Keep in mind they had this model set up by itself; so less interference).

I already ordered the Z, and it will be coming to my house sometime next week, so, the final test will be to unpack the Z and see if the lighting was a major problem or if it is being outperformed in the colors department. However, I am open to returning it and getting the 650. One thing that might be a deal breaker for the 650 is that you can't adjust any of the settings while in game mode and I will be doing a lot of gaming. That just seems unreasonable over the long run.
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post #738 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 04:30 PM
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We need to hear from the guy that had 4 Zs set up and a couple of 750s and hear what Tv he thinks is better.Thats who I want to hear from.Didnt he say he was going
to review them? Other then the sparkles, Head to head which one is better?
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post #739 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Nthstar View Post

We need to hear from the guy that had 4 Zs set up and a couple of 750s and hear what Tv he thinks is better.Thats who I want to hear from.Didnt he say he was going
to review them? Other then the sparkles, Head to head which one is better?

If we even had any Z4100s on display at a BB or CC around here, I'd know the quality difference, but unfortunately, it doesn't seem like that's gonna happen for a while. For now, all I have is the A750 to go by. Just wish that they'd have some leeway as far as how long it takes after launch to actually have one on the store wall somewhere.

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post #740 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by frankefrum View Post

Are there any Z owners that wouldn't mind taking some more pictures of their tv? I would like to see what this thing can do and now that all the sparkle conversation is dying down, maybe we can get some useful stuff on this board. Preferably I would like to see what the tv can do in situations like ps3, 360, running blu-ray in colorful scenes. That sort of stuff. Thanks to anyone who takes the time to do this!

As you command. The pics are from Close Encounters Blu-ray (absolutely spectacular). The set is on corner stand and is angled a bit to the left. The center speaker is normally in front of the set. I tried to bounce my camera's flash with partial success.







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post #741 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by franke8568 View Post

Fourth, I think it is safe to say that the Z does 120hz motion much better than the Samsung. This might sound crazy to some people. But, after I watched both sets for awhile it just became apparent that the 120hz on the Samsung made things look unnatural. Everyone knows that 120hz has a soap-opera effect, but on the Sony this was more subtle. Yet, not subtle in a 60hz way, more like subtle in this is being processed better and everything is operating much smoother.

Now, that's a common misconception that the 120Hz is making the images look "plastic". It's NOT THE 120Hz fault. These sets display 120Hz all the time, you can NOT turn it off. If it was only 120Hz, you would not be able to tell the difference between 120Hz and 60Hz sets. (That's not entirely true, but bear with me) What makes the images look plastic is another technology that companies put in these sets. Sony calls it "Motion Flow", Samsung calls theirs "Auto Motion". They do exactly the same thing. Since most of the signal comes into the set at 60Hz, this allows for extrapolation of extra frames (in between frames) that normally do not exist. This used to be a big thing for DVD players when dealing with 24fps material, it was called 3:2 pull-down. That's also the reason for additional lag on these sets, since the processor has to do more calculations to create these additional frames.
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post #742 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by gsobol View Post

Now, that's a common misconception that the 120Hz is making the images look "plastic". It's NOT THE 120Hz fault. These sets display 120Hz all the time, you can NOT turn it off. If it was only 120Hz, you would not be able to tell the difference between 120Hz and 60Hz sets. (That's not entirely true, but bear with me) What makes the images look plastic is another technology that companies put in these sets. Sony calls it "Motion Flow", Samsung calls theirs "Auto Motion". They do exactly the same thing. Since most of the signal comes into the set at 60Hz, this allows for extrapolation of extra frames (in between frames) that normally do not exist. This used to be a big thing for DVD players when dealing with 24fps material, it was called 3:2 pull-down. That's also the reason for additional lag on these sets, since the processor has to do more calculations to create these additional frames.

Thanks for the info. I am actually aware of these other processes that go into the overall picture, but this is a helpful distinction. I should have been more specific.
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post #743 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal1981 View Post

As you command. The pics are from Close Encounters Blu-ray (absolutely spectacular). The set is on corner stand and is angled a bit to the left. The center speaker is normally in front of the set. I tried to bounce my camera's flash with partial success.









Does the picture look soft to you? Perhaps its your camera, the lighting, or the settings on the tv.
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post #744 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by franke8568 View Post

Does the picture look soft to you? Perhaps its your camera, the lighting, or the settings on the tv.

It was probably me. I was holding the camera with one hand and a dark paper in front of the built in flash with the other to get a bounce effect. I didn't freeze the player and just shot "live". Trust me,the picture was tack sharp.
I also really got to see how well the Z handles blacks. The movie has a lot of scenes with stars against a black sky and they were perfect. There was also a sequence where Richard Dreyfus was wearing a dark blue sweater and you could see every detail and shadow. My wife, who pretends not to be impressed with my techno toys, was walking by, stopped dead in her tracks and sat down to watch. Of course Blu-ray helps just a tad with these issues.
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post #745 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal1981 View Post

It was probably me. I was holding the camera with one hand and a dark paper in front of the built in flash with the other to get a bounce effect. I didn't freeze the player and just shot "live". Trust me,the picture was tack sharp.
I also really got to see how well the Z handles blacks. The movie has a lot of scenes with stars against a black sky and they were perfect. There was also a sequence where Richard Dreyfus was wearing a dark blue sweater and you could see every detail and shadow. My wife, who pretends not to be impressed with my techno toys, was walking by, stopped dead in her tracks and sat down to watch. Of course Blu-ray helps just a tad with these issues.

Awesome. I am beginning to think my decision to get the Z was a good one. I can't wait to get it next week! It is like 90 miles away, haha. I love to track shipping.
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post #746 of 3520 Old 06-28-2008, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by franke8568 View Post

Awesome. I am beginning to think my decision to get the Z was a good one. I can't wait to get it next week! It is like 90 miles away, haha. I love to track shipping.

Unless your Z is "sparkling", I suspect that you are going to very pleased.
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post #747 of 3520 Old 06-29-2008, 12:06 AM
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Good morning, fellow readers! After much searching for the perfect lcd hdtv, my final choice has come down to the 40" Sony Z and the Sammy 40" 750---and I have both setting right here in front of me as I type this for the championship bout. I got the 750 in exchange for a 650 (cheaper too!) on Father's day and I picked up the Z a week later at a nearby BB. Thanks to BB's new RZ policy I have roughly 3o more days to truly find out which tv is the champion. I was content to keep the 750, but I had long admired the Z, waiting for it to become available. I had the two sets in different rooms for a few days but now they are both in my living room. I hope to update and document my findings here from time to time until my Decision Day arrives sometime next month. After less than a week of comparison, there are definitely selling points to both. I absolutely love the design of the Sony Z(all black model)! It's almost 4" less wide than the 750, a perfect fit for my stand. For those scared of the '08 Sony "hole" design, this is the TV you want...it's very minimal. By my measuring, I find the Sony screen to actually be bigger than the 750's. This is very noticeable on my local NBC station as the just scan lines are clearly visible on the Z while only one is slightly visible on the 750. Well, it's getting late so that's all I have for now. I'll try to post pics soon as well.
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post #748 of 3520 Old 06-29-2008, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soonerfanjps View Post

Good morning, fellow readers! After much searching for the perfect lcd hdtv, my final choice has come down to the 40" Sony Z and the Sammy 40" 750---and I have both setting right here in front of me as I type this for the championship bout. I got the 750 in exchange for a 650 (cheaper too!) on Father's day and I picked up the Z a week later at a nearby BB. Thanks to BB's new RZ policy I have roughly 3o more days to truly find out which tv is the champion. I was content to keep the 750, but I had long admired the Z, waiting for it to become available. I had the two sets in different rooms for a few days but now they are both in my living room. I hope to update and document my findings here from time to time until my Decision Day arrives sometime next month. After less than a week of comparison, there are definitely selling points to both. I absolutely love the design of the Sony Z(all black model)! It's almost 4" less wide than the 750, a perfect fit for my stand. For those scared of the '08 Sony "hole" design, this is the TV you want...it's very minimal. By my measuring, I find the Sony screen to actually be bigger than the 750's. This is very noticeable on my local NBC station as the just scan lines are clearly visible on the Z while only one is slightly visible on the 750. Well, it's getting late so that's all I have for now. I'll try to post pics soon as well.

Soonerfanjps,

I am looking forward to your opinions and subjective comparisons between these two HDTVs. I have been debating on how much I want (can) spend on my very first TV. Unfortunately, my local BB has neither the Z series sony nor the 650/750 samsung, at least according to BB website. I am interested in only a 40" LCD. I will need to find a place where I can observe these products myself.

I am a sony TV fan (who has never owned a TV in his life) and will most likely go with a sony. Will it be the W or the Z - I can't really evaluate to make that decision. Is the extra $400 - $600 for the Z worth it compared to the W model?

cheers!
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post #749 of 3520 Old 06-29-2008, 07:04 AM
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The 40 Z is definitely the better looking set comparing it to the 750. I do like the smaller
frame around the picture.Its no dought (to me) the better looking Tv but the head to head is whats more important here (picture wise).
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post #750 of 3520 Old 06-29-2008, 09:42 AM
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Can anyone tell me how big the box for a 46 Z4100 is? Will it fit in the back of a minivan (Odyssey) is what I wonder, or if I need to remove a seat. Thank you.
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