SHARP LED-LCD, Anticipation Thread! - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 05:04 AM
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The HDTV magazine in Germany just announced they will have evaluation, "as the first magazine in the world", of Sharp XS-1 52" in their next issue appearing on Dec. 5. They want to provide answer if the TV scores the reference level.

For now they offer a video of unpacking and setting up the 52" which despite being thin is not light or easy to assemble, 4 persons had to be involved. The unpacking process and successful TV operation is now documented .

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post #362 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 06:28 AM
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At least somebody got them to enjoy
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post #363 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

This is unprecedented price comparing to other 52 inchers., it is hard to imagine who buys it.

BUT if Sharp XS- 1 series has "unprecedented image quality" in good sense, one can imagine buyers for the 65" model. Getting the biggest and absolutely best is attractive for high-end videophiles.

True. I can't imagine anyone shelling that much for the 52" and not going for 65" - it's not like you can be price-conscious at that level. Which leads to the question - why are they making 52" in first place? It will have exactly 0 sales - unless it comes down to a more realistic price level at some point.

Let's see how that german magazine review will come out...
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post #364 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 12:32 PM
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Gizmodo posted a review yesterday around noon.
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post #365 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by C-Lo View Post

Gizmodo posted a review yesterday around noon.

http://gizmodo.com/5083986/review-th...nest-lcd-hdtvs Not entirely about the XS-1, but it mentions it plus 2 others a lot. It says the XS-1 does lose its off-angle viewing more so than the hitachi.

What is dead can never die. Long live my 151!
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post #366 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

http://gizmodo.com/5083986/review-th...nest-lcd-hdtvs Not entirely about the XS-1, but it mentions it plus 2 others a lot. It says the XS-1 does lose its off-angle viewing more so than the hitachi.

It does says that it is not up to the level of gen1 Kuro plasma but it does not say if/how the set was calibrated. Altogether this is not a serious technical review, it does not mention quality of color reproduction at all.
The viewing angle looks like an issue. Likely this set is no better than
Sony and Samsung LED BL TVs. This makes its price insane.

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post #367 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

It does says that it is not up to the level of gen1 Kuro plasma but it does not say if/how the set was calibrated. Altogether this is not a serious technical review, it does not mention quality of color reproduction at all.
The viewing angle looks like an issue. Likely this set is no better than
Sony and Samsung LED BL TVs. This makes its price insane.


Yeah at least we know how much better it looks than a non LED LCD:

Overexposed to show how when the blacks aren't crushed by the camera:
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post #368 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 06:23 PM
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post #369 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 07:24 PM
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What the hell! I just saw the 65 inch XS1 in a mall at a Sharp booth. Weird, as
I wouldn't expect the thing to be fully available to check out in the middle of a
mall in Mississauga, Ontario (Canada). For the folks in the area, it's at Erin Mills
towncentre. I totally didn't expect it.

I gotta say, this was one awesome looking set. The size alone blew me away
(I'm used to a 60 inch plasma but 65 seems so much larger) and it's damned thin!
I mean, I checked it out from the side and it's super thin! I totally loved the
mount they used on it too! It kinda reminded me a lot of Pioneer's 9mm demo.

As for the PQ, this looked *FAR* better than any LCD I've seen, and that includes
the Sony XBR8 / Samsung 950. I had to look twice as it was like a souped up
plasma with seriously vibrant colours. If this thing came down to 8K, I'd hit it!
No questions asked. At the current price, it's out of my league, but I think this
is one set that's at the end of the upgrade-itis road that many folks are on.
It's that good! This is what I expect from the new neo-pdp's... and it's in the
flavour of an LCD! The only thing I'm unsure is the blacks since we're talking
a mall here... but considering the environment, it looked fantastic.

Sharp definitely is back with this one... finally! I mean, it's like an LCD that's
source-lit (instead of back-lit). No sense of transparency or anything... just
pure colour! Oh, and I didn't see any ghosting/jutter at all! Impressive!
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post #370 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nambit View Post

What the hell! I just saw the 65 inch XS1 in a mall at a Sharp booth. Weird, as
I wouldn't expect the thing to be fully available to check out in the middle of a
mall in Mississauga, Ontario (Canada). For the folks in the area, it's at Erin Mills
towncentre. I totally didn't expect it.

I gotta say, this was one awesome looking set. The size alone blew me away
(I'm used to a 60 inch plasma but 65 seems so much larger) and it's damned thin!
I mean, I checked it out from the side and it's super thin! I totally loved the
mount they used on it too! It kinda reminded me a lot of Pioneer's 9mm demo.

As for the PQ, this looked *FAR* better than any LCD I've seen, and that includes
the Sony XBR8 / Samsung 950. I had to look twice as it was like a souped up
plasma with seriously vibrant colours. If this thing came down to 8K, I'd hit it!
No questions asked. At the current price, it's out of my league, but I think this
is one set that's at the end of the upgrade-itis road that many folks are on.
It's that good! This is what I expect from the new neo-pdp's... and it's in the
flavour of an LCD! The only thing I'm unsure is the blacks since we're talking
a mall here... but considering the environment, it looked fantastic.

Sharp definitely is back with this one... finally! I mean, it's like an LCD that's
source-lit (instead of back-lit). No sense of transparency or anything... just
pure colour! Oh, and I didn't see any ghosting/jutter at all! Impressive!

Looks like I'll have to head out to Erin Mills tomorrow Thanks Nambit.

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post #371 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 10:08 PM
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See that the canadians get all the sharp love and the people in the US are left to hang, wow normally it is reversed lol
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post #372 of 603 Old 11-14-2008, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

See that the canadians get all the sharp love and the people in the US are left to hang, wow normally it is reversed lol

With Pioneer... yes... with Sharp... no.
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post #373 of 603 Old 11-15-2008, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nambit View Post

As for the PQ, this looked *FAR* better than any LCD I've seen, and that includes
the Sony XBR8 / Samsung 950. I had to look twice as it was like a souped up
plasma with seriously vibrant colours.

In the Gizmodo review viewing angle is soundning a serious problem (not only washing out but tint). The set is not up to the Kuro PQ in their opinion, and in particular it looks strange they do not mention the colors at all. I do not see yet contradictions with your opinion since displays looking very good in shops may reveal weaker points only in a controlled environment like the viewing angle can be nonissue in a well-lit place and annoying in low-light level room.

If any of these problems turns out to be real, how the XS-1 extreme price can be justified for a nonextreme PQ display? OK, thin is apparently supercool but the purpose of display is looking at its sizable front, not the thin side.

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post #374 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nambit View Post

What the hell! I just saw the 65 inch XS1 in a mall at a Sharp booth. Weird, as
I wouldn't expect the thing to be fully available to check out in the middle of a
mall in Mississauga, Ontario (Canada). For the folks in the area, it's at Erin Mills
towncentre. I totally didn't expect it.

what's the name and phone no. of the store w/i this mall that sells the unit?

Also, based on what you say, I assume there is no more banding issue?
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post #375 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

In the Gizmodo review viewing angle is soundning a serious problem (not only washing out but tint).

....only in a controlled environment like the viewing angle can be nonissue in a well-lit place and annoying in low-light level room.

OK, thin is apparently supercool but the purpose of display is looking at its sizable front, not the thin side.

Apparently there are many people out there that look at the set from the side, since viewing angle is mentioned here so much and it seems that looking at it from the side is important to you as well.

How may of you really get into a "controlled" environment (like your living room) and sit 70 degrees off center to watch your set? From that perspective viewing angle is critical I guess, but is that even 50% of your viewing?
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post #376 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Apparently there are many people out there that look at the set from the side, since viewing angle is mentioned here so much and it seems that looking at it from the side is important to you as well.

How may of you really get into a "controlled" environment (like your living room) and sit 70 degrees off center to watch your set? From that perspective viewing angle is critical I guess, but is that even 50% of your viewing?


Right on. I've been barking about this phenomenon since "viewing angle" became the latest "buzz phrase", thanks to a few models that were particularly awful. I take it up even a step further from 70 degress and insert 45, as I personally feel that anything beyond that is definitely atypical...especially for those purchasing high-end televisions who are typically more conscious about their room's seating arrangements.

It doesn't seem to be going away, though as I've heard people yakking about a set that didn't look "good" at 170. I've yet to see this set, but I'd be willing to bet it looks great from every reasonable viewing angle.

Unreal.

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post #377 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

http://gizmodo.com/5083986/review-th...nest-lcd-hdtvs Not entirely about the XS-1, but it mentions it plus 2 others a lot. It says the XS-1 does lose its off-angle viewing more so than the hitachi.

This "review" is pretty useless - the only reason we're looking at it is the lack of any other info. I mean seriously - comparing it to random set of inferior TVs, how about compare to other LED sets. And then, the only meaningful thing mentioned is problem with the viewing angles - which I don't buy until I see it for myself (since all reviews were ganging the XBR8 about that and I didn't see a problem at all that would bother me). Beyond that, the "review" is completely useless - power consumption, really is that the 1st thing people check about a TV?? Imagine someone spending $16K on a TV and worrying about the electric bill. Can somebody finally do a real review, or even preview of this set
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post #378 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Apparently there are many people out there that look at the set from the side, since viewing angle is mentioned here so much and it seems that looking at it from the side is important to you as well.

How may of you really get into a "controlled" environment (like your living room) and sit 70 degrees off center to watch your set? From that perspective viewing angle is critical I guess, but is that even 50% of your viewing?

If you plot black level versus viewing angle it is not a flat line between -70 and +70 as you suggest. It is more like a gaussian curve similar to the data pictured below. Depending on your sensitivity to contrast shifts (black level vs white level changes) you can start to see issues at much shorter angles. This leaves a sort of sweet spot for viewing.

For me the issue is only a problem with low APL (dark scenes). Add clouding to the picture and it can be annoying at 4 of the 6 seating positions in my family room. Those seats are ~ 20 - 30 deg off centre.


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post #379 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

If you plot black level versus viewing angle it is not a flat line between -70 and +70 as you suggest. It is more like a gaussian curve similar to the data pictured below. Depending on your sensitivity to contrast shifts (black level vs white level changes) you can start to see issues at much shorter angles. This leaves a sort of sweet spot for viewing.

For me the issue is only a problem with low APL (dark scenes). Add clouding to the picture and it can be annoying at 4 of the 6 seating positions in my family room. Those seats are ~ 20 - 30 deg off centre.


I'm not going to question the validity of the graphs, but I can say with 100% certainty that I don't see any fluctuation in black levels from 45 degrees and less out of my XBR4 that's worth noting.

I too had heard similar "viewing angle" garbage with the new xbr 6 and 8 so I and my brother spent the better part of an hour looking for it at a local retailer and again found nothing even close to the exaggerated claims many were making on some of these boards. Even more damning, most of the angles we were standing at were grossly beyond where 95% of consumers would EVER watch a television.

I guess people must have radically different experiences, though.

James


WOW, just noticed that LCD contrast ratios are nearly HALVED at 20 degrees!? 20 degrees!??

Insane...it's just hard to imagine that figure being accurate and people continuing to "suffer" with their LCD television.

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post #380 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I'm not going to question the validity of the graphs, but I can say with 100% certainty that I don't see any fluctuation in black levels from 45 degrees and less out of my XBR4 that's worth noting.

I too had heard similar "viewing angle" garbage with the new xbr 6 and 8 so I and my brother spent the better part of an hour looking for it at a local retailer and again found nothing even close to the exaggerated claims many were making on some of these boards. Even more damning, most of the angles we were standing at were grossly beyond where 95% of consumers would EVER watch a television.

I guess people must have radically different experiences, though.

James

Oh I agree, that perception vary significantly. I am planning on getting either the Samsung 850 or 950 for my bedroom which only has two viewing positions so don't think I'm just anti LCD. I guess I'm just very sensitive to black level shifts.

I also have a Plasma (141FD) which is supposed to have the blackest blacks of all time but I still see quite a strong glow from it in a dark room so I guess I have sensitive eyes

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post #381 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 11:26 AM
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Looking at the graph again, I guess it may exploit how worthless contrast ratios really are.

For instance, at 45 degrees, in a brightly-lit room, it suggests an almost 90% DECREASE in contrast ratio. Now, while most reasonable people would agree there is a decline, I seriously doubt ANY would guess anywhere near that figure, and, more imperatively, that the "decline" in overall picture quality is even a fraction of that number.

Goes to show you how integral contrast levels are to overall image quality.
Perhaps the above graph best exploits the ridiculously varying contrast figures supplied by manufaturers. Just take a look at any spec sheet offered up by them.

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post #382 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Looking at the graph again, I guess it may exploit how worthless contrast ratios really are.

For instance, at 45 degrees, in a brightly-lit room, it suggests an almost 90% DECREASE in contrast ratio. Now, while most reasonable people would agree there is a decline, I seriously doubt ANY would guess anywhere near that figure, and, more imperatively, that the "decline" in overall picture quality is even a fraction of that number.

Goes to show you how integral contrast levels are to overall image quality.
Perhaps the above graph best exploits the ridiculously varying contrast figures supplied by manufaturers. Just take a look at any spec sheet offered up by them.

James

Maybe you should be questioning the validity of the graphs then. Maybe they used a cheap LCD laptop screen for testing How can one graph tell the story for multiple LCD technologies on the market (obviously it can't). I would not go by the numbers here. My point was that the contrast shift (shift in blacks and whites) is gaussian, not linear as some suggest.

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post #383 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I'm not going to question the validity of the graphs, but I can say with 100% certainty that I don't see any fluctuation in black levels from 45 degrees and less out of my XBR4 that's worth noting.

I too had heard similar "viewing angle" garbage with the new xbr 6 and 8 so I and my brother spent the better part of an hour looking for it at a local retailer and again found nothing even close to the exaggerated claims many were making on some of these boards. Even more damning, most of the angles we were standing at were grossly beyond where 95% of consumers would EVER watch a television.

I guess people must have radically different experiences, though.

James


WOW, just noticed that LCD contrast ratios are nearly HALVED at 20 degrees!? 20 degrees!??

Insane...it's just hard to imagine that figure being accurate and people continuing to "suffer" with their LCD television.

I can start to see a difference on my older LCD at around 60 degrees, however that seating position puts me in the next room. My newer LCD is better than that by a good part (nothing scientific here, just my eyes).

I find it hard to beleive that CR goes to 50% at 20 degrees, I guess it just depends on the set or even if the data is old or new. Or even the type of LCD. For instance, the laptop that I am using I would say matches the chart above almost exactly. Neither LCD set that I own is even close to this and if they were I would not have kept them (it would have been plasma here I come).

The viewing angle issue is a non-issue for allot of us out here. Just as burn in is for the most part a non-issue for plasma people.
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post #384 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Maybe you should be questioning the validity of the graphs then. Maybe they used a cheap LCD laptop screen for testing How can one graph tell the story for multiple LCD technologies on the market (obviously it can't). I would not go by the numbers here. My point was that the contrast shift (shift in blacks and whites) is gaussian, not linear as some suggest.

Well said.

Again my laptop matches that almost exactly. On my sets at home there is a degree of non-linear shift to the loss of PQ. At some point on the older set it goes from still watchable to complete loss of color and CR in a very short angle.
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post #385 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 12:12 PM
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I have read a very interesting 2008 paper on the subject. They compare both MVA and IPS LCD panels to a Plasma display. The results are perception based (rated by observers). Results are very interesting. They show that vertical angle is a driving force in the perception of poor horizontal viewing angles. I would agree with this data.

What LC tech are most LCD panels on the market? TN, IPS, or MVA?

Here is the citation Viewing angle perception

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post #386 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by st_o_p View Post

This "review" is pretty useless - the only reason we're looking at it is the lack of any other info. I mean seriously - comparing it to random set of inferior TVs, how about compare to other LED sets. :

Right, the review is useless since it looks like it is done by Joe Sixpack for a crowd buying TVs in Walmarts. This explains why he makes absolutely crazy comparison to some random 37 inch sets; the message to standard consumers is: don't worry, your 500 bucks sets are pretty much the same as the $15 000 65" which those stupid bankers are buying. BUT, if such guy points out viewing angle problem it looks to be something real. He mentions no trace of motion blur, he does not mention colors, no problem then in those departments.

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post #387 of 603 Old 11-17-2008, 01:05 PM
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It's not really surprising that the dropoff would be gaussian when the light is being passed through a diffuser plate. If you put a diffuser in front of a plasma or a CRT I imagine you'd notice something similar.

I'd imagine redesigning LCDs to have a much less optically agressive diffuser design would improve the contrast dropoff.
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post #388 of 603 Old 11-18-2008, 09:58 PM
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For those who have seen the 65" screen, Could some1 please go to feel the screen to see if there is any heat radiating off the screen?

Since it's RGB LED LCD, there shouldn't be any heat
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post #389 of 603 Old 11-18-2008, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nambit View Post

What the hell! I just saw the 65 inch XS1 in a mall at a Sharp booth. Weird, as
I wouldn't expect the thing to be fully available to check out in the middle of a
mall in Mississauga, Ontario (Canada). For the folks in the area, it's at Erin Mills
towncentre. I totally didn't expect it.

Explanation why it is there is that Sharp Canada HQ is in this city. Now the question is if they got 1 piece of 65" for the whole country and put it in this mall.

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post #390 of 603 Old 11-19-2008, 06:11 AM
TNG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post

Since it's RGB LED LCD, there shouldn't be any heat

You do know that it still does use electricity?

Really I don't feel allot of heat off of my screens at home, the LED sets should be not cold but maybe just above ambient. Does anybody know how much wattage this model uses compared to a 65" SE94?
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