SHARP LED-LCD, Anticipation Thread! - Page 17 - AVS Forum
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post #481 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Lo View Post

Sound & Vision mag just reviewed the XS1. Pretty positive. Cover story in January issue.

Have they identified any weaknesses in the PQ?

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post #482 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 01:50 PM
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Where do you buy Sound And vision? Is there a scan copy or a text ver. that can post here?
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post #483 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 05:49 PM
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It'd be good if someone could scan the juicy bits.
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post #484 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 06:14 PM
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it is online:

Sharp LC-52XS1U-S 52-inch LED LCD HDTV
Test Report

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...-lcd-hdtv.html

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post #485 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 06:21 PM
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Call me a skeptic but the article just seems a bit odd to me. It is dated January 2009 but yet they make it sound like Sharp is the first one to use separate RGB LED's, with no mention of the XBR8. Granted I know this is supposed to be about Sharp but they honestly make it sound like no one else is using RGB LED's and they are the first to push this potential. The next thing I noticed on page 2 was they pitted it against an 8G Kuro and not a 9G. Even in that mode it was rated as "comparing favorably"

I just am not blown away by the tidbits offered in this article, especially considering the MSRP that is being floated around in the article. Are you kidding me?
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post #486 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 06:56 PM
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uni... typo: It is dated July 2009 but yet ....

january 2009

i thought the review was a bit, well, review-lite. not very in depth at all. maybe he was in a rush to get the first review out.


about the $12,000 msrp but the assumption is that it won't be pricefixed like the sony xbr8 and so will be much lower in the real world.


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post #487 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 06:57 PM
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Yeah, it didn't sound like the reviewer was blown away like he should have been for the price they are asking. Always hard to tell from just one review, though, so let's see what comes back after CES...

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post #488 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 07:06 PM
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Hmm I didn't see the July part anywhere. Just January 2009, but it is written like it was actually done in July of 2008, which would explain no mention of the Sony XBR8 and pitting it against an 8G Kuro and not a 9G Kuro.
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post #489 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

Hmm I didn't see the July part anywhere. Just January 2009, but it is written like it was actually done in July of 2008, which would explain no mention of the Sony XBR8 and pitting it against an 8G Kuro and not a 9G Kuro.

okay. i'm confused. just pointing out what i thought was your typo -- you have july 2009.
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...It is dated July 2009 ....


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post #490 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TVbc View Post

okay. i'm confused. just pointing out what i thought was your typo -- you have july 2009.

lol sorry. long shift at work. I did in fact make a typo. Thank you for the correction. I still feel like that article was written awhile back, and just recycled now though.
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post #491 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 07:38 PM
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That article intrigues me.

What kuro did he test it against (does he say?)?? If they have a CMS, how could he not get the green remotely close to REC709?

I think he probably could've measured the grayscale better. Does anybody know the formula to find the delta Es? I know the PRO-111FD measures below one from 10-100 IRE*. It says that there aren't RGB high/lows to use...that seems sketchy.

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Originally Posted by review View Post

Gray fields looked exceptionally good for an LCD viewed from head on, with the patterns showing excellent uniformity down to 30 IRE, though the LC-52XS1U showed some drop off of contrast when viewed from as little as 15 degrees left or right of center (equivalent to shifting about 4 feet either way at an 8 foot distance). Overscan of HDTV signals measured 3% in Stretch mode, 0% in Dot-by-Dot, 15% horizontal/5% vertical in Super Stretch, and 15% horizontal/15% vertical in Zoom.

eek, very bad angle drop-off -- Wait doesn't that disagree with impressions that the viewing angle is good.

I vote a sketchy review.

P.S. I love it how the pioneer/sharp coalition produces pioneer speakers on the sharp panel.

*This chart only shows 20-100 on the sharp review. Did the reviewer have good equipment or could it not go that low??

Edit: Uni, yeah I just saw that on the performance section. At least we have a display that can finally beat the 8G blacks (excluding the a950 and xbr8. I'm just saying that in general).

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post #492 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

That article intrigues me.

What kuro did he test it against (does he say?)?? If they have a CMS, how could he not get the green remotely close to REC709?

I think he probably could've measured the grayscale better. Does anybody know the formula to find the delta Es? I know the PRO-111FD measures below one from 10-100 IRE*. It says that there aren't RGB high/lows to use...that seems sketchy.

eek, very bad angle drop-off -- Wait doesn't that disagree with impressions that the viewing angle is good.

I vote a sketchy review.

P.S. I love it how the pioneer/sharp coalition produces pioneer speakers on the sharp panel.

*This chart only shows 20-100 on the sharp review. Did the reviewer have good equipment or could it not go that low??

At the top of page 2 he says against a 1st generation Kuro, which I took as the 8G Kuro, which yeah made it seem a bit sketchy for a supposed January 2009 write up. Even against the 8G it was rated as comparing favorably, which leads a lot open to interpretation.
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post #493 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

At the top of page 2 he says against a 1st generation Kuro, which I took as the 8G Kuro, which yeah made it seem a bit sketchy for a supposed January 2009 write up. Even against the 8G it was rated as comparing favorably, which leads a lot open to interpretation.

Hey, I just read the same website's PRO-111FD review (it was by a different guy), and it was also pretty sketchy. He calibrates it in standard mode, which has a horrible gamma, rather than pure mode. Some of his color points are reasonably off, and they should be near perfect. He measured peak brightness at 29FL, which is low, considering the ISF modes can go >50 without whites clipping.

I've seen much better measurements and reviews. That's for sure.

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post #494 of 603 Old 12-17-2008, 10:05 PM
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I have a strong feeling something is up with their calibration techniques. A ~7200k greyscale and a green point almost out of the park is not something you should end up with on a TV with RGBCYM adjustments in its CMS unless the manufacturer completely dropped the ball (not to say Sharp didn't do just that). It also sounds like it was crushing whites, which is a danger with designing a local dimming TV, but I'd quite like to see the gamma curve the set has to see whether it can be fixed through calibration.

Given the XBR8, A950 and 111FD all come up quite nicely after calibration, and that the Sharp is a significant premium over all three, it needs to do better than that. However, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and assume the fault lies with the calibration, not the TV, for now.
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post #495 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post

Given the XBR8, A950 and 111FD all come up quite nicely after calibration, and that the Sharp is a significant premium over all three, it needs to do better than that. However, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and assume the fault lies with the calibration, not the TV, for now.

Overall the review is in line with reviews made in Germany, that there are problems with the XS-1 in the color tuning area. It was mentioned there that Sharp is still working on the software upgrade so this may get improved. But now the problem with the viewing angle is mentioned too and this may not be correctable.

These problems are obviously very serious only when looking from the high-end point of view and the XS- has its strengths but overall one is coming to the conclusion it is not worth to spend such money buying it as videophile LCD. It seems Sony 55" is more balanced overall.

Question for clarification: The reviews were made for the 52" set, one wonders if the problems are exactly same for the 65"? For example viewing angle?

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post #496 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

But now the problem with the viewing angle is mentioned too and this may not be correctable.

I think that is a known issue with the current generation of local dimming LCDs in general, although the X4500/XBR8 isn't as bad at it as some online comments might make it seem. If wide viewing angles are important then plasmas remain the better option.

Quote:


These problems are obviously very serious only when looking from the high-end point of view and the XS- has its strengths but overall one is coming to the conclusion it is not worth to spend such money buying it as videophile LCD. It seems Sony 55" is more balanced overall.

Perhaps less so in the American market where Sony maintains its price lock, but in Japan and Europe that appears to be the case. The Japanese price comparison website Kakaku paints a pretty stark picture on the matter.
http://kakaku.com/item/20416011019/
http://kakaku.com/item/20415011051/
http://kakaku.com/item/20423514701/

Quote:


Question for clarification: The reviews were made for the 52" set, one wonders if the problems are exactly same for the 65"? For example viewing angle?

I don't see how viewing angle would be effected at all, but more zones on the larger model might reduce any blooming effects somewhat.
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post #497 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post


I don't see how viewing angle would be effected at all, but more zones on the larger model might reduce any blooming effects somewhat.

On a 65" I don't see how you could get a bad viewing angle in a normal single viewing room - I view a 57" Sharp and damn if I can find a bad viewing angle unless I stand right at the side of it. Perhaps if you in a cavernous size monster viewing room but normal size rooms and within THX viewing rec's how this would be possible with 65" makes no sense since I have no bad viewing angles unless I place myself adjacent to the sides of the panel purposely like an idiot.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #498 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 04:37 AM
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This Sharp sounds impressive and was good to hear it was compared to a Kuro. I'm sure many would have liked to hear about it being compared to the 950 and XBR8 also though. Even still, this is a TV for the rich. Even the overly expensive XBR8 (IMO) is a value compared to this TV.
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post #499 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

Call me a skeptic but the article just seems a bit odd to me. It is dated January 2009 but yet they make it sound like Sharp is the first one to use separate RGB LED's, with no mention of the XBR8. Granted I know this is supposed to be about Sharp but they honestly make it sound like no one else is using RGB LED's and they are the first to push this potential.

Doesn't the XBR8 use a single LED to produce the RGB via phosphors? That was my impression from reading articles about it. I think the Sharp is different because it uses separate red, green and blue LEDs not white light or other type.

Don't get me wrong, after having seen the XBR8 in several different settings, I will say it is the most impressive LCD I have seen so far, but I think the LED system is different on the Sharp.

I will also agree with Westa, on a screen that is that big, how do you not have a good viewing angle unless you have stadium seating in your viewing room? How far off the 0 angle do you really watch your TV?
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post #500 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Doesn't the XBR8 use a single LED to produce the RGB via phosphors? That was my impression from reading articles about it. I think the Sharp is different because it uses separate red, green and blue LEDs not white light or other type.

Don't get me wrong, after having seen the XBR8 in several different settings, I will say it is the most impressive LCD I have seen so far, but I think the LED system is different on the Sharp.

I will also agree with Westa, on a screen that is that big, how do you not have a good viewing angle unless you have stadium seating in your viewing room? How far off the 0 angle do you really watch your TV?

No they are using clusters. When it says separate RGB it is just saying instead of white light like on the Samsung 950 that is actually has a RGB separated like the Sony does. I know the Samsung is white phosphor coated LED's but I have never seen any concrete evidence on whether the Sony is using phosphor coated lights.

As for the off angle viewing, personally I don't see it nearly as bad as people on these boards and even the professional reviews, however that isn't to say it isn't there or might be bothersome for some. Obviously if so many people see color wash out and drop off on the XBR8 and the A950 at 55 inches it isn't too far of a stretch to think the 65 inch panels will also suffer degredation. They aren't magically going to be immune to it because of 10 more inches. It just depends how sensitive you are to it.

Once again I don't think it is bad as people make it out to be but it is a little worrysome when reading a review like CNET where they say if you are even 1 seat cushion off from the Samsung 950 that they can notice immediate drop off. All across the board this year people have been let down with LCD viewing angles. It isn't just the LED LCD's either. It has been the WGC-CCFL lights as well. Something changed this year is order to try and push more contrast or to help resolve motion issues. Maybe to try and eliminate clouding, or possibly they just took a step backwards on the panels themselves this year but 2008 seemed to be a step backwards for LCD's and angle viewing issues.
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post #501 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 10:15 AM
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whether someone has or doesn't have viewing angle problems with their current set isn't necessarily relevant to this particular sharp.

as far as calibrating the set...i found it odd that the reviewer mentioned that he couldn't make adjustments beyond some basic ones iirc.

the sony xbr8 backlight clusters are RGGB, i.e. 1 red 2 green 1 blue , which has been well documented. i think if you go to the xbr8 owners thread or perhaps it's the 2008 Bravia thread, you should find an illustration or photo of them.

inanycase, the outlandish price and the mediiocre reviews of this sharp make the sony xbr8 definitely more attractive (and perhaps justify (damnit) sony's msrp pricing (not the pricefixing).

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post #502 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 10:48 AM
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Both the XBR8 and the XS1 use RGB LEDs. The difference is that the XBR8 uses them in a cluster and dims the RGB as a single white zone, while the XS1 dims R separately, G separately and B separately. Obviously the XS1 approach can accomplish a lot more.

The $12K price is exotic no doubt, the real question is what is it going to street for (and not necessarily now but few months down the road). If they can bring the price to a more realistic level ($5-7K), and the reviews come positive - I think this will be a real winner.

I'm disappointed that it doesn't have PiP, but that's just me.
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post #503 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post

Maybe to try and eliminate clouding, or possibly they just took a step backwards on the panels themselves this year but 2008 seemed to be a step backwards for LCD's and angle viewing issues.

It seems that this is may have to do with the increased contrast due to the local dimming. Any type of color change becomes more pronounced.

Viewing angle aside, the color tuning problem is really disqualifying this set.
Maybe it is different with the 65"?

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post #504 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by st_o_p View Post

Both the XBR8 and the XS1 use RGB LEDs. The difference is that the XBR8 uses them in a cluster and dims the RGB as a single white zone, while the XS1 dims R separately, G separately and B separately. Obviously the XS1 approach can accomplish a lot more.

The $12K price is exotic no doubt, the real question is what is it going to street for (and not necessarily now but few months down the road). If they can bring the price to a more realistic level ($5-7K), and the reviews come positive - I think this will be a real winner.

I'm disappointed that it doesn't have PiP, but that's just me.

The problem is, even if the XS1 has a lot of margin (as it appears to have), the XBR8 and Kuro Elite have a lot of margin too. An XS1 for $7k may sound tempting, but would it still sound tempting compared to a $4k 151FD or a $4k XBR8?
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post #505 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by st_o_p View Post

Both the XBR8 and the XS1 use RGB LEDs. The difference is that the XBR8 uses them in a cluster and dims the RGB as a single white zone, while the XS1 dims R separately, G separately and B separately. Obviously the XS1 approach can accomplish a lot more......

not so obviously apparently from the review conclusions about color and brightness control. and what do you mean "...accomplish a lot more..."? a lot more...what?

but anyway...what's the point ? the point i thought was to have a backlight spec'ed to a greyscale D65, whether full on or dimmed, for the best color rendition of the LCD. so why mess around with the white color spectrum ? all that can do is mess up the final color coming from the LCD. which may be exactly the problem.

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post #506 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post

The problem is, even if the XS1 has a lot of margin (as it appears to have), the XBR8 and Kuro Elite have a lot of margin too. An XS1 for $7k may sound tempting, but would it still sound tempting compared to a $4k 151FD or a $4k XBR8?

Very good point, and pretty spot on with the pricing. You are pretty close on the cost for these panels. Sonys always have the most margin.
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post #507 of 603 Old 12-18-2008, 05:02 PM
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and pretty spot on with the pricing. You are pretty close on the cost for these panels.

I've been doing some espionage.
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post #508 of 603 Old 12-19-2008, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by st_o_p View Post


The $12K price is exotic no doubt, the real question is what is it going to street for (and not necessarily now but few months down the road). If they can bring the price to a more realistic level ($5-7K), and the reviews come positive - I think this will be a real winner.

and you shall have it. Some1 at ebay is selling it for $6K as a starting price, and a Buy IT Now at $10.5K

Item no. 120351474650
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post #509 of 603 Old 12-19-2008, 08:56 AM
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Sound & Vision magazine have completed a review (for their January 2009 offering) of the LC-52XSU-S, unfortunately the forum wouldn't allow me to post the link, but if you search under "Sharp LC-52XS1U-S" it takes you there.
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post #510 of 603 Old 12-19-2008, 09:38 AM
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Look at the top of this page for gosh sake
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