SHARP LED-LCD, Anticipation Thread! - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 603 Old 12-22-2008, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Black detail is where LCD needs improvement. I think that the LED driven sets are a little better in this respect than their CCFL cousins, but they can still suffer from "Black Crush" where details in the shadows are gone.

Heh, sounds like really saving words: LED LD sets are way better in the black level dept. and giving Kuros harder time: when pic is completely
black LEDs are real black and Kuros have some residual, on the other hand there is blooming in LCD and none in plasma. Black crush is not a problem with sets like XBR-8 or A9, color is not yet on the level of Kuro.

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post #542 of 603 Old 12-22-2008, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Heh, sounds like really saving words: LED LD sets are way better in the black level dept. and giving Kuros harder time: when pic is completely
black LEDs are real black and Kuros have some residual, on the other hand there is blooming in LCD and none in plasma. Black crush is not a problem with sets like XBR-8 or A9, color is not yet on the level of Kuro.

It isn't that they have issues with black detail (because they have a ruler flat gamma), but it is they have issues with LED crosstalk. In a starfield, the zones see the black of space so they dim completely, but then the stars completely disappear. I've seen this happen numerous times, and there is a decent thread in the FP forum.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...924&highlight=

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post #543 of 603 Old 12-22-2008, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

It isn't that they have issues with black detail (because they have a ruler flat gamma), but it is they have issues with LED crosstalk. In a starfield, the zones see the black of space so they dim completely, but then the stars completely disappear. I've seen this happen numerous times, and there is a decent thread in the FP forum.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...924&highlight=

Part of the challenge in designing a local dimming algorithm is in balancing the amount of backlight dimming vs. the amount of pixel level compensation so that highlight detail isn't lost. Probably the biggest weakness of the XBR8 is that some stars in a starfield actually disappear because their isn't enough compensation.

But as this is a software issue, it's something that'll improve over time as the improve local dimming algorithms. It's not a hardware impossibility.
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post #544 of 603 Old 12-22-2008, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Carled View Post

Part of the challenge in designing a local dimming algorithm is in balancing the amount of backlight dimming vs. the amount of pixel level compensation so that highlight detail isn't lost. Probably the biggest weakness of the XBR8 is that some stars in a starfield actually disappear because their isn't enough compensation.

But as this is a software issue, it's something that'll improve over time as the improve local dimming algorithms. It's not a hardware impossibility.

mmm, maybe. don't you think it has a lot (or most) to do with the limited number of LED clusters vs. the number of LCD's (1920 x 1080 = 2 073 600) ?

i'm sure software can be improved, but without the increase in LED's, me thinks only so much can be done that way.

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post #545 of 603 Old 12-22-2008, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVbc View Post

mmm, maybe. don't you think it has a lot (or most) to do with the limited number of LED clusters vs. the number of LCD's (1920 x 1080 = 2 073 600) ?

i'm sure software can be improved, but without the increase in LED's, me thinks only so much can be done that way.

TVbc

Sure, you can decrease the block size, but if you have a 1-2 square pixel sized bright spot, there is only going to be so much difference from dropping the block size from, say, 250 square pixels down to 50 square pixels. The block is still much larger. The only solution is to be able to make the highlights brighter to compensate for the lower backlight, or to not dim the backlight as much and not have as low black levels.

Local dimming will never be a miracle cure no matter how many clusters there are, and it would be unwise to expect that one day there will be LD LCDs that are better in every way than a plasma.
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post #546 of 603 Old 12-22-2008, 07:58 PM
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To me the best whites are to be had when you turn the white level way down. The power supply running out of juice and throttling back the brightness causes that effect, there's nothing wrong with the phosphors or anything.

I will agree that there is a limit to how bright it should be, but a white should look white. It should not be done at the expense of details in the bright areas, but dim whites I can't live with.
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post #547 of 603 Old 12-23-2008, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post

....Local dimming will never be a miracle cure no matter how many clusters there are, and it would be unwise to expect that one day there will be LD LCDs that are better in every way than a plasma.

Eh, surely there will be LD LCDs practically better than plasma, LCD tech is progressing amazingly. The stars problem is really nit-picking. Now one can start talking about plasma rainbows effects which some see and some not.

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post #548 of 603 Old 12-23-2008, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Eh, surely there will be LD LCDs practically better than plasma, LCD tech is progressing amazingly.

Overall better? Sure. But better in every single last aspect of picture quality? No, that isn't at all likely.

Quote:


The stars problem is really nit-picking.

I happen to quite like science fiction. It is not nit-picking.

Quote:


Now one can start talking about plasma rainbows effects which some see and some not.

Well yes, every technology has flaws. Being overly partisan will just keep you from getting the most enjoyment for yourself.
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post #549 of 603 Old 12-23-2008, 09:46 AM
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comeon...pleazzze...there is more than enough lcd vs. plasma on this forum.

for this thread, i'd really like someone to point to some 'outside' documentation in english about the sharp led backlight technology, because so far i am not buying that the backlight image (shown above) is actually the backlight image, i.e. the light source for the lcd's.

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post #550 of 603 Old 12-23-2008, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post

Overall better? Sure. But better in every single last aspect of picture quality? No, that isn't at all likely.

What was written was practically better. Meaning not all aspects but all practical aspects .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post

I happen to quite like science fiction. It is not nit-picking.
Well yes, every technology has flaws. Being overly partisan will just keep you from getting the most enjoyment for yourself.

Everybody agrees that this year LD LED LCD has proper reference only in top-of-the-line Kuros. Let´s see what will be shown at the 2009 CES.

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post #551 of 603 Old 12-23-2008, 09:55 AM
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Copied from another thread:

a pro calibration would entail more than adjusting the settings available via the user menu; i.e. the calibrator would open the service menu.

I wonder if adjusting via service menu was the case for people having pro cal on the XS-1?

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post #552 of 603 Old 12-23-2008, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVbc View Post

for this thread, i'd really like someone to point to some 'outside' documentation in english about the sharp led backlight technology, because so far i am not buying that the backlight image (shown above) is actually the backlight image, i.e. the light source for the lcd's.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that image was doctored, as the television industry pulls that sort of crap all the time. Having said that, I'm not suggesting there's any evidence that the backlight doesn't have colour dimming.


Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

What was written was practically better. Meaning not all aspects but all practical aspects .

It's just that your point didn't follow on from my own, yet you still quoted me. I was assuming you were just misreading what I said.

LED LCDs are already functionally comparable to good plasmas (although as to whether they are indeed better is a subjective assessment; I would be more likely to disagree than agree personally), but they have a long road ahead of them before plasmas stop being competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Copied from another thread:

a pro calibration would entail more than adjusting the settings available via the user menu; i.e. the calibrator would open the service menu.

I wonder if adjusting via service menu was the case for people having pro cal on the XS-1?

I wouldn't imagine there is a second CMS in the service menu, given the user menu control already has RGBCYM gain, hue and saturation controls. That's more than most TVs have, even including service menu controls.
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post #553 of 603 Old 12-25-2008, 02:55 AM
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since this LED LCD, does it has any annoying cooling fan built in at the back? Because the Samsung 30" LED LCD, has 2 cooling fan, and I don't know if they are noisy or not, and I don't know what happens if these fans fails.

SO for those who own this unit, does it has a cooling fan(s)
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post #554 of 603 Old 01-04-2009, 02:00 AM
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OK, I am here in Japan and staying just across the street from a BIC camera store. For those of you who don't know what one is, this one is 6 stories of electronics, computers, TVs, cameras, even stereo equipment. Just picture a BB on steroids.

I went in and looked at the TV floor and they have a XS-1 in the 65 and 52 inch sizes. Nearby is the XBR8 equivalent (same set, model number is different).

With the Sharp provided demo BD playing, I will say that it is very impressive. It is more impressive than the XBR8. Me and my buddy could not see any issue with viewing angle or blooming. This is the best LCD that I have seen yet, with the 8 close behind.

Interesting that the price here even with the strong value of the Yen now is still a little lower than what it was being retailed at in the US. The 65" would be about $14K (estimate) with todays Yen/Dollar price.

For Happy Hopping, no I did not see any cooling fans, but I did not look to much at the back. Normally I would notice something like that though.
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post #555 of 603 Old 01-04-2009, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post


Interesting that the price here even with the strong value of the Yen now is still a little lower than what it was being retailed at in the US. The 65" would be about $14K (estimate) with todays Yen/Dollar price.


WAAAAYYYYYY cheaper on Amazon Japan and Rakuten to the tune of 4 or so thousand dollars. Only boneheads and tourists buy stuf from Bic, Sakuraya, or Yodobashi.
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post #556 of 603 Old 01-04-2009, 03:27 AM
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WAAAAYYYYYY cheaper on Amazon Japan and Rakuten to the tune of 4 or so thousand dollars. Only boneheads and tourists buy stuf from Bic, Sakuraya, or Yodobashi.

The price AJ have it for looks to be about ¥100k more than the best prices on Kakaku.
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post #557 of 603 Old 01-04-2009, 01:02 PM
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WAAAAYYYYYY cheaper on Amazon Japan and Rakuten to the tune of 4 or so thousand dollars. Only boneheads and tourists buy stuf from Bic, Sakuraya, or Yodobashi.

Probably true, but it is a cool place to go and look.

I was told by a friend here in Japan that the price you see at BIC camera is only the starting point and you can negotiate with them.
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post #558 of 603 Old 01-04-2009, 07:52 PM
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Set sounds great! I'm sorry if this has been addressed already: Is it a matte screen or does it have lots of glare?

Please say there's no glare...

Thanks
-Tim
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post #559 of 603 Old 01-05-2009, 04:44 AM
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Set sounds great! I'm sorry if this has been addressed already: Is it a matte screen or does it have lots of glare?

Please say there's no glare...

Thanks
-Tim

Looks like a matte screen to me. It was in a brightly lit room as well and no glare.
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post #560 of 603 Old 01-06-2009, 03:47 AM
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I too would agree that the screens appears to not glar like a mirror. Most Japanese LCD's have a matte screen.

-Break

Sometimes at the B&M superstores in Japan, actually most always, you get 10-20% in points on your "point card" This translates to a 10-20% discount, but you have to spend your points at the named retailer.

-Break

The control box looks almost identical to the Sharp blu-ray player. It looks very clean.
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post #561 of 603 Old 01-07-2009, 04:46 AM
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What is the dimension of the box? I need the length and the width?

Also, w/ Deflation and Great Depression coming as speak, Sharp really has the guts to hold on to this price level
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post #562 of 603 Old 01-07-2009, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post

Also, w/ Deflation and Great Depression coming as speak, Sharp really has the guts to hold on to this price level

"Guts" wouldn't be my choice of adjective...
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post #563 of 603 Old 01-07-2009, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post

What is the dimension of the box? I need the length and the width?

Also, w/ Deflation and Great Depression coming as speak, Sharp really has the guts to hold on to this price level

I don't see any of the present LED prices keeping up - neither the XS1 or the XBR8 or even the 950. With under $2K 55" LED Vizio on its way and Samsung releasing next-gen slim LEDs, I sense a sharp price drop coming for the 55" LED LCD category. I'm glad I held off and didn't buy yet - there'll be a lot of choice in the upcoming months and prices have nowhere to go but sharply down
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post #564 of 603 Old 01-07-2009, 06:53 PM
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Ditto. The 94U was going for $12K when it first came out. In the end, the price is about $5K or so currently. Buying it at the first round of list price isn't the way I want to spend money
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post #565 of 603 Old 01-07-2009, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post

Ditto. The 94U was going for $12K when it first came out. In the end, the price is about $5K or so currently. Buying it at the first round of list price isn't the way I want to spend money

I've been hoping that this is the case (as I have a few issues with the X4500/XBR8, but would really like an RGB LED set), but it strikes me that the price really hasn't moved anywhere near as much, as quickly, as the Sharp 94 did.

The graphs on Kakaku seem to back that up. Compare how the price has declined to the Pioneer 600A over the same period.



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post #566 of 603 Old 01-10-2009, 06:07 AM
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what models are the graph comparing? What's a 65V?
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post #567 of 603 Old 01-10-2009, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
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what models are the graph comparing? What's a 65V?

Sharp 65XS1 vs Pioneer 600M (sort of equivalent to the US 151FD). "65V" is Japanese shorthand for '65" diagonal'.
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post #568 of 603 Old 01-13-2009, 06:24 AM
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So I went back for a second look on the day we left. It was something to do before we caught the train out of Nagoya to Osaka.

Again I am impressed by the color, seeming lack of blooming and viewing angle. We did check out the Kuro display while we were there as well and I think that the XS-1 is still very comparable. The difference is that the Kuro section was set up for plasma display, there were black curtains surrounding the area to make it darker and reduce reflections, the XS-1 was right out there in the lights at a position where it was the first thing that you would see at the top of the escalator when you reached that floor.
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post #569 of 603 Old 01-13-2009, 09:29 AM
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Finally saw these at CES. They were nice and sharp will have the largest LED for sale to standard customers. Still very few in the US. Hard to beleive they want so much for these.
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post #570 of 603 Old 01-13-2009, 10:18 AM
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Finally saw these at CES. They were nice and sharp will have the largest LED for sale to standard customers. Still very few in the US. Hard to beleive they want so much for these.

Too bad you didn't grill Sharp's staff about any potential price drops.
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