Samsung LNxxA630 AMP-Stuck-on bug found... - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 44 Old 03-10-2009, 01:25 AM
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I recently performed some input lag tests on this set which gave me much higher numbers than the A650 and other similar Samsung models are receiving. Do you think you could post a step by step guide on how to engage the bug (so AMP is stuck on in PC mode), and how to disable the bug (turning AMP off) so I can do a few more in-depth tests? I'd like to see if the higher numbers i'm seeing are because of a hardware difference, or this bug you may have found in the firmware.
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post #32 of 44 Old 03-10-2009, 10:52 AM
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The new 650 is setup and I have been running it through its paces during the weekend. First off I would like to say that the AMP bug is gone. I am using HDMI 1 and have not tested PC Mode yet. What really impresses me is the overall increase in image quality. My 630 also had noticeable ghosting that is totally gone with the 650. The gloss of the screen is also not as bad as I though. I would prefer a slightly more matte screen but this one of the only downsides.

The only other thing I dont like is the remote. I think the round circle thing that you use like an IPOD to navigate is dumb and I find the menus less responsive then with the 630.

For the question about testing the AMP bug on the 630, it is very easy. First connect the tv to the pc using HDMI-1 in normal mode. Then turn AMP to off and measure. Turn off the TV and then turn it on; AMP should be on even though its reporting off in the menu. To disable it, turn it on in the menu and then back off.

To test PC mode use HDMI-2 and select PC as the name. The setting for AMP should not be available but I have found if the TV is powered down then AMP will be ON when it is turned back on. You might need to change refresh rates.
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post #33 of 44 Old 03-10-2009, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacc1234 View Post

To test PC mode use HDMI-2 and select PC as the name. The setting for AMP should not be available but I have found if the TV is powered down then AMP will be ON when it is turned back on. You might need to change refresh rates.

Good to hear about the 650! Wish we had some f/w updates for the 630, alas, will probably never happen lol.

I have to disagree with using PC Mode/HDMI2 that powering off and back on will have AMP come back. This has never happened to me (while using PC Mode on HDMI2 only) - but, this DOES happen when using HDMI 1 or 3 and turning AMP off...you power the TV off and on again, and AMP is magically back on when it's still set to "Off." HDMI2/PC mode cured this bug completely for me.

As far as ghosting on your 630 - I have never experienced this. My LCD monitor also has a 4ms response time (like the 630) - I get virtually the same amount of "ghosting/motion blur" as my monitor.

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post #34 of 44 Old 03-10-2009, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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So to summarize:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacc1234 View Post

For the question about testing the AMP bug on the 630, it is very easy. First connect the tv to the pc using HDMI-1 in normal mode. Then turn AMP to off and measure. Turn off the TV and then turn it on; AMP should be on even though its reporting off in the menu. To disable it, turn it on in the menu and then back off.

^ This is correct. Keep in mind this "bug" only seems to appear when using a PC, it won't show up using a TV/game console for some strange reason (which I suppose is good). For testing purposes, name this connection something besides "PC" (although in the past, even when I used my PC on HDMI1 or 3 named to "PC", AMP still gets stuck on)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacc1234 View Post

To test PC mode use HDMI-2 and select PC as the name. The setting for AMP should not be available but I have found if the TV is powered down then AMP will be ON when it is turned back on.

^ In my experience, this is incorrect. Using HDMI2/PC name, the AMP bug is totally gone for me; to this day it has never turned itself magically on, it stays off (and grayed out as off), even if I power down/power up the TV again. YMMV, but this has been a complete fix for me.

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Originally Posted by jacc1234 View Post

You might need to change refresh rates.

^ Sometimes changing refresh rates and/or resolutions will indeed bring the AMP bug back, but it seems hit-or-miss. Fiddle with your refresh rates and resolutions, then set them back to 1920x1080x60hz. AMP may or may not be on - the easiest way to tell if it's stuck on is to move the mouse around the TV screen slowly (preferably against a solid black background), if you see pixel anomalies (white dots) around your mouse when it's in motion (look hard), then AMP is stuck on. To fix, simply power off/power on the TV again, and it should stay off.

Let me know what you find, ODB. And by the way, where do you get this lag-testing program that everyone seems to be using? I'd like to run some tests myself and post the results.

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post #35 of 44 Old 03-10-2009, 07:39 PM
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I decided to take the time to try and find out everything I could about this AMP bug.

It definitely exists, and is easy as pie to reproduce and test.

At first I turned my TV on in PC mode and couldn't replicate the bug. Scrolling through forums and moving the mouse around was as smooth and responsive as it should've been, without any AMP artifacting when I moved the mouse around. However, I renamed HDMI2 to something else, turned my TV off, then back on. Instantly I could tell AMP was on, just by scrolling through these very forums. I enabled game mode and scrolled again - AMP was definitely still on. As a final test, I renamed HDMI2 to PC and scrolled through the forums again - shockingly, amp was still on!. This means two things - the bug doesn't occur if you start the TV in PC or game mode, otherwise it occurs every time you turn the TV on. You can also disable AMP by going into the menu, turning it on, then back off.

What does this mean for the input lag report I made? The numbers I posted may be inaccurate, as AMP very well may have been on the entire time. This would provide a handy explanation as to why the set seemed so laggy compared to the A650, regardless of cables or configuration. Unfortunately, even if this proves to be the case - this model is nearly a year old and has yet to receive a firmware update to correct the issue. With the '09 models just around the corner, in all likelihood it will never be corrected unless a lot of people complain to Samsung about it.

I will perform my tests in standard mode over HDMI and in PC mode over HDMI, while taking steps to ensure that AMP is definitely off. If the numbers are any different, I will re-do the entire test and post the pictures. If you'd like to test out your set, id0l, they are available at this page http://tft.vanity.dk/
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post #36 of 44 Old 03-10-2009, 09:25 PM
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So it turns out that the AMP bug was the entire reason I was getting high delay compared to the A650.

To put it plainly, the A630 and A650 have similar input lag. The AMP bug was active the entire time I was testing the TV in my last post. here is my new post containing my new results after defeating the AMP bug.
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post #37 of 44 Old 03-23-2009, 07:11 PM
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I finally got an e-mail back from Samsung regarding the AMP bug. They believed the set may have been stuck in "Store mode", which resets everything to the defaults every 30 minutes or so. I knew this wasn't the case, however.

I followed their instructions to do a complete reset of the TV, which allowed me to reselect home mode and did some testing again. The bug persists even if you leave everything at their defaults. I came to another conclusion, however.

Unless you turn the TV on in "PC Mode" or "Game Mode", AMP image processing is stuck on!

You can start the TV in PC or Game mode and disable either mode or switch to another source, and it will stay off. However, if for whatever reason you turn AMP back on, it is stuck on again. Of course, the only way to turn it back off is to enable game/pc mode, turn your TV off, and then back on. Annoying!
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post #38 of 44 Old 03-23-2009, 08:13 PM
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Just got off the phone with tech support. The guy I spoke with seemed to know what he was talking about, and unlike most tech's he spoke english rather well and didn't seem to be reading from a script. Unfortunately, once I mentioned that the issue is easier to notice when using a PC source, blame was shifted towards both my cables and my hardware, and he reccommended I try testing it again with different cables/hardware. Once he came to that conclusion, he read from a script a list of "no duh" troubleshooting steps, gave me a reference number and told me to call back once I can confirm the issue is not with my hardware and not exclusive to a PC source.

Unfortunately, it seems that unless somebody else who is experiencing the issue calls tech support and goes through the same song and dance, they'll likely assume one of two things: My PC/consoles/cables/etc are defective and it is not their problem, or it is a hardware defect and they'll want to service or replace my TV. I'd rather not deal with shipping or transporting this behemoth again when there's enough evidence in this thread alone to suggest the issue is a bug in the firmware.
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post #39 of 44 Old 04-15-2009, 09:54 AM
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Well, I don't know if I should be happy or not I found this thread... I was getting ready to pull the trigger on a 52-inch 630, which I plan on using as a monitor for text work (and a lot!), and now I'm hesitating. I have a couple of questions to help me understand what I just read here:

1. I plan on switching between PC and TV in real time, e.g. working on my desktop, then switching to the TV input to watch some TV, then back to my desktop. Do I understand it right that every time I switch to TV input (where I want AMP On) and then back to my PC input, the AMP will remain on?

2. It seems like, per the instructions given in this thread, that cycling the power should turn the AMP off again once I'm back on the PC input. However, it seems one person in this thread reported having a set that does not respond to this trick. Cycling the power is tolerable, but going to the menus to turn AMP off every time I switch inputs is not!!

3. This discussion focused on the HDMI input. Does anyone know if the AMP bug is also present for the VGA input?? (I'm not sure which one I end up using for my PC. My docking station has a DVI out, but the laptop itself does not... I'm suspicious of the digital signal quality I'm gonna get from the dock, so may have to fall back to VGA)...
Thanks!
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post #40 of 44 Old 06-24-2009, 08:19 AM
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I'm happy I ran across this thread. I have an LN52A630 (M1FXZC) version SQ01. I use it primarily with an HTPC running WinXP on the HDMI2/DVI input.

I actually never knew you could set it to 'PC' to bypass most processing. However up to this point most of the material I watched was quite nice, usually even with AMP on low. I don't know if it was doing much but think I forgot it on low for a months and didn't notice anything that bad.

I'd probably left it this way as it worked great with HD material (720 or 1080 source). Where I started to fool around, and ran across this thread, is on some lower resolution material (704x400 to be precise) that had quite a few challenging pans and scrolls. I notice that these tended to jerk every few hundred ms or so. Turning AMP off didn't seem to correct it completely. Of course setting the input to PC did the trick. The sad part is that AMP did make the scrolling/panning smoother and better except when there were the jerks.

What I don't seem to see is AMP getting "stuck" on when viewing an input with AMP processing (eg. my cable STB) and then switching to the HTPC input set to 'PC'. When I switch, AMP *seems* to be truly off. Of course just setting it to 'OFF' if it was available did not seem to work which is why I found this thread. So in summary I don't *think* I have to power cycle my set to turn AMP off when switching to a processing disabled 'PC' input.

One other thing occurs to me. There definitely seems to be an effect when switching AMP levels if they are available. Is it possible that the perception that AMP cannot be completely turned off is incorrect. Rather the artifacts left are a function of other processing, or even just having the signal going through that more processing intensive code, that is is otherwise bypassed when an input is set to 'PC'?
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post #41 of 44 Old 06-24-2009, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryle Tilroe View Post

...challenging pans and scrolls. I notice that these tended to jerk every few hundred ms or so. Turning AMP off didn't seem to correct it completely. Of course setting the input to PC did the trick.

I'm going to retract this a bit, and perhaps go against the grain of this thread.

In doing some more tests, turning AMP off (when not in PC mode and it is available), it *does* work. I was testing during a segment with some pans and with the progress bar displayed in WMP the effect is quite clear. With AMP on low the bar flickered a bit when the pan went by as the AMP processing fooled around with the local pixels. With AMP off the progress bar is rock steady.

Perhaps what people are seeing is some of the other processing, such as what I suggested at the end of my above post:

Quote:


One other thing occurs to me. There definitely seems to be an effect when switching AMP levels if they are available. Is it possible that the perception that AMP cannot be completely turned off is incorrect. Rather the artifacts left are a function of other processing, or even just having the signal going through that more processing intensive code, that is is otherwise bypassed when an input is set to 'PC'?

Of course the latency numbers observed might be due to a minor bug where the signal goes through the AMP code, but is not significantly altered, when it should have bypassed that function.

In the end for me AMP helps or does not cause problems except in some circumstances: medium resolution pans and scrolls that perhaps have some jumps in the source material. In this latter case the pans/scrolls are broadly improved but there are distracting jumps or jerks, possibly in the source and exaggerated or at least thrown into sharp contrast by the otherwise smooth sections.
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post #42 of 44 Old 06-25-2009, 08:35 AM
 
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So the ONLY way to truly have AMP off is to connect my PS3 to HDMI2\\DVI, labeled as PC, and then turn on Game mode?
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post #43 of 44 Old 05-27-2012, 10:38 AM
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Bumping this thread.. I know this TV is kinda old now but it's served me well for a couple of years but i'm wondering why Samsung never released a firmware update for this TV and only fixed this bug for the A650.. having to cycle the TV off and on to get rid of AMP all the time is kind of annoying. Do you think that if I complained to Samsung they'd do anything?
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post #44 of 44 Old 05-31-2012, 02:28 PM
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Anyone?
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