Samsung LNxxA650 Gamer's (Input Lag) Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 663 Old 01-26-2009, 09:34 PM
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Gmanvbva

When you do try it out can you tell us what you settings you use for the game thanks
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post #182 of 663 Old 01-26-2009, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJPapi1977 View Post

I actually love the graphics with vga...i have vga but dont use it since i have hdmi but vga is nice for graphics...just sucks that it kills my surrouns sound set up which i cant do with vga on 360

but graphics wise it is nice

That is good to hear. But, does vga allow for AMP? This is one of the big selling points for me as I enjoy the look of AMP (through HDMI) on some games on a friend's older 120hz Samsung model. If not, does it work for component? I have those cables too but know nothing of component quality (have never used it).
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post #183 of 663 Old 01-26-2009, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfire01 View Post

That is good to hear. But, does vga allow for AMP? This is one of the big selling points for me as I enjoy the look of AMP (through HDMI) on some games on a friend's older 120hz Samsung model. If not, does it work for component? I have those cables too but know nothing of component quality (have never used it).

VGA does not allow AMP and that is why it's lag free. 120hz mode is what's making the lag. I LOVE AMP... Except for the lag.

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post #184 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynn View Post

VGA does not allow AMP and that is why it's lag free. 120hz mode is what's making the lag. I LOVE AMP... Except for the lag.

Just to clarify a common misnomer:

120hz does not equal AMP.

All incoming resolutions are displayed at 1080p @ 120hz. Frame interpolation ("AMP") is available because of the 120hz frequency... but AMP can be turned on and off -- 120hz can't.

120hz does not cause lag. The processing of the signal is what delays the video, and the frame interpolation of AMP uses the most processing, adding the most lag.

"Game mode" on this set turns off most processing of the signal, eliminating most of the lag.

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post #185 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 05:58 AM
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I have a Xbox Elite so I have HDMI, I prefer to use VGA, The picture was almost as detailed as HDMI 2/PC but felt like it had less lag. Also the colors appeared to be more vivid. This is just my opinion, I did not do any tests, all that really matters is that you like the results and I am extremely happy. I found a Microsoft VGA cable for $30 it allows you to hook up a fiber optic cable and also provides you with a left and right RCA cable for stereo. I use the fiber optic for my receiver, and the stereo for the TV. A nice feature about VGA is that it frees up an extra HDMI port. I run DirecTV, Apple TV, and Blu-Ray all independently to the TV, the big feature of this is it gives me audio at the TV.
I then use fiber optic from the DirecTV HDDVR, and the Apple TV and analog 7.1 for the Blu-Ray to hook up to my receiver for surround sound. I ran another fiber optic cable from my TV digital out to my receiver for over the air channels and PIP. This setup requires a lot of extra cables but gives you the ability to calibrate each source independently and allows you to be able to use surround sound or the TV speakers. My receiver is HDMI capable but the PQ was not as good as my current configuration, and I lost the ability to optimize settings for each source. All that is left is to program my Harmony 1000 remote and enjoy my system.
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post #186 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post

Just to clarify a common misnomer:

120hz does not equal AMP.

All incoming resolutions are displayed at 1080p @ 120hz. Frame interpolation ("AMP") is available because of the 120hz frequency... but AMP can be turned on and off -- 120hz can't.

120hz does not cause lag. The processing of the signal is what delays the video, and the frame interpolation of AMP uses the most processing, adding the most lag.

"Game mode" on this set turns off most processing of the signal, eliminating most of the lag.

The normal operating mode of the TV is 120hz. AMP off or on full does not change results. The only way to play without lag is to use the 60hz options of PC mode or VGA. Entertainment mode "game" lessens lag but does not get rid of it. 120hz represents this TV's ability to double a 60hz frame rate. It is not a native 120hz device and can't accept true 120hz signals as far as any tests show.

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post #187 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynn View Post

The normal operating mode of the TV is 120hz. AMP off or on full does not change results. The only way to play without lag is to use the 60hz options of PC mode or VGA. Entertainment mode "game" lessens lag but does not get rid of it. 120hz represents this TV's ability to double a 60hz frame rate. It is not a native 120hz device and can't accept true 120hz signals as far as any tests show.

Just to clarify, I agree with all of the above. The statement I was referring to was when you said "120hz mode is what's making the lag." I think the bolded is a confusing term.

This TV is always in 120hz mode. This TV accepts 24, 30/60hz inputs and displays them all at 120hz with even cadence. It doesn't matter if AMP is on or off.

120hz doesn't equal AMP, and using the term "120hz mode" might cause confusion.

Please correct me if I'm wrong or not understanding what you meant. And thanks for your testing, explanations and effort in this thread.

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post #188 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 08:56 AM
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So if AMP will not be an option for me (I have no HDMI devices... except for my computer which I would also be using this tv for) should I just stick with a cheaper model? Sorry if this is the wrong thread to ask this in, but I want to have the best option for my vga or component connected xbox 360. I am assuming the xbox would look and play better on the 650 than it would on a 550. Of course it would not hurt if I had these unused features (120hz and AMP) for feature investments
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post #189 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by newfire01 View Post

So if AMP will not be an option for me (I have no HDMI devices... except for my computer which I would also be using this tv for) should I just stick with a cheaper model? Sorry if this is the wrong thread to ask this in, but I want to have the best option for my vga or component connected xbox 360. I am assuming the xbox would look and play better on the 650 than it would on a 550. Of course it would not hurt if I had these unused features (120hz and AMP) for feature investments

The Samsung 6 series has an improved display panel with better contrast ratio. That alone warrants a recommendation over the 550 IMO, but if that's not worth around $4-500 or so to you is your call.

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post #190 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 12:06 PM
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First off this thread is awesome, pretty much read the whole thing but still have a question or two.

I have both a 360 and ps3, use the 360 for the majority of my gaming. The 360 is a non hdmi model so im currently using component cables and game mode with it. It looks, for the most part, pretty awesome. I dont like the fact that i cant tweak hardly ANYTHING in the game mode setting. I personally havent noticed any lag in Gow2 or Fifa 09 while using game mode. My issue is im not entirely happy with the color and brightness of the mode as well as the fact that you also CANT ADJUST SOUND SETTINGS! That last part is highly annoying. I understand the picture, but sound? WTF?

I am thinking of going the VGA route, but want to know is it worth spending the 40 dollars or so on the adapter for my minor issues i have? You can adjust a lot more settings with the vga adapter correct? What about sound settings?

As for my ps3, i have it hooked up and use game mode and have no issues with it, any reason to put in the pc mode hdmi? From what i gather only a few games can even use that mode anyways.
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post #191 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilik64 View Post

I am thinking of going the VGA route, but want to know is it worth spending the 40 dollars or so on the adapter for my minor issues i have? You can adjust a lot more settings with the vga adapter correct? What about sound settings?

I don't have an answer, but you can go the VGA route on your 360 for $6.75 plus shipping.

I'm thinking about getting one of those, just to try it out.

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post #192 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 12:17 PM
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You, sir, are awesome.

Done and Done.

I have 2 hdmi cables from mono that were like 4 bucks a piece, work just fine. Hopefully this el cheapo vga adapter will work just great too!
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post #193 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kilik64 View Post

You, sir, are awesome.

Done and Done.

I have 2 hdmi cables from mono that were like 4 bucks a piece, work just fine. Hopefully this el cheapo vga adapter will work just great too!

My PS3's HDMI and my Blu-ray player's 7.1 analog out cables have come from Mono... all quality stuff and very inexpensive.

I'm haven't tried that VGA cable, but its an inexpensive gamble. I hope its worth it! Please post back in this thread when you test it out.

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post #194 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post

I don't have an answer, but you can go the VGA route on your 360 for $6.75 plus shipping.

I'm thinking about getting one of those, just to try it out.

I wouldn't trust that many complained about unreliable picture and picture quality being good one minute and bad the next. Only trust microsoft's official vga cable or monster 360 branded vga cable. Whichever one of those is cheaper get it.

Hdmi's that's another story lol... monoprice hdmi cables for the win!!!

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post #195 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 01:02 PM
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what a shame, if thats true. Oh well for 12 bucks shipped i can at least get a feel for what vga will be like and go for the M$ official ones if i need/want to.
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post #196 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kilik64 View Post

what a shame, if thats true. Oh well for 12 bucks shipped i can at least get a feel for what vga will be like and go for the M$ official ones if i need/want to.

There are a lot of glowing reviews for that cable too. The main complaint is it doesn't include a 60 cent audio splitter.

If it sucks, post here and I'll split the $12 cost with you via PayPal because you would have saved me money from ordering one.

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post #197 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kilik64 View Post

what a shame, if thats true. Oh well for 12 bucks shipped i can at least get a feel for what vga will be like and go for the M$ official ones if i need/want to.

It wouldn't hurt I guess to at least get to see what it would look like... the problems associated by cheap vga cables is ghosting, artifacts of such and should be noticeable.

One thing to remember while in vga or hdmi2/pc that it is on the blurry side some like it some hate it for gaming. I hate it but even though the sharpness is at 20 or 50 depending on what mode is being used that its like if it's running with edge enhancement off with sharpness at 0 or worse when you compare it to custom setting with the above mentioned change.

I also noticed more and more that 50 or 20 sharpness while in hdmi2/pc mode that there was no difference. In custom setting and move it from 20 to 50 there is a difference. So if you noticed it kinda of washed out and blurry that's how it pc mode looks its not the cable.

That's why I said to try out game mode and pc mode and see which one looks better to one's own eyes for a certain game that is being used. Many neglect game mode because backlight cant be changed but it could changed by the Energy Saver Mode lol.

Halo 3 and Call of Duty 4 looks better in Game Mode with Energy Saver Mode at low or medium than using HDMI2/PC.

SuperStreetFighter2 Turbo HD Remix looks better in HDMI2/PC than Game Mode with low or medium energy saver mode. It depends on the game is what I noticed, but i dont notice lag so it dont matter i use my custom setting anyways lol...

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post #198 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

It wouldn't hurt I guess to at least get to see what it would look like... the problems associated by cheap vga cables is ghosting, artifacts of such and should be noticeable.

One thing to remember while in vga or hdmi2/pc that it is on the blurry side some like it some hate it for gaming. I hate it but even though the sharpness is at 20 or 50 depending on what mode is being used that its like if it's running with edge enhancement off with sharpness at 0 or worse when you compare it to custom setting with the above mentioned change.

I also noticed more and more that 50 or 20 sharpness while in hdmi2/pc mode that there was no difference. In custom setting and move it from 20 to 50 there is a difference. So if you noticed it kinda of washed out and blurry that's how it pc mode looks its not the cable.

That's why I said to try out game mode and pc mode and see which one looks better to one's own eyes for a certain game that is being used. Many neglect game mode because backlight cant be changed but it could changed by the Energy Saver Mode lol.

Halo 3 and Call of Duty 4 looks better in Game Mode with Energy Saver Mode at low or medium than using HDMI2/PC.

SuperStreetFighter2 Turbo HD Remix looks better in HDMI2/PC than Game Mode with low or medium energy saver mode. It depends on the game is what I noticed, but i dont notice lag so it dont matter i use my custom setting anyways lol...



The problem with game mode for me at least is that it's too dark and adjusting the energy saver settings only make it darker. I'm gaming on a PS3 and my primary interest right now is Socom: Confrontation. I'm hoping HDMI2/Pc fixes my issue. I do have a new question for whomever but because Socom supports 1080p will I still have all that lag after I get the HDMI in regular mode? I'm not exactly HD savvy and this is my first LCD. I imagine I'll still need to go the HDMI2 route or game mode but wasn't sure so I figured I'd ask.....
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post #199 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynn View Post

VGA does not allow AMP and that is why it's lag free. 120hz mode is what's making the lag. I LOVE AMP... Except for the lag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post

Just to clarify a common misnomer:

120hz does not equal AMP.

All incoming resolutions are displayed at 1080p @ 120hz. Frame interpolation ("AMP") is available because of the 120hz frequency... but AMP can be turned on and off -- 120hz can't.

120hz does not cause lag. The processing of the signal is what delays the video, and the frame interpolation of AMP uses the most processing, adding the most lag.

"Game mode" on this set turns off most processing of the signal, eliminating most of the lag.

To further clarify, in all my testing turning AMP on/off had NO NOTICEABLE impact on input lag. People assume the lag is produced by the AMP processing but my testing does not support this in any way.
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post #200 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snatch98 View Post

The problem with game mode for me at least is that it's too dark and adjusting the energy saver settings only make it darker. I'm gaming on a PS3 and my primary interest right now is Socom: Confrontation. I'm hoping HDMI2/Pc fixes my issue. I do have a new question for whomever but because Socom supports 1080p will I still have all that lag after I get the HDMI in regular mode? I'm not exactly HD savvy and this is my first LCD. I imagine I'll still need to go the HDMI2 route or game mode but wasn't sure so I figured I'd ask.....

From the first post.

HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.

Average lag: 6-15ms
0.3-1 frame delay.
Average FD: 0.6 Frame (~half a frame)
59.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.

Average lag: 15-25ms
1-2 Frame delay.
Average FD: 1.5 Frame
58.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.
(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

Average lag: 50-60ms
3-4 frame delay
Average FD: 3.5 Frame
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

Average Lag: 50-60ms
3-4 frame delay
Average FD: 3.5 Frame
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)
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post #201 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post

From the first post.

HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.

Average lag: 6-15ms
0.3-1 frame delay.
Average FD: 0.6 Frame (~half a frame)
59.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.

Average lag: 15-25ms
1-2 Frame delay.
Average FD: 1.5 Frame
58.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.
(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

Average lag: 50-60ms
3-4 frame delay
Average FD: 3.5 Frame
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

Average Lag: 50-60ms
3-4 frame delay
Average FD: 3.5 Frame
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

Thanks. I completely forgot about that breakdown. I can adjust all or most of the settings in HDMI2/PC mode correct? How much do you think the HDMI cables will help when in game mode? Currently it's too dark and I don't expect the HDMI cables to brighten it up but it should clear everything up a bit. Either way I plan to go the HDMI2/PC route because of the ability to adjust the settings.
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post #202 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Snatch98 View Post

I can adjust all or most of the settings in HDMI2/PC mode correct?

It's in the first post.
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post #203 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post

It's in the first post.

Doh

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post #204 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snatch98 View Post

Thanks. I completely forgot about that breakdown. I can adjust all or most of the settings in HDMI2/PC mode correct? How much do you think the HDMI cables will help when in game mode? Currently it's too dark and I don't expect the HDMI cables to brighten it up but it should clear everything up a bit. Either way I plan to go the HDMI2/PC route because of the ability to adjust the settings.

Just to make sure do you have the ps3 settings set up right???

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post #205 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post

From the first post.

HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.

Average lag: 6-15ms
0.3-1 frame delay.
Average FD: 0.6 Frame (~half a frame)
59.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.
(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.

Average lag: 15-25ms
1-2 Frame delay.
Average FD: 1.5 Frame
58.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.
(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

Average lag: 50-60ms
3-4 frame delay
Average FD: 3.5 Frame
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.

Average Lag: 50-60ms
3-4 frame delay
Average FD: 3.5 Frame
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

Question have you stopped testing just asking cause I was curious and also I thought it would be beneficial to see if using energy saver mode on either low, medium, or high can add more input lag or not?

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post #206 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

Question have you stopped testing just asking cause I was curious and also I thought it would be beneficial to see if using energy saver mode on either low, medium, or high can add more input lag or not?

For now, yes. I just put my living room and computer desk back together last weekend.

I will probably do another round of testing, at some point.
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post #207 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

Just to make sure do you have the ps3 settings set up right???

Meaning what? I'm without HDMI cables until they arrive from Monoprice. I ordered them this morning 2nd day air and because I don't have HDMI cables I haven't messed with my PS3 settings. What settings should I adjust?
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post #208 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post

To further clarify, in all my testing turning AMP on/off had NO NOTICEABLE impact on input lag. People assume the lag is produced by the AMP processing but my testing does not support this in any way.

That is weird, AMP takes a "1" frame and a "2" frame to create a "1.5" frame, meaning that there must be extra processing time. I think it also depends on what you are viewing, complicated motion might take longer to process than a static PC screen with no horizontal or vertical motion like your tests. I have also noticed lip sync delay when watching HD content with AMP on medium or high on my 750
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post #209 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zero HD View Post

That is weird, AMP takes a "1" frame and a "2" frame to create a "1.5" frame, meaning that there must be extra processing time. I think it also depends on what you are viewing, complicated motion might take longer to process than a static of screen with no horizontal or vertical motion like your tests. I have also noticed lip sync delay when watching HD content with AMP on medium of high on my 750

That could be possible. If I do further testing, I will put a video or movie on in the background to see if it increases the lag.
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post #210 of 663 Old 01-27-2009, 11:34 PM
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How's the lag in 480i on the A650?

All I see is progressive result which I am not interested to know. Some people still play 2D fighting games & bemani games.
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