Samsung UN55B7100 VS Panasonic TH-50PZ800U VS Panasonic TC-P50G10 (Fully Calibrated) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 520 Old 03-07-2009, 11:09 PM
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Ok seriously i have no idea how you guys came up with this:

-The Samsung had better contrast.
-The Samsung had higher light output
-Subjectively sharper image although the test pattern showed about the same. very slight edge to the Samsung-Punchier picture on the Samsung Both are equal-Better blacks on the Samsung actually it looks crushed on the Samsung and way better detail on the Panasonic

atleast to me and i know some others the Panasonic looks better. now ask yourself if the extra $$$ is worth it for less Screen size and Slim desgin because PQ wise the Samsung matches the 800U at best.

Can't wait to see the NEO PDPs selling more than LCDs.

*check the camaro pic and look at the right left tire. Better detail on the Panasonic.The samsung's crushed black make it look "black"

Not trying to start anything just stating my opinion and even d34dl1n3r agrees.
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post #32 of 520 Old 03-07-2009, 11:17 PM
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Love this set. Wonder if I should splurge and get a 55"?
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post #33 of 520 Old 03-07-2009, 11:17 PM
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It was a pleasure meeting Chris from Cleveland Plasma and calibrating the Samsung B7100 for review!
Although Samsung refers to this as an "LED TV", that term is misleading. Actually, it is an LCD TV with an LED edgelit backlight.
I was impressed with the new Sammy's thin profile and high tech design, but of course I was most interested to see it's best performance and compare it to a calibrated Panasonic 800u THX plasma, which I am very familiar with.

First impressions before I did any calibration work:
Brightness uniformity was good on a white field, with just a slight darkening at each of the 4 corners. This was not much different than other LCDs I've calibrated.
Color washed out off axis as on other LCD displays, with red becoming a little orangish and green a little yellowish off to the sides.
Black uniformity was not that great; it had some blotchiness and cloudiness in some areas.
Attachment #1 is the measured performance in standard mode before cal, at default settings.
I started by going into the service menu and calibrating and unlocking the calibration day and night modes, but then I noticed that they had much higher black levels than other modes like Movie mode. Even though this is not a local dimming backlight model, it does dynamically dim the backlight with low APL signals in all modes except the calibration day and night modes. I thought the much improved blacks were too valuable to sacrifice, so I decided to concentrate on calibrating movie mode. Attachment #2 is uncalibrated Movie mode. The blacks went from typical LCD quality to, IMO, 8G Kuro quality. The cloudy spots were much less apparent and no longer a problem in most situations.
Movie mode calibrated well in the user menu. Grayscale tracking was good though not exceptional; on par with other Samsung LCDs. Gamma started high on the low end because it came out of black slow like a CRT, but it averaged about 2.15 the rest of the way. I could have made it over 2.2 the entire way, but then it would have been even higher at the low and and shadow detail would have been very hard to see. The color gamut calibrated nearly perfectly! The only 2 colors with dE higher than .5 were red and blue, and they were both not bad. Color luminance was exceptional with careful calibration of the CMS. The dynamic backlight action after calibration in Movie mode was fast and unobtrusive. I got 58 ft-l of light output, which is good for a moderately bright room. Resolution was excellent at 1080i and 1080P. I did not test lower resolutions.
The subjective look was stunning! This set has tons of "pop", and it has beautiful color. It looks very crisp and detailed. Since it came out of black slowly, dark objects are just a bit too dark, but that's very forgiveable considering how great it looks overall.
I then calibrated the Panny 800u's THX mode, which made a huge improvement over the uncalibrated THX mode. After cal the 800u put out 40 ft-l on a 100% white window. We looked at the same scenes on both sets. I know we compared 58 ft-l to 40, but I didn't want to handicap the Sammy by reducing it's light output. After all, that's one of it's most important advantages; it wouldn't be fair to take that advantage away.
The Samsung had more apparent contrast ratio. It was easy to see the difference; it just won that contest hands down.
The Samsung appeared a bit sharper and had more vibrant colors. Flesh tones were neither too sunburnt nor too pale; they looked perfectly natural. However, it's high low end gamma meant that shadow detail was harder to see than on the Panny, which errs in the opposite direction (the 800u comes out of black too fast). The Panasonic has a natural, forgiving look that is easy on the eyes but not as involving. Overall I preferred the Samsung because of it's higher contrast ratio, higher light output which makes it more versatile and well suited for bright living rooms, and superb color. But I still like the 800u; it's natural, easy going look and lower price are important.
Attachment #3 is the measurements of the Samsung's calibrated movie mode.
LL
LL
LL
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post #34 of 520 Old 03-07-2009, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetthal View Post

Ok seriously i have no idea how you guys came up with this:

-The Samsung had better contrast.
-The Samsung had higher light output
-Subjectively sharper image although the test pattern showed about the same. very slight edge to the Samsung-Punchier picture on the Samsung Both are equal-Better blacks on the Samsung actually it looks crushed on the Samsung and way better detail on the Panasonic

atleast to me and i know some others the Panasonic looks better. now ask yourself if the extra $$$ is worth it for less Screen size and Slim desgin because PQ wise the Samsung matches the 800U at best.

Can't wait to see the NEO PDPs selling more than LCDs.

*check the camaro pic and look at the right left tire. Better detail on the Panasonic.The samsung's crushed black make it look "black"

Not trying to start anything just stating my opinion and even d34dl1n3r agrees.

Neither set has perfect gamma at the low end, but they err in opposite directions. The Sammy's low end gamma is too high, which means shadow detail is darker and harder to see. But it is not crushed; the detail is there, just a little low in level. The Panny's THX mode gamma is too low at the low end, which means near black images are boosted and shadow detail is a bit washed out. But neither set is bad enough to say it is poor with shadow detail; it's just that with them being opposites they exaggerate the differences. I still consider the 800u's THX mode gamma to be "good" overall, and the same for the Samsung.
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post #35 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

The Panasonic has a natural, forgiving look that is easy on the eyes but not as involving.
But I still like the 800u; it's natural, easy going look and lower price are important.

Enough Said
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post #36 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetthal View Post

The Panasonic has a natural, forgiving look that is easy on the eyes but not as involving.
But I still like the 800u; it's natural, easy going look and lower price are important.
Enough Said

Is that what they call "selectively quoting"...?

You forgot to quote the other parts of Chad B's professional review- namely how he prefer the Luxia over the 800u, how Luxia's contrast ratio beats the 800u hands down, the 8G kuro quality blacks...etc

Quote:
Can't wait to see the NEO PDPs selling more than LCDs

I don't get it... Why does it seem you have a hate for LCD TVs? I mean I prefer the LCDs, BUT I don't hate plasma/Panasonic. I certainly wouldn't anxiously wait for sales figures of NEO PDP and LCDs to see who sold more units in 2009.
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post #37 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 05:58 AM
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Wow, very cool comparo.

Really like the Sammy... obviously sharper and superior in contrast to the Panny.

But is it $800 better (street price) than the 58" version of the Panny and worth losing the 3" over? Hmm, very individual choice, actually. I'd lean towards quality myself, but the money is an issue, moreso than the small diff in screen size.

What is scary, if you're a plasma patriot, is it seems that even if the Panny is still the better value, LCD is now coming awfully close overall. And the 800U was hardly a pushover... second highest-rated set on CNET, behind only the Elite. And now Pioneer's gone.

Will Panny's upcoming Neo PDPs, with their alleged contrast and brightness improvements, ride to the rescue? Tune in next week, same bat-time, same bat-channel.

(Chris, that was a not-so-veiled request for a Neo vs Luxia shoot-out in the near future )
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post #38 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 06:16 AM
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Also, Chad, Chris... what do you think of the Luxia vs the A950? Significant step forward or baby-step forward?
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post #39 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 06:23 AM
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For some reason I am thinking that I like the "real-life" screenshots on the Panasonic better than the Samsung. i.e. joker looking in the mirror.

The Samsung seems to do better on anything computer generated.

The only exception being the Pixar screen.
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post #40 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

It was a pleasure meeting Chris and calibrating the new Sammy for review!
I was impressed with the new Sammy's thin profile and high tech design, but of course I was most interested to see it's best performance and compare it to a calibrated Panasonic 800u THX plasma, which I am very familiar with.

First impressions before I did anything to it:
Brightness uniformity was good on a white field, with just a slight darkening at each of the 4 corners. This is not much different than other LCDs I've calibrated.
Color washed out off axis as on other LCD displays, with red becoming a little orangish and green a little yellowish off to the sides.
Black uniformity was not that great; it had some blotchiness and cloudiness in some areas.
Attachment #1 is the measured performance in std mode before cal, at default settings.
I started by going into the service menu and calibrating and unlocking the calibration day and night modes, but then I noticed that they had much higher black levels than other modes like Movie mode. Even though this is not a local dimming backlight model, it does dynamically dim the backlight with low APL signals in all modes except the calibration day and night modes. I thought the much improved blacks were too valuable to sacrifice, so I decided to concentrate on calibrating movie mode. Attachment #2 is uncalibrated Movie mode. The blacks went from typical LCD quality to, IMO, 8G Kuro quality. The cloudy spots were much less apparent and no longer a problem in most situations.
Movie mode calibrated well in the user menu. Grayscale tracking was good though not exceptional; on par with other Samsung LCDs. Gamma started high on the low end because it came out of black slow like a CRT, but it averaged about 2.15 the rest of the way. I could have made it over 2.2 the entire way, but then it would have been even higher at the low and and shadow detail would have been very hard to see. The color gamut calibrated nearly perfectly! The only 2 colors with dE higher than .5 were red and blue, and they were both not bad. Color luminance was exceptional with careful calibration of the CMS. The dynamic backlight action after calibration in Movie mode was fast and unobtrusive. I got 58 ft-l of light output, which is good for a moderately bright room. Resolution was excellent at 1080i and 1080P. I did not test lower resolutions.
The subjective look was stunning! This set has tons of "pop", and it has beautiful color. It looks very crisp and detailed. Since it came out of black slowly, dark objects are just a bit too dark, but that's very forgiveable considering how great it looks overall.
I then calibrated the Panny 800u's THX mode, which made a huge improvement over the uncalibrated THX mode. After cal the 800u put out 40 ft-l on a 100% white window. We looked at the same scenes on both sets. I know we compared 58 ft-l to 40, but I didn't want to handicap the Sammy by reducing it's light output. After all, that's one of it's most important advantages; it wouldn't be fair to take that advantage away.
The Samsung had more apparent contrast ratio. It was easy to see the difference; it just won that contest hands down.
The Samsung appeared a bit sharper and had more vibrant colors. Flesh tones were neither too sunburnt nor too pale; they looked perfectly natural. However, it's high low end gamma meant that shadow detail was harder to see than on the Panny, which errs in the opposite direction (the 800u comes out of black too fast). The Panasonic has a natural, forgiving look that is easy on the eyes but not as involving. Overall I preferred the Samsung because of it's higher contrast ratio, higher light output which makes it more versatile and well suited for bright living rooms, and superb color. But I still like the 800u; it's natural, easy going look and lower price are important.
Attachment #3 is the measurements of the Samsung's calibrated movie mode.

Thank you very much for the detailed review. This is great because unlike most reviews which generally compare a set to a number of others in general, you actually had the two sets go head to head directly.

I guess that the only thing to really consider would be the fact that the Panasonic is last year's model, right (besides being a different technology)?

I think that the Luxia's have sparked my interest once again, although the pricing is what probably does me in.
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post #41 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetthal View Post

Ok seriously i have no idea how you guys came up with this:

-The Samsung had better contrast.
-The Samsung had higher light output
-Subjectively sharper image although the test pattern showed about the same. very slight edge to the Samsung-Punchier picture on the Samsung Both are equal-Better blacks on the Samsung actually it looks crushed on the Samsung and way better detail on the Panasonic

Anyone that would like to stop out is more then welcome too. A picture is a Picture and all things can not be captured in a picture. Everyone has an opinion and they are intitled to it.

Again, I have to note these are both great displays. I do not care what you buy, as long as you buy from a forum sponser
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post #42 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 09:07 AM
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How's the vertical text scrolling? That was one significant distraction I noticed on the A950 that it was noticeably more jumpy than other models beside it showing the same content. That and the petry dish/microorganism effect but the later might be a source issue.
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post #43 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I will advise, have not watched much tv yet.

I have to admit that my thinking cap was not on yesterday. I got in a big rush towards the end of the day, The Panasonic TC-P50G10 just came in stock but I did not pick one up, because I would have had to pay MSRP. When I think about it now, I realise that was an error Big error.
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post #44 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combatsambo View Post

Is that what they call "selectively quoting"...?

You forgot to quote the other parts of Chad B's professional review- namely how he prefer the Luxia over the 800u, how Luxia's contrast ratio beats the 800u hands down, the 8G kuro quality blacks...etc



I don't get it... Why does it seem you have a hate for LCD TVs? I mean I prefer the LCDs, BUT I don't hate plasma/Panasonic. I certainly wouldn't anxiously wait for sales figures of NEO PDP and LCDs to see who sold more units in 2009.


I don't hate LCDs, my pc monitor is a LCD

what i dislike is the fact that LCDs sell more even though imo can't match a Plasma's overall PQ because they are Brighter and Burn-in myths.

Now with the NEO PDPs being "Brighter" we will see if ppl really want a LCD or anything thats bright.
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post #45 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fscool View Post

I guess that the only thing to really consider would be the fact that the Panasonic is last year's model, right (besides being a different technology)?

Yes, the fact that the 2008 holds up well (some would consider bests the lcd) just shows how good of a set it is. I'd like to see a comparison of the 7100 lcd to a new Panasonic NeoPDP as that would be a fairer comparison IMO.
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post #46 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 11:33 AM
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Any chance we can see a comparison of PC inputs (HDMI/DVI).. Wondering if the Luxia's work as well as the 850's as PC monitors..
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post #47 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Yes, the fact that the 2008 holds up well (some would consider bests the lcd) just shows how good of a set it is. I'd like to see a comparison of the 7100 lcd to a new Panasonic NeoPDP as that would be a fairer comparison IMO.

Now that wouldn't be fair
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post #48 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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post #49 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetthal View Post

I don't hate LCDs, my pc monitor is a LCD

what i dislike is the fact that LCDs sell more even though imo can't match a Plasma's overall PQ because they are Brighter and Burn-in myths.

Now with the NEO PDPs being "Brighter" we will see if ppl really want a LCD or anything thats bright.

I thought the NEO PDP will be out in June..., I see Cleveland P. has them already! That was a little too long for me to wait. I hope it does a better job at PQ...well...at least to my taste. My best CRT TVs were all Panny's, so they always had my "brand loyalty."

Having said that IMO I agree with Chad B, I think the Sammy's pic. beats the pants off the 800u, at least according to the pics.
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post #50 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 03:27 PM
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Hi.
Can Samsung UN55B7100 play movies in MKV format over ethernet or from a USB stick?
thx.
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post #51 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetthal View Post

Ok seriously i have no idea how you guys came up with this:

-The Samsung had better contrast.
-The Samsung had higher light output
-Subjectively sharper image although the test pattern showed about the same. very slight edge to the Samsung-Punchier picture on the Samsung Both are equal-Better blacks on the Samsung actually it looks crushed on the Samsung and way better detail on the Panasonic

atleast to me and i know some others the Panasonic looks better. now ask yourself if the extra $$$ is worth it for less Screen size and Slim desgin because PQ wise the Samsung matches the 800U at best.

Can't wait to see the NEO PDPs selling more than LCDs.

*check the camaro pic and look at the right left tire. Better detail on the Panasonic.The samsung's crushed black make it look "black"

Not trying to start anything just stating my opinion and even d34dl1n3r agrees.

agreed i think the panny has better color's and the black's aren't crushed.
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post #52 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetthal View Post


What i dislike is the fact that LCDs sell more even though imo can't match a Plasma's overall PQ because they are Brighter and Burn-in myths.

Well, whose fault is that? The plasma makers, really. They need to market better, make brighter sets that can compete under big-box store viewing conditions (Panny is finally doing this), and remove burn-in as a major reason NOT to get a plasma.

Something like a lifetime or at least extended burn-in warranty would probably work there, but I don't see any plasma makers going there, AFAIK

Quote:


Now with the NEO PDPs being "Brighter" we will see if ppl really want a LCD or anything thats bright.

Good point. But improved brightness, by itself, may be a case of 'too little- too late'. LCD has built up an awful lot of momentum over the past few years. The public's mindset is getting pretty set that LCD is the way to go. It's going to take a full-court press in terms of the marketing message and the highlighting of plasma's advantages to really stem the tide, much less turn it.

And burn-in MUST be gotten rid of, in the mainstream consumer's mind, as a reason to avoid plasma. If you don't do that, not much else matters more than likely.
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post #53 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 04:00 PM
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For a non-locally dimmed LCD, black levels were better than I expected. No point in waiting and paying more for a future release Samsung 9000 Series
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post #54 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 05:07 PM
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Hi,

As far as LCD tech goes, which provides a better viewing angle - Edge Lit LED sets or Locally Dimmed LED ones? I ask because both the Samsung & Sony LD-LED models have come in for a lot of criticism for how badly the picture washes out from by even a very small distance when off centre. I need a set that is adequate for family/friends sprawled out across the room/floor so would I feel selfish if only the person(s) sitting dead centre had the best picture! It seems that the black levels on these Edge are much better than expected and more than acceptable for family viewing? What do others think?

Bazzy!
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post #55 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Hi,

As far as LCD tech goes, which provides a better viewing angle - Edge Lit LED sets or Locally Dimmed LED ones? I ask because both the Samsung & Sony LD-LED models have come in for a lot of criticism for how badly the picture washes out from by even a very small distance when off centre. I need a set that is adequate for family/friends sprawled out across the room/floor so would I feel selfish if only the person(s) sitting dead centre had the best picture! It seems that the black levels on these Edge are much better than expected and more than acceptable for family viewing? What do others think?

Bazzy!

Judging by the pics Chris has provided I would agree that edge lit seems better on off angle viewing than local dimming. Really will wait to reserve the final judgement until I see one in person.
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post #56 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

(Panasonic TH-50PZ800U on top, Samsung UN55B7100 on bottom) Looks like I flinched, sorry.........

Panasonic:



Samsung:


panasonic looks way better in this picture.
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post #57 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by motogp View Post

panasonic looks way better in this picture.

Perhaps camera movement is the cause of the blurriness.

Chris, any way possible to retake that shot?
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post #58 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp View Post

panasonic looks way better in this picture.

Just like the Samsung looks better in others. They are pics, which are only as good as the photographer. Not to mention, how difficult it is to capture images on a display.

The pictures are more for fun than anything else (I am a picture a whore!).

If you noticed, some pictures are over/underexposed on both sets, and the color temperature differs greatly between the pics as well.

I am not a fan of the Panasonic personally. I know it has a substantial following, and for good reason. It is a decent plasma, for a decent price.
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post #59 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motogp View Post

panasonic looks way better in this picture.

Chris even said he probably flinched when he took it. And in all the other pics, the Sammy looks sharper.

This is the only one where it doesn't, so draw your conclusions from there. *shrug*
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post #60 of 520 Old 03-08-2009, 06:13 PM
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I expected the grayscale to be much better on this set, given Samsungs reputation.
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