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post #361 of 4672 Old 05-11-2009, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by coolowl View Post

I'm not sure I read something correctly. Does it matter which mode I'm in when I make the calibration changes? All this time I've been making my changes in the Custom mode. A couple of the notes seem to imply that if I made those exact same changes in the Standard I'd end up with a different result. Is that true?

I really don't think so. The vivid, cinema and all of the other modes are just presets, with a certain level of settings for each mode. In order for the Sony to have untouchable, different settings would require changes in the service menu, initiated by the by the user accessible operating system . I don't see the point in that scenario. Sony has gone to significant lengths to make as many settings as possible available to the consumer, that were previously only available in the service menu.

However, in all of my years involved with this hobby, I've discovered and have been taught stranger things. I'll throw up a few test patterns to see if maybe this is indeed the case. Stay tuned, I'll post what I see...Will

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post #362 of 4672 Old 05-11-2009, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Will Munshower View Post

I really don't think so. The vivid, cinema and all of the other modes are just presets, with a certain level of settings for each mode. In order for the Sony to have untouchable, different settings would require changes in the service menu, initiated by the by the user accessible operating system . I don't see the point in that scenario. Sony has gone to significant lengths to make as many settings as possible available to the consumer, that were previously only available in the service menu.

However, in all of my years involved with this hobby, I've discovered and have been taught stranger things. I'll throw up a few test patterns to see if maybe this is indeed the case. Stay tuned, I'll post what I see...Will

Great, Thanks Will for spending till to look at this...honestly I jsut dont feel like checking Atm
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post #363 of 4672 Old 05-11-2009, 11:24 AM
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OK...None of this is scientific, since I do not own a coloromiter. I just used a blue, green and red filter with Digital Video Essentials and my eyes. I set the vivid, standard and cinema mode settings identical to my custom settings. I used the following patterns:

Overscan
Overscan H Filtered
75% Bars, Grey Scale
75% Bars, Gray Reference
Pluge with Color Bars
Needle Pulse
Pluge with Grey Scale

Using my eyes and my eyes with the filters, I did not note any difference in the following:

Brightness
Contrast
Sharpness
Hue
Color Saturation
Edge Enhancement
Noise Reduction
Gamma
Red, Blue or Green Push

Now, since I don't have the equipment to calibrate grey scale, it is possible however, in my opinion, unlikely, that the TV's grey scale tracking is different with the various modes. I find this highly improbable.

There are also a TON of members here who have forgotten more than I know. Maybe there are differences between the different modes but as far as I know, the only purpose they serve are presets, kind of like sound field presets (hall, studio, cathedral, amphitheater, etc) that you would find on an AVR or car stereo. You can make any two or more of them sound the same, tweak them or make all of them sound the same. This is just my opinion, I could be wrong...Will

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post #364 of 4672 Old 05-11-2009, 12:27 PM
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Okay. You have confirmed what I assumed from the beginning. Thank you for your time and effort in doing that. I certainly didn't expect that. Thanks again.

I'm having my set swapped out for another (even though I don't think my problem is the TV....I think it's the cable box). But the store where I bought it from said that's what they want to do so who am I to stop them?

See where you think the problem lies...when I change from an HD channel to a non-HD channel or visa versa (all the signals coming from the cable box via HDMI to the TV) there is a loud pop and half the time the picture doesn't appear...only the sound. Even after several seconds of waiting it's still only the sound. So, I have to go back and forth several times before the picture shows up. It makes it rough trying to watch two things at once.
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post #365 of 4672 Old 05-11-2009, 01:00 PM
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Coolowl,

I'm assuming (since you said the cable goes from the box to the TV) that you do not use an AVR. That being said, the loss of video sounds like an HDMI handshaking issue. As far as the 'pops', I have that happen as well. Especially when I'm watching Hulu or any other IPTV provider, for that matter. What happens is that right before any program begins, I get kind of a 'thump' sound from my speakers. It's actually reassuring since when I hear that sound, I know I'm actually going to have my selection streamed to me.

Is there another cable box you can swap out? How about an HDMI cable? By the process of elimination you will definitely find the issue. It's just that starting with the display is kind of drastic. (However, the representative from the store did insist!)

Do you have a relatively new or brand new (current) cable box? Maybe it needs its firmware flashed? HDCP (High Definition Copyright Protection) can be a royal pain in the arse at times. If you don't have the latest and greatest cable box, I would insist on one.

And in the 'out in left field' category...It is always a good thing to have your components on the same ground that is hopefully as close to 0 volts as possible. Also, if you are the electronic type, check for voltage variances between the collar of the F-connector that connects to your cable box and the ground of your outlet. If you are not comfortable or if you're not the electrical/electronic type, don't do this...You may hurt or kill yourself.

I have had two occasions where the cable company had not properly 'earth grounded' their incoming line. Once I had measured 6 volts between the cable and my home electrical ground. I don't have to tell you what kind of havoc that created. I'm lucky I didn't lose some of my gear.

As far as the electrical grounding, that is something easy and safe to do. Get a quality power strip that has an LED that lights up if you have a proper electrical ground or not and plug your gear into that power strip. If the strip doesn't have the LEDs, not to worry, plugging your stuff into the same outlet at least covers the electrical ground worries.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Hopefully everything I typed is not the issue and swapping out the display fixes the problem. BTW, have you tried plugging the HDMI cable into a different input on the TV?

Good luck...Will

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post #366 of 4672 Old 05-11-2009, 03:20 PM
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nice post will [img]http://imagesshack.info/************[/img]

good see people creating awareness about electricity & the importants of grounded earths
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post #367 of 4672 Old 05-11-2009, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Munshower View Post

Coolowl,

I'm assuming (since you said the cable goes from the box to the TV) that you do not use an AVR. That being said, the loss of video sounds like an HDMI handshaking issue. As far as the 'pops', I have that happen as well. Especially when I'm watching Hulu or any other IPTV provider, for that matter. What happens is that right before any program begins, I get kind of a 'thump' sound from my speakers. It's actually reassuring since when I hear that sound, I know I'm actually going to have my selection streamed to me.

I recently installed my 52v5100 and use it primarily as a computer monitor for gaming and movies, but also as a sleep timer, in SD tv mode, off of a cable box.

I never get the "pop" while swapping channels in SD from cable, or while watching videos from my computer, but if I alt-tab from some full screen games, which causes a temporary loss of signal, I absolutely get the "pop". This happens if muted or not. I do not run any audio out of the TV while it's used as a monitor, so I cannot comment on the "pop" traveling through the audio circuitry (though I could test it if someone would like). The Sony, my computer, and everything else, is run through a commercial quality line conditioner (not a surge strip), so voltage fluctuations should be modest at the AC point. I'm using a DVI-to-HDMI connection. It's really not that big of an issue for me, as I believe it's intended (though quieter would be better).

Even my cable box, not connected to anything but an AC source, makes a somewhat similar pop if you turn it on or off (although quieter). Normal electrical discharges, I would assume.

High end amplifiers, and pre-amps, for years, have often had "soft-on" features. This is designed to power on the amplifier section later than ASAP, in order to reduce, or eliminate, the powering of the capacitors to carry into the output section audibly. It's only an aesthetic difference in an amplifier, unless the thump is so extreme it could damage the speakers, so it's unlikely that you need worry.

My guess is that it would be related to the backlight and capacitors dumping their stored energy and then re-starting, and nothing abnormal.

I'm curious if anyone feels that it could be detrimental to the set.

I noticed Sony implemented an option to swap to standby when no signal is present (apparently in case you turn off your dvd, pc, etc.., it will standby like a monitor and mostly power down). I found no reduction in the pop effect with this mode engaged. I also "pop" if I turn off the computer while the Sony is still set to the HDMI output from the computer.

/Sorry for the wall of text. My eyes are buggy today, because of conjunctivitis, so I don't want to spend much time making a prettier post.
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post #368 of 4672 Old 05-11-2009, 09:40 PM
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Great posts guys!! Just gt my 52v5100 delivered. Seeing a problem.

When TV is connected to dish receiver the entire image seems to be displacing by less than an inch every second. Especially when you see text, such as program info, you can clearly see the picture shifting left to right by a CM or so every second. Any ideas how to adjust this. Should I return this set or contact Sony or change the component cable connection to HDMI. Will that make a difference.

However, I don't see this issue when playing DVD. I swapped the cables and checked but only dish connection has this problem.

Thanks.
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post #369 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 10:15 AM
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Just got the 46" v5100. It is amazing. I put the update on it and it is much better. Played ps3 on it and that was incredible as well. Amazing tv, have fun buying a samsung pos.
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post #370 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 01:06 PM
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A replacement TV didn't help my problem - popping when changing from HD to SD and no picture half the time when changing channels. The temporary solution is to use component cables instead of HDMI. That does eliminate the problems. However, it's not the correct permanent solution. Something's obviously wrong. I think it's the cable box but I've already replaced it once. I give up.
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post #371 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolowl View Post

A replacement TV didn't help my problem - popping when changing from HD to SD and no picture half the time when changing channels. The temporary solution is to use component cables instead of HDMI. That does eliminate the problems. However, it's not the correct permanent solution. Something's obviously wrong. I think it's the cable box but I've already replaced it once. I give up.

Ok Time to troubleshoot.

Did you change the cable wire form wall to box?

Did you change the HDMI cable?

Did you change the outlet to which the Cable box and or TV is plugged to?

Did you Plug the TV and Cablebox thru a power protector?
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post #372 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 03:11 PM
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Also, what cable service do you have? I troubleshoot Verizon FIOS for my part time job (21 year old college student) and I get so tired of taking the HDMI handshake calls...

Sometimes it really can be inherent in the design of the box. FIOS boxes are nightmares with Vizio TV's in particular for example.
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post #373 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 03:35 PM
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Did you change the cable wire form wall to box? Yes, no change.

Did you change the HDMI cable? Yes, no change.

Did you change the outlet to which the Cable box and or TV is plugged to? Yes, no change.

Did you Plug the TV and Cablebox thru a power protector? Yes, already was.

Since the component cables work and since there are no problems when viewing the signal via the "TV" setting, something for sure seems to be amiss with the HDMI.

TSL49, you said you have seen HDMI handshake problems before. Can you suggest what to do to make the problem disappear? My cable company is Insight (Lexington, KY). The cable box is a Motorola DCH 6416. It's the second same type/brand box. The first one did the same thing. I asked them if they had a different type and they said no.

I wonder if it is possible to buy my own cable box (and therefore have the capability to perhaps make some setting adjustments). If so, I wonder if it work correctly via my cable company.

Appreciate the concern and suggestions. The media/electronics store I bought the TV from also seems genuinely concerned. They said they'd try to replicate the problem back at the store as well as contacting Sony to see if anyone else has reported the problem.
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post #374 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolowl View Post

Did you change the cable wire form wall to box? Yes, no change.

Did you change the HDMI cable? Yes, no change.

Did you change the outlet to which the Cable box and or TV is plugged to? Yes, no change.

Did you Plug the TV and Cablebox thru a power protector? Yes, already was.

Since the component cables work and since there are no problems when viewing the signal via the "TV" setting, something for sure seems to be amiss with the HDMI.

TSL49, you said you have seen HDMI handshake problems before. Can you suggest what to do to make the problem disappear? My cable company is Insight (Lexington, KY). The cable box is a Motorola DCH 6416. It's the second same type/brand box. The first one did the same thing. I asked them if they had a different type and they said no.

I wonder if it is possible to buy my own cable box (and therefore have the capability to perhaps make some setting adjustments). If so, I wonder if it work correctly via my cable company.

Appreciate the concern and suggestions. The media/electronics store I bought the TV from also seems genuinely concerned. They said they'd try to replicate the problem back at the store as well as contacting Sony to see if anyone else has reported the problem.


Ok...

Remove the split cable signal. Connect with the Cable box only.

Make sure n othing else is connected thru that electric line in the house. Only the tv and cable box. See if it still pops.

Is it only certain channels that pop when changing?

Ill keep thinking
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post #375 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 04:21 PM
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Ah the Internet is a wonderful thing! I fixed it. I Googled the Motorola DCH cable box and found a .pdf of the service manual. In it I learned how to access the menu AND change settings. A risky proposition, I know, but I carefully read and tried one setting that seemed possible. It was called "4:3 Override". The default was 480i. I changed it to 480p but things still popped. So, I changed it to OFF. Ta,da. No pop!!!

Now, I'm not sure what 4:3 override does but the picture looks the same as it used to so I'm happy. There are several other advanced HDMI settings but a warning comes on screen sort of saying beware. So, I think I'll stick to what I have now.

If someone thinks I should back up and reset that 4:3 Override setting to the default please let me know. Perhaps I'm missing something or have done something wrong. Thanks.
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post #376 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolowl View Post

Ah the Internet is a wonderful thing! I fixed it. I Googled the Motorola DCH cable box and found a .pdf of the service manual. In it I learned how to access the menu AND change settings. A risky proposition, I know, but I carefully read and tried one setting that seemed possible. It was called "4:3 Override". The default was 480i. I changed it to 480p but things still popped. So, I changed it to OFF. Ta,da. No pop!!!

Now, I'm not sure what 4:3 override does but the picture looks the same as it used to so I'm happy. There are several other advanced HDMI settings but a warning comes on screen sort of saying beware. So, I think I'll stick to what I have now.

If someone thinks I should back up and reset that 4:3 Override setting to the default please let me know. Perhaps I'm missing something or have done something wrong. Thanks.

It sounds like you flipped it from processing the signal in a forced mode, to allowing it to go passively. As I commented above, this might let it not drop the signal which was causing it to restart the monitor, because now there's no break in the connection.

If there's no break in the connection, the monitor doesn't need to protect itself, and re-start after. I would leave it as is, but I'm not a tech, so take it as purely an internet idiot's diagnosis.

TLS49, might be able to explain it better, as he might have the training for it.

You've ruled out a grounding issue, at least. A grounding issue would be the serious risk, whereas an annoyance "pop" from signal drop/pop is usually not damaging (unless you force it, over and over, endlessly). And now you have no pop
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post #377 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 05:53 PM
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The monitor restarting itself...okay. Makes sense. That explains why the picture is showing up faster after changing channels than it did before. A nice added benefit.

Okay, so this begs the question why would there be the "processing the signal in a forced mode" setting in the first place. I wonder what that does.
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post #378 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolowl View Post

The monitor restarting itself...okay. Makes sense. That explains why the picture is showing up faster after changing channels than it did before. A nice added benefit.

Okay, so this begs the question why would there be the "processing the signal in a forced mode" setting in the first place. I wonder what that does.

Well, sometimes technology tries to justify it's needs, without a user intended purpose.

You could like it to the 120hz craze. A lot of people here won't use the 120hz feature of the tv, because they don't like the unneeded processing (I personally like it for some things, but most usually leave it off).

If your box was trying to take the input and then give you the option of changing it, as a "feature", it might not do much to make a difference, but it will still take the signal, try to correct it for what it thinks you want, and then spew it back out in almost the identical format that it took in. The time it takes it to convert from the original to the result, could mean there's a lag time when you swap sources, until it catches up.

I generally run my 52V5100 in gaming mode, because it removes most of the lag when I swap between a movie, browse, game, or use it as a monitor for basic computer needs. It doesn't stop the pop, but it does reduce some of the unneeded processing that I could care less about. If I want 120hz on, I'll enable once I launch a video that really warrants it.

It's why some people still love old records. A record is analog. There's no need to process it into digital, and process it back into analog, to end up with a crappier analog version of what was a fine LP in the first place. But anyone selling you a CD will tell you there's a great reason for it.

//Now if you were trying to convert the signal into another type of signal on purpose, the option is there for you to do it. So it's not completely without reason.
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post #379 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 06:27 PM
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Hmm...interesting. I'd like to see if I can see a difference with the 120 Hz turned off. Can you tell me where to change that?
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post #380 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolowl View Post

Hmm...interesting. I'd like to see if I can see a difference with the 120 Hz turned off. Can you tell me where to change that?

Press menu. Go to Picture. Scroll down to "Advanced Settings". Hit the "enter" key, the middle + sign in the middle of the arrow buttons on the remote. Make sure "Game Mode" is set to "off". Set "Motion Flow" to "Normal" or "High". You're now in 120hz mode.

You'll need to set this individually, for each input you have. So you can have your dvd input set for it on, and cable for it off, and your xbox/ps3 for it in gaming mode, if they have separate connections. I think every input keeps it's own setup, so you should adjust colors, brightness, etc, for all of them, instead of thinking one will dictate all of them.

//Edit, I found that in some scenes in "planet earth blu ray", and in "the dark knight", I really enjoy the 120hz. The snow leopard scene in PE Disc 1, where it's running down the side of the mountain, really makes the cat stand out and look sharp and almost 3-D. Lower speed movies, I find it's not that interesting to have it on, and for movies that don't do justice to the tv's resolution, there's not much difference at all.

///If you have a blu-ray player, and you haven't seen planet earth in 1080p, at least rent the first disc as a tribute to your new screen. Then play with 120hz and decide what you think. It's a feast for the eyes.
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post #381 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 08:20 PM
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Actually, 4:3 override is a perfectly safe change to make. I usually make that change 2-3 times a week when a customer's set top box is not displaying 1080i content on his HD channels. It is in a recessed diagnostics menu on the FIOS boxes, but nothing dangerous as we let even the oldest and most geriatric of customers access and manipulate the menu.

Essentially, with FIOS, 4:3 override adds a process in which the STB changes your aspect ratio from 16:9 to 4:3.

If your box is permanently set to 16:9 then when you watch an SD channel you will manually have to stretch the image (presumably with your TV's image settings) in order to get it to fill the screen. This can become quite monotonous.

Due to the lack of processing between changing channels, the HDMI connection does not need to reset itself.

Essentially you trade no popping/handshaking for the inconvenience of having to manually stretch your image.

At least with FIOS...
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post #382 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 08:32 PM
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okay, for the record: you can't turn 120 Hz on and off, the refresh rate is inherent in the design. you are turning on and off the motion enhancement processing, MotionFlow, in this case.

....please continue on...


TVbc

iirc afaik fwiw imo
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post #383 of 4672 Old 05-12-2009, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladebarrier View Post

Press menu. Go to Picture. Scroll down to "Advanced Settings". Hit the "enter" key, the middle + sign in the middle of the arrow buttons on the remote. Make sure "Game Mode" is set to "off". Set "Motion Flow" to "Normal" or "High". You're now in 120hz mode.

You'll need to set this individually, for each input you have. So you can have your dvd input set for it on, and cable for it off, and your xbox/ps3 for it in gaming mode, if they have separate connections. I think every input keeps it's own setup, so you should adjust colors, brightness, etc, for all of them, instead of thinking one will dictate all of them.

//Edit, I found that in some scenes in "planet earth blu ray", and in "the dark knight", I really enjoy the 120hz. The snow leopard scene in PE Disc 1, where it's running down the side of the mountain, really makes the cat stand out and look sharp and almost 3-D. Lower speed movies, I find it's not that interesting to have it on, and for movies that don't do justice to the tv's resolution, there's not much difference at all.

///If you have a blu-ray player, and you haven't seen planet earth in 1080p, at least rent the first disc as a tribute to your new screen. Then play with 120hz and decide what you think. It's a feast for the eyes.

120hz has a benefit for games as well.

Street Fighter 4 looks like absolute butter. It really is beautiful on this set, unfortunately my brightness settings (Backlight 2, Brightness 48) don't translate well into darker games and result in horrible black crush....still working on that one...

Madden 2009 as well. I play with MotionFlow on high for that one, simply unbelievable how 3-D and smooth everything is. Its like you are actually on the field. Madden is utterly beautiful on this screen.
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post #384 of 4672 Old 05-13-2009, 01:50 AM
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Since auto dim is no longer an issue, I'm ordering a couple 52V5100s this weekend. I stopped watching TV since 2002, so only HD content will be displayed via bluray or pc. Occasional gaming. It should fit the bill nicely.

"I should really see what dB levels I'm pushing. Long as it can't foam my beer during a movie we are ok "
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post #385 of 4672 Old 05-13-2009, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by TVbc View Post

okay, for the record: you can't turn 120 Hz on and off, the refresh rate is inherent in the design. you are turning on and off the motion enhancement processing, MotionFlow, in this case.

....please continue on...


TVbc

If that were true, and it's not, then I would be able to connect my PC to the monitor at 120hz.

120hz, or 240hz, on lcd panels are "features" and not realistic specs that can be compared directly to say a CRT. If your logic were true, than the 2ms lcd panels, that now exist, would be marketed as 480hz units, which they are not.

....please continue on....

/If you're going to bring up the ms refresh rate of grey-to-grey, as an arguement, you're going down the wrong road.
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post #386 of 4672 Old 05-13-2009, 06:35 AM
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Bladebarrier,

My understanding is that the display outputs 120hz, regardless of whether or not it can actually accept a true 120hz feed (which, as you have stated, it cannot).

The only benefit this provides stems from the fact that 120 is the least-common-multiple of 24 and 30. The display is going to push 120hz regardless of the input; how it gets there is what matters.

You can enable Cinemotion to apply 3:2 pulldown and/or Motionflow to average the frames and insert new "in-between" frames. Or you can go native and the TV merely multiplies the frames as-is (5x for 24fps, 4x for 30fps).

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...new pics on the way...
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post #387 of 4672 Old 05-13-2009, 07:05 AM
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Bladebarrier,

My understanding is that the display outputs 120hz, regardless of whether or not it can actually accept a true 120hz feed (which, as you have stated, it cannot).

The only benefit this provides stems from the fact that 120 is the least-common-multiple of 24 and 30. The display is going to push 120hz regardless of the input; how it gets there is what matters.

You can enable Cinemotion to apply 3:2 pulldown and/or Motionflow to average the frames and insert new "in-between" frames. Or you can go native and the TV merely multiplies the frames as-is (5x for 24fps, 4x for 30fps).

Correct. The 3:2 pulldown allows 24hz to fall into place as an even multiple. As it's really just repeating the frames in between, and as LCD pixels are either on or off, when compared to say a CRT which actually refreshes no matter if the signal has told it to change the image or not, it's more of a timing issue than an actual 120hz refresh rate.

The Motionflow is what really engages "120hz" on an LCD, as it can produce new frames in between, allowing for synthesized smoothing. Sadly, no LCD can properly achieve the "ms" timings that companies advertise these days, as consumer grade LCD's are now measured in grey-to-grey refresh rates, which is an ambiguous, if not outright dishonest, measurement.

/EDIT: I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining. I love my v5100. I just think there's a lot of misinformation about LCD's caused by the marketing of them. If an LCD could really produce 120 frames per second, it would be as smooth as a 120hz CRT monitor, which is certainly not the case.
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post #388 of 4672 Old 05-13-2009, 07:55 AM
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Gurus,

Any inputs/suggestions on post #371. I spoke to Sony yesterday about picture sliding left to right only when using dish and not when using dvd player. She said in that case they can't help because TV works fine with DVD player.

Meanwhile I have ordered HD receiver and hdmi cables. Should I try to fix this one or should I excahnge the set with another one before 30 days?

Thanks in advance.
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post #389 of 4672 Old 05-13-2009, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by kk531 View Post

Gurus,

Any inputs/suggestions on post #371. I spoke to Sony yesterday about picture sliding left to right only when using dish and not when using dvd player. She said in that case they can't help because TV works fine with DVD player.

Meanwhile I have ordered HD receiver and hdmi cables. Should I try to fix this one or should I excahnge the set with another one before 30 days?

Thanks in advance.

never heard of this problem on a LCD before, it sounds like its your STB that is to blame if other devices like a DVD work fine IMO

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #390 of 4672 Old 05-13-2009, 09:49 AM
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I had some shifting that kk531 is talking about. I only saw it a few times and wasn't sure if it was just the channel I was on or perhaps a bad signal sent by the cable company. I'll watch more closely tonight to see if it is still happening.
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