Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 127 - AVS Forum
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post #3781 of 4228 Old 12-19-2012, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by amisfit View Post

Good news! The portable device that Leo Bodnar was working on to test input lag and response time of any LCD screen with HDMI input is now available to purchase on his website! I just ordered mine and will update this forum on how well it works once I've gotten it. It's kind of pricey at $110.17 not including shipping from the UK but if it works as advertised I think it will be worth it to have it. It will practically fit in your pocket and uses only 2 AA batteries! It also supposedly has better than 1 millisecond accuracy. I hope it works! Here's a link to the website where you can purchase it:
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=89&products_id=212
I'm going to be using this device a lot once I get it! It will beat lugging a laptop and camera around to test TV's with!
I'll try and post as much test results I get with all the currently sold TV's in my local Best Buy, Target, and any other store I can get to. Of course I'll be testing the device's accuracy on my own TV's that I've tested against a CRT with before that to verify that it works like it should.

Ditto. I ordered mine yesterday. Who knows when it will come, but I will test it against my Dell 2312HM which apparently has no input lag. I will also test it against my new Panasonic TC-L42E50, so anyone who is still looking for a 42" (47" model also available) may be pleased.

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post #3782 of 4228 Old 12-20-2012, 05:59 AM
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http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=89&products_id=212&zenid=14d807753599fd234f85696c4fbaa4a2
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post #3783 of 4228 Old 12-20-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masamunecyrus View Post

Ditto. I ordered mine yesterday. Who knows when it will come, but I will test it against my Dell 2312HM which apparently has no input lag. I will also test it against my new Panasonic TC-L42E50, so anyone who is still looking for a 42" (47" model also available) may be pleased.

Yes, please keep us posted on that Panasonic. I'm hoping it's a good one!
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post #3784 of 4228 Old 12-20-2012, 05:26 PM
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FINALLY. If this device truly works, then we gamers are NO LONGER in the dark ages with this dreaded input lag demon of death!

What needs to be done is for someone to make a thread that not only lists Sub-1-Frame lag HDTV's, but also use the same thread to list 2 frame, 3 frame, and 4 and 5 frame TV's, not just for people who may not be nearly as sensitive to lag as someone like me, but mainly for people who are interested in a particular TV, yet need info on its lag amount so they can have confidence in their purchase. (the top section of the thread could be devoted to HDTV's that are sub-1 frame, and the bottom section could be devoted to HDTV's that we should avoid, and list their amount of lag beside of them for all to see).

If this little device is accurate, then it truly is a step forward in human progress for people who prefer gameplay over shiny HD graphics.
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post #3785 of 4228 Old 12-21-2012, 03:30 AM
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Awesome deal on the 42/47E50 posted in the great LCD deals found forum. If you've been holding out for 1 of these models this is the deal for you.
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post #3786 of 4228 Old 12-21-2012, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Greater Malison View Post

Awesome deal on the 42/47E50 posted in the great LCD deals found forum. If you've been holding out for 1 of these models this is the deal for you.

Is there a test result for this model? Having trouble locating it in this thread.
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post #3787 of 4228 Old 12-21-2012, 11:04 AM
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I'm so happy that Leo has the device for sale now. Just bought one yesterday and it already shipped. Should have it next week!

I'll let the other guys test the accuracy of it, meanwhile I'll bring it to best buy to take measurements of the TVs
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post #3788 of 4228 Old 12-21-2012, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amisfit View Post

Good news! The portable device that Leo Bodnar was working on to test input lag and response time of any LCD screen with HDMI input is now available to purchase on his website! I just ordered mine and will update this forum on how well it works once I've gotten it. It's kind of pricey at $110.17 not including shipping from the UK but if it works as advertised I think it will be worth it to have it. It will practically fit in your pocket and uses only 2 AA batteries! It also supposedly has better than 1 millisecond accuracy. I hope it works! Here's a link to the website where you can purchase it:
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=89&products_id=212
I'm going to be using this device a lot once I get it! It will beat lugging a laptop and camera around to test TV's with!
I'll try and post as much test results I get with all the currently sold TV's in my local Best Buy, Target, and any other store I can get to. Of course I'll be testing the device's accuracy on my own TV's that I've tested against a CRT with before that to verify that it works like it should.
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Originally Posted by beerninja View Post

I'm so happy that Leo has the device for sale now. Just bought one yesterday and it already shipped. Should have it next week!
I'll let the other guys test the accuracy of it, meanwhile I'll bring it to best buy to take measurements of the TVs

Awesome. Just be sure to put those TV's in game mode, or turn off anything that could increase lag so that we can see them at their best. Also, it would be great if both of you guys could measure even TV's as small as 32 inches. I myself am curious about the Full-Array Backlit Samsung 32 inch TV's (I think they have 1:1 pixel and a game mode, but also have a stupid panel lottery). Anyway, Thanks!
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post #3789 of 4228 Old 12-22-2012, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

Awesome. Just be sure to put those TV's in game mode, or turn off anything that could increase lag so that we can see them at their best. Also, it would be great if both of you guys could measure even TV's as small as 32 inches. I myself am curious about the Full-Array Backlit Samsung 32 inch TV's (I think they have 1:1 pixel and a game mode, but also have a stupid panel lottery). Anyway, Thanks!

I'm actually looking for a TV in the 32-40 inch range so you can be sure I'll be testing all the 32 inch TV's the various store employees will let me test.

I did find out there is a limitation to the device. They sell 2 different versions. One that outputs in 1080p, and another that outputs in 720p. So depending on which one you get you can only test in one resolution. According to a customer service reply they sent me regarding this they said the only reason they have a 720p version is to satisfy customer demand for it. They say they have not found any difference in lag when they have done tests in the different resolutions. Here is the full text from that conversation I had with them:

My email to them:
This is regarding my Order**** for the Video Input Lag tester. I didn't notice that there was a option to select the output resolution when I originally placed my order. Will I be getting the 1080p or 720p output version? I would like the 1080p output version. Will I be able to return the item if it is the wrong one and exchange it for the other version? And what is your return policy in general for this item? Sorry to ask after ordering.

Their reply:
Hi,

Sorry for any confusion caused by this. The default setting is 1080p which is what you will have, however some customers have stated they would prefer 720p for testing screens for PS3 and Xbox. From our own testing it doesn't make any difference to the lag regardless of the resolution however to keep these customers happy we have given them the option to have 720p anyway.

If you simply change your mind you can return the device for a full refund within 7 working days of receiving the item. After this 7 days if you feel the goods aren't as described, not fit for purpose or faulty you can return the device for a full refund.



Best Regards

John Beeson

Leo Bodnar
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Silverstone
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post #3790 of 4228 Old 12-22-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by amisfit View Post

I'm actually looking for a TV in the 32-40 inch range so you can be sure I'll be testing all the 32 inch TV's the various store employees will let me test.
I did find out there is a limitation to the device. They sell 2 different versions. One that outputs in 1080p, and another that outputs in 720p. So depending on which one you get you can only test in one resolution. According to a customer service reply they sent me regarding this they said the only reason they have a 720p version is to satisfy customer demand for it. They say they have not found any difference in lag when they have done tests in the different resolutions. Here is the full text from that conversation I had with them:
My email to them:
This is regarding my Order**** for the Video Input Lag tester. I didn't notice that there was a option to select the output resolution when I originally placed my order. Will I be getting the 1080p or 720p output version? I would like the 1080p output version. Will I be able to return the item if it is the wrong one and exchange it for the other version? And what is your return policy in general for this item? Sorry to ask after ordering.
Their reply:
Hi,
Sorry for any confusion caused by this. The default setting is 1080p which is what you will have, however some customers have stated they would prefer 720p for testing screens for PS3 and Xbox. From our own testing it doesn't make any difference to the lag regardless of the resolution however to keep these customers happy we have given them the option to have 720p anyway.
If you simply change your mind you can return the device for a full refund within 7 working days of receiving the item. After this 7 days if you feel the goods aren't as described, not fit for purpose or faulty you can return the device for a full refund.
Best Regards
John Beeson
Leo Bodnar
Unit 15 Silverstone Circuit
Silverstone
Northants
NN12 8TL

I don't think you should have a problem. I've noticed that even most modern 720p HDTV's will accept a 1080p signal and downscale it, so you will be able to easily test even 720p HDTV's no problem. I myself am really curious to see what the LG, Panasonic, and Samsung HDTV's can deliver in terms of lag, whether they are 720p or 1080p and/or 3D.

Thanks for your willingness to test these TV's! We consumers are very grateful.
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post #3791 of 4228 Old 12-23-2012, 12:17 AM
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Hi everyone,if anyone as the 47lm640 lg tv,could you do the lag test on this as I've just brought one and it lags on all modes and only slightly on game mode! Thanks for your help and happy Xmas and new year everyone
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post #3792 of 4228 Old 12-23-2012, 02:11 AM
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most modern 720p HDTV's
There are modern HDTVs that do not offer FullHD? Sounds like crap to me.

I'd like to add that it is useful to test at different resolutions (e.g.: FullHD as usual signal source, 576p for DVDs and whatever resolution you will use), as a plain scaler may take additional processing time. As long as you display the content pixel by pixel there shouldn't be any difference in the lag no matter what the resolution is feeded to the display.
Low resolution TV-Sets (that are all below 1920x1080), will most likely take some time to rescale FullHD content. It's just a question how much time they need.

Another not testable problem is the display of 1080i content. Interlaced signals will always cause a single (half) frame lag.

To add something to the posting of nintygaming: Only gamers have to care about the lag - if they have to care about it at all. Reason: As long as the audio signal is delayed at the same amount as the video signal it does not influence your movie experience at all. Audio and video output has to be synchronized. It doesn't matter if it is 16ms late or even 120ms late as long as it is sync'ed.
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post #3793 of 4228 Old 12-23-2012, 04:11 AM
 
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Figured I would post letting everyone know that I will be purchasing the Samsung 32C450 (720p) and will be receiving it tomorrow (Amazon). The sole purpose is to test and return. It'll give me something to do until the new LG and Panny sets are released :P

I may also be purchasing the 32C530 once this unit is returned if the LG and Panny sets aren't out by then.
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post #3794 of 4228 Old 12-23-2012, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by amisfit View Post

I'll try and post as much test results I get with all the currently sold TV's in my local Best Buy, Target, and any other store I can get to. Of course I'll be testing the device's accuracy on my own TV's that I've tested against a CRT with before that to verify that it works like it should.

I forgot to mention that you should probably be aware that not all Panasonic LCD/LED use the same IPS panels. There's a panel lottery going on this year it seems. Initially it was believed that they were only using LG S-IPS panels in their LCD/LED line, but now I've been informed by an employee on high def junkies that they may also be using their own ALPHA brand (though not as frequently, and possibly only on early productions so that the early reviews were positive).

So this means that one 32" Panny will have an ALPHA-IPS, and the other will have a LG S-IPS. Bunch of crap I know, but if you test two of the same size and come up with different numbers, then it would be nice if you could check the sticker code on the boxes or back of the panels to see what the different codes are, so that we can avoid the panel lottery and get the ALPHA versions (MUCH less input lag due to not using RTC, something that is used on S-IPS).
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post #3795 of 4228 Old 12-23-2012, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ThomasSMTT View Post

There are modern HDTVs that do not offer FullHD? Sounds like crap to me.
I'd like to add that it is useful to test at different resolutions (e.g.: FullHD as usual signal source, 576p for DVDs and whatever resolution you will use), as a plain scaler may take additional processing time. As long as you display the content pixel by pixel there shouldn't be any difference in the lag no matter what the resolution is feeded to the display.
Low resolution TV-Sets (that are all below 1920x1080), will most likely take some time to rescale FullHD content. It's just a question how much time they need.
Another not testable problem is the display of 1080i content. Interlaced signals will always cause a single (half) frame lag.
To add something to the posting of nintygaming: Only gamers have to care about the lag - if they have to care about it at all. Reason: As long as the audio signal is delayed at the same amount as the video signal it does not influence your movie experience at all. Audio and video output has to be synchronized. It doesn't matter if it is 16ms late or even 120ms late as long as it is sync'ed.

Not trying to get into a debate here, but FULLHD is a term coined by Sony to make 720p sound like SDTV, when in fact 720p is High Definition, albeit not as high as 1080p (if its not HD, then broadcasters of 720p and 1080i are lying by calling their channels HD).

In regards to scaling, the guy who made this lag tester said that the lag results have been the same whether in 720p or 1080p. And yes, audio/video sync is not a problem with movie watchers. However, controller/display sync is the issue for gamers. Press the jump button and Mario jumps 50-100ms too late, your dead. I want Mario to jump the instant I press the jump button, and I will accept no less simply because I grew up playing NES/SNES games with zero lag, and no new shiny HDTV is going to convince me that gameplay is less important than graphics. (hence the reason why I got the L32X1, which has roughly 3 or 4 milliseconds of lag at the most on its worst day. I could possibly accept 16ms, but that's my limit unless it was proven to me that 32ms (2 frames) did not affect my gameplay. I have however tried 50-60ms on a Plasma and it DID affect my gameplay significantly, horribly loose. Any higher than 16ms (in my opinion) is just too much for someone who grew up on a lag free CRT playing NES games with INSTANT response....the way it was meant to be, and the way it should be).
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post #3796 of 4228 Old 12-23-2012, 02:03 PM
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It seems I'm damned....when it comes to displays anyways smile.gif

I'm still using my tried and true and "gets image retention at the drop of a hat in the mid grey shades" Westinghouse W37W1 from 2005ish....... 37" is as large as I can go.

I tried the LG super thin LED passive 3D sets....at 42"...........great PC Monitor use, but 42" was just too big frown.gif 37" is perfect...40" is...well,probably
too big but if its all I could do.....37 is ideal.

I want thin....thin bezel, etc. IF only LG made that set in a 37 or 40......I know everyone says "just tget the Panny LED"......problem is I hate paying THAT MUCH money for
a set with basically no features....I mean ok if that is what it is, then great....but.....well...is there anything out there suitable for use as a PC monitor, which means
low lag/no lag......my 2 year old LED sharp's game mode works great, and the westy is fine, the LG42 I had to return worked fine.......but was too large.

Samsung's at 37" or 40"? Thin is what I'm after too.....thin bezel if possible/thin depth...(due to desk space, every saved inch helps)

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post #3797 of 4228 Old 12-24-2012, 10:01 AM
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ok I admit not reading all 127 pages and may have missed the answer

I am not a gamer or real worried about micro seconds lag on video

but sound esp when two tv are on the same channel is my problem
I am hearing a big delay like several seconds or 4 to 6 words between tv's

output sound delay was very noticeable and objectionable both on sat [dish] and now on att universe
both on the old wega tube hd tv vs the sharp tube tv and the new samsung led/lcd and the sharp

are the boxes from universe the cause or is it all in the tv or some of each ?

btw the tv's are about equal distant from me so sound waves thru the air is not the problem
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post #3798 of 4228 Old 12-27-2012, 02:15 PM
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What about the LG 47LS4500? I'm sure someones tested it but I didn't see it in the last 3 or 4 pages

And whats the ST50 and GT50's time for comparison? 3-4ms? or is more like 9? I don't remember
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post #3799 of 4228 Old 12-28-2012, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

What about the LG 47LS4500? I'm sure someones tested it but I didn't see it in the last 3 or 4 pages
And whats the ST50 and GT50's time for comparison? 3-4ms? or is more like 9? I don't remember
http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-ST50-TX-P50ST50B-P42ST50B-P55ST50B-P65ST50B-65-Inch-3D-Plasma-TV-Review_302/Review.html : \ 47.9ms
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post #3800 of 4228 Old 12-29-2012, 12:02 PM
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I also would like measurements on the Vizio M3D0KD (where do you buy one of these?) the Sony KDL46EX640 (I know the 42EX440 is good) and the Toshiba 46L5200U
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post #3801 of 4228 Old 12-29-2012, 01:46 PM
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I would like to know the input lag on the lg 47lm640t thanks smile.gif
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post #3802 of 4228 Old 12-30-2012, 09:53 AM
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I feel like I want to give up. I've read so much, and the more I read the more depressed I get.
I just wanted a decent TV for gaming (street fighter /pc). It can be anywhere from 40 to 50", no need for 3d, smart functions, SD scalability or anything. But it turned out that this was harder to find than it sounded.
I can't get a plasma, because of IR (i'm seriously going to have this exact screen for thousands of hours , theres no way it's not going to be an issue).
But any LED i've looked has either extremely bad clouding/blacks/ghosting or input lag. Or all of them. Seemed like PFL5507 would've been the perfect TV, but then it turned out that its UV2A panel was pretty much for reviews only, and post-summer TVs actually have the terrible PVA panel.
So I'm here, as there's nowhere else for me to go. I'm going to be asking for help, maybe I've missed something. Is there really not a single decent panel with 1frame input lag?
This probably won't get an answer, but still thanks if you've read this.
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post #3803 of 4228 Old 12-30-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeForceFX5200 View Post

I feel like I want to give up. I've read so much, and the more I read the more depressed I get.
I just wanted a decent TV for gaming (street fighter /pc). It can be anywhere from 40 to 50", no need for 3d, smart functions, SD scalability or anything. But it turned out that this was harder to find than it sounded.
I can't get a plasma, because of IR (i'm seriously going to have this exact screen for thousands of hours , theres no way it's not going to be an issue).
But any LED i've looked has either extremely bad clouding/blacks/ghosting or input lag. Or all of them. Seemed like PFL5507 would've been the perfect TV, but then it turned out that its UV2A panel was pretty much for reviews only, and post-summer TVs actually have the terrible PVA panel.
So I'm here, as there's nowhere else for me to go. I'm going to be asking for help, maybe I've missed something. Is there really not a single decent panel with 1frame input lag?
This probably won't get an answer, but still thanks if you've read this.
Sony KDL-EX440? if you can afford the HX850 it will have a good image but idk about lag ^3 posts back I asked about the 640 so I don't know if its better or worse than the 440 for lag. Cnet also said that while the EX640 was an ok TV that the Vizio M3D0KD was a little better in every way but idk about lag on it either.
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post #3804 of 4228 Old 12-30-2012, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeForceFX5200 View Post

I feel like I want to give up. I've read so much, and the more I read the more depressed I get.
I just wanted a decent TV for gaming (street fighter /pc). It can be anywhere from 40 to 50", no need for 3d, smart functions, SD scalability or anything. But it turned out that this was harder to find than it sounded.
I can't get a plasma, because of IR (i'm seriously going to have this exact screen for thousands of hours , theres no way it's not going to be an issue).
But any LED i've looked has either extremely bad clouding/blacks/ghosting or input lag. Or all of them. Seemed like PFL5507 would've been the perfect TV, but then it turned out that its UV2A panel was pretty much for reviews only, and post-summer TVs actually have the terrible PVA panel.
So I'm here, as there's nowhere else for me to go. I'm going to be asking for help, maybe I've missed something. Is there really not a single decent panel with 1frame input lag?
This probably won't get an answer, but still thanks if you've read this.

Unless your willing to hunt down a top-of-the-line CRT from many years ago, the only panels worth your consideration are ALPHA-IPS panels, and sadly it looks as if Panasonic has abandoned them due to constantly loosing money and can no longer afford the technology that ALPHA provides. I might be wrong and they might bring back ALPHA tech for 2013, we will have to wait and see (CES 2013 is in 7 days, so stay tuned). But until then, your best bet is to hunt down a 2011 Panasonic LED 37" with ALPHA IPS. (don't be fooled by the 2012 models, they are IPS panels, but not ALPHA-IPS, and are using RTC chips which increase lag significantly). The reason I say 37" is because I don't think they made ALPHA in anything other than 32" and 37". This sucks because it means that they are using S-IPS in all others, and their S-IPS panels are outsourced, and contain RTC chips which equals higher lag, much higher.

The 2011 ALPHA panels that were not 3D averaged 10ms of input lag, so again, they are your best bet if your willing to go lower than 40". You will have to constantly look on eBay or Amazon though for a used or new model, or try google shopping for it. But these are edge-lit LED back-lighting, so you might not like that. HOWEVER, your never going to find another panel or another brand that can keep the input lag as low as the ALPHA technology can. I might be wrong, but I have yet to read about a VA panel that does not use RTC chips, and remember, RTC (respone-time-compensation) is primarily what drives up the lag on these VA panels. They use these chips because VA has poor motion handling, so they use the RTC chip to compensate for that problem. Input lag and RTC are directly related........the more RTC used, the higher the input lag.

TV technology (for gamers) has stunk ever since HDTV's came onto the scene. Why? Because the HD era introduced lag. It wasn't really bad at first, but as time went on, lag got worse and worse. And now in 2012, lag is still getting worse. Why? Because instead of TV manufacturers seeking "the best" ways to improve pixel response in their VA and IPS panels, they instead result to using cheap tricks, such as RTC to compensate for pixel response. And wham, more input lag. And its getting worse and worse every year. As a result, we might have to wait until OLED becomes available, because I've heard that OLED has no motion problems, and if this is true, then RTC and other cheap tricks should not be used in these TV's, and thus lag will be much lower. Of course I'll probably be wrong and these TV manufacturers will still find a way to screw it up, perhaps with slow post-processing or forced post-processing that will give upwards of 200ms of lag. OUCH.

Good luck with what you decide. If only Plasma didn't have IR....you would be all set PROVIDING you could find one being sold today without lag....hard to find.
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post #3805 of 4228 Old 12-30-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

..........
I was starting to dig really deep, and was reading up on alpha just as you posted. And wow, what a response I got! Although, I was afraid I might hear something like that. But not all is lost yet! CES 2013, as you've mentioned, is right around the corner. And if I was looking forward before, man oh man am I shivering from excitement and fear now!

Oh, one more thing. I did read that S-IPS is supposedly better when it comes to pixel / input lag, over VA. Wouldn't any S-IPS TV have a low input lag? I.e. I've heard TVs like 42lk450 with S-IPS (well, if you're lucky in the panel lottery) seem to have no ghosting, 1frame input lag. The only problem was that this particular model seemed to have super bad problems with clouding and blacks (which, I do understand are general problem for IPS, but these blacks were insane!).
Seems in a way a bit nearsighted for TV makers to not care about input lag. If anything, this is an opportunity. Make an ad campaign that a line of your TVs are perfect for gaming, taunt that other manufacturers have many times higher input lag, etc. You'd think it's an opportunity, as consoles like xbox360 and PS3 have been extremely popular, and these people are certainly not using LCD monitors to play on, but no. No TV manufacturer seems to use this.

ATM the best pretender in my mind is the 46PFL5507 with the LTA460HW PSA panel. At first I freaked out when I saw the 40" (which was tested to have 1frame lag on both panels!) "makeover" into a big fat cloud, but then I noticed it uses a different panel from its bigger brothers. The 55PFL5507 with the same LTA550HW PVA panel was tested by a shoryuken.com member, while it wasn't the new lag tester tool or oscillometer, it did seem to be credible (or maybe not so much) 16,7MS above CRT (compared his lappy later). Which to me on IPS277 *cough* 'gaming' monitor (overdriven at 9ms GTG 20-80-20) seems to be totally acceptable. I know this wont be as good as I'd like (blacks/contrast), but there's not much to choose from, and at least if all fails, this will be my plan B.

[edit] After seeing that polish review / posts of owners, I am a bit scared! game mode screenshots.. ah this is just getting confusing.
... Well. There's always ST50 and lots of hope it wont buzz/HSE/v. band/burn in.. Ah.. oh well.

Also, the way I understand RTC / overdrive is less about input lag, and more about the pixel response time. Seems like the over-voltage makes the crystal initially turn faster which alleviates most of the ghosting problems in exchange for color accuracy and such.

Really, thanks a lot though. Since you took time out of your day to help me, I appreciate it.
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Originally Posted by GeForceFX5200 View Post

I was starting to dig really deep, and was reading up on alpha just as you posted. And wow, what a response I got! Although, I was afraid I might hear something like that. But not all is lost yet! CES 2013, as you've mentioned, is right around the corner. And if I was looking forward before, man oh man am I shivering from excitement and fear now!
Oh, one more thing. I did read that S-IPS is supposedly better when it comes to pixel / input lag, over VA. Wouldn't any S-IPS TV have a low input lag? I.e. I've heard TVs like 42lk450 with S-IPS (well, if you're lucky in the panel lottery) seem to have no ghosting, 1frame input lag. The only problem was that this particular model seemed to have super bad problems with clouding and blacks (which, I do understand are general problem for IPS, but these blacks were insane!).
Seems in a way a bit nearsighted for TV makers to not care about input lag. If anything, this is an opportunity. Make an ad campaign that a line of your TVs are perfect for gaming, taunt that other manufacturers have many times higher input lag, etc. You'd think it's an opportunity, as consoles like xbox360 and PS3 have been extremely popular, and these people are certainly not using LCD monitors to play on, but no. No TV manufacturer seems to use this.
ATM the best pretender in my mind is the 46PFL5507 with the LTA460HW PSA panel. At first I freaked out when I saw the 40" (which was tested to have 1frame lag on both panels!) "makeover" into a big fat cloud, but then I noticed it uses a different panel from its bigger brothers. The 55PFL5507 with the same LTA550HW PVA panel was tested by a shoryuken.com member, while it wasn't the new lag tester tool or oscillometer, it did seem to be credible (or maybe not so much) 16,7MS above CRT (compared his lappy later). Which to me on IPS277 *cough* 'gaming' monitor (overdriven at 9ms GTG 20-80-20) seems to be totally acceptable. I know this wont be as good as I'd like (blacks/contrast), but there's not much to choose from, and at least if all fails, this will be my plan B.
[edit] After seeing that polish review / posts of owners, I am a bit scared! game mode screenshots.. ah this is just getting confusing.
... Well. There's always ST50 and lots of hope it wont buzz/HSE/v. band/burn in.. Ah.. oh well.
Also, the way I understand RTC / overdrive is less about input lag, and more about the pixel response time. Seems like the over-voltage makes the crystal initially turn faster which alleviates most of the ghosting problems in exchange for color accuracy and such.
Really, thanks a lot though. Since you took time out of your day to help me, I appreciate it.

Its my understanding that most S-IPS panels that are more modern are using RTC, while older S-IPS may not (although this is not always the case). And while RTC/Overdrive is less about input lag and more about pixel response, keep in mind that it still delays the input. And the greater the RTC, the greater the delay. It would have been better to improve or totally redesign the panel instead of adding cheap nasty tricks like RTC, but TV manufacturers truly believe that almost all consumer are only going to watch movies/shows, and if they do game, only casually. TV manufacturers don't pay attention to gamers. The only one that really did was Panasonic, but gamers didn't buy their TV's very much. Hence the reason for 2-3 frames of lag in their 2012 line which does not use ALPHA technology.

This whole input lag, motion blur, black level, panel lottery, clouding, bleeding, burn in, IR, dim/bright etc can really make a person sick when searching for a HDTV, I know it did me. Depending on the circumstances, it just might not be worth the trouble. In my opinion, a really patient person could come out a winner if they keep their CRT until OLED hits the market in an affordable fashion, as OLED will serve to fix all those problems that I just mentioned.....with a possible exception to input lag....which has yet to be seen with the upcoming tech.

If you want to know more about RTC, check out some of frito's posts on the topic. He explains in more detail about how it creates crazy amounts of lag in some really extreme cases.
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Originally Posted by GeForceFX5200 View Post

I was starting to dig really deep, and was reading up on alpha just as you posted. And wow, what a response I got! Although, I was afraid I might hear something like that. But not all is lost yet! CES 2013, as you've mentioned, is right around the corner. And if I was looking forward before, man oh man am I shivering from excitement and fear now!
Oh, one more thing. I did read that S-IPS is supposedly better when it comes to pixel / input lag, over VA. Wouldn't any S-IPS TV have a low input lag? I.e. I've heard TVs like 42lk450 with S-IPS (well, if you're lucky in the panel lottery) seem to have no ghosting, 1frame input lag. The only problem was that this particular model seemed to have super bad problems with clouding and blacks (which, I do understand are general problem for IPS, but these blacks were insane!).
Seems in a way a bit nearsighted for TV makers to not care about input lag. If anything, this is an opportunity. Make an ad campaign that a line of your TVs are perfect for gaming, taunt that other manufacturers have many times higher input lag, etc. You'd think it's an opportunity, as consoles like xbox360 and PS3 have been extremely popular, and these people are certainly not using LCD monitors to play on, but no. No TV manufacturer seems to use this.

... Well. There's always ST50 and lots of hope it wont buzz/HSE/v. band/burn in.. Ah.. oh well.
Also, the way I understand RTC / overdrive is less about input lag, and more about the pixel response time. Seems like the over-voltage makes the crystal initially turn faster which alleviates most of the ghosting problems in exchange for color accuracy and such.
Really, thanks a lot though. Since you took time out of your day to help me, I appreciate it.
I went UT50, get the $200 5 year Bestbuy warranty it covers burn in and every thing. Do you seriously only play that 1 game? I play a lot of xbox but between Halo games, cod games, gears and TV I think I vary enough not to have problems.
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If you want to know more about RTC, check out some of frito's posts on the topic. He explains in more detail about how it creates crazy amounts of lag in some really extreme cases.
Thanks, will do!
Quote:
I went UT50, get the $200 5 year Bestbuy warranty it covers burn in and every thing. Do you seriously only play that 1 game? I play a lot of xbox but between Halo games, cod games, gears and TV I think I vary enough not to have problems.
Well. I live in Europe. So no best buy for me. Also, the problem doesn't really end with burn in though. And ye, I'm just mad for street fighter !
It seems like every point in this is in LED favor for me personaly.
  • Bright as hell room
  • prefer exaggerated colors
  • prefer bright whites
  • most of the time going to have a very similar IR prone image
  • viewing angles dont matter at all
  • i'm going to sit pretty close to the TV too (maybe 2-3meters or so / 5-7feet), so a 46 would be perfect fit for me, 50" is definitelly too big.
  • power usage is a big plus in my book, as the W over here is very expensive and just keeps getting more and more expensive
  • all of the ABL, buzz, line bleed, dithering, all the ST50 troubles with vertical streaks, etc sounds to me way more worrisome than a little bit of clouding and barely less inky blacks (which in a white room wont even be an issue).
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post #3809 of 4228 Old 12-31-2012, 02:39 PM
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Thanks, will do!
Well. I live in Europe. So no best buy for me. Also, the problem doesn't really end with burn in though. And ye, I'm just mad for street fighter !
It seems like every point in this is in LED favor for me personaly.
  • Bright as hell room
  • prefer exaggerated colors
  • prefer bright whites
  • most of the time going to have a very similar IR prone image
  • viewing angles dont matter at all
  • i'm going to sit pretty close to the TV too (maybe 2-3meters or so / 5-7feet), so a 46 would be perfect fit for me, 50" is definitelly too big.
  • power usage is a big plus in my book, as the W over here is very expensive and just keeps getting more and more expensive
  • all of the ABL, buzz, line bleed, dithering, all the ST50 troubles with vertical streaks, etc sounds to me way more worrisome than a little bit of clouding and barely less inky blacks (which in a white room wont even be an issue).
Well I'll have to say that I was afraid of the bottom 3 also and my 50" really isn't that bad I sit maybe 7 feet away instead of 5 feet from my previous 32". Dithering like I have read is only noticeable about 1 foot away from the TV, my UT doesn't buzz sooooo idk what thats about and ABL is a lot less aggressive than I thought but it's still there. Last mine came with a sticker that said if I use it for 5 hours a day that it will cost me $21 a year... Who the hell says these use to much power???

But the bright room IR prone stuff and ABL you probably should go with LCD I didn't realize you were in such a bright room
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post #3810 of 4228 Old 01-01-2013, 10:53 AM
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My previous panel was 2011 Model IPS-Alpha>> Pany 37E30E(EU version) has very low input-lag(10ms versus TN panel!!) and 33/35ms standard mode versus TN panel too

Than I was sold this panel and bought Tosh 42WL863(EU version) well as it seems that it has more faster my Pany 37!!!

I assume that this panel(Edge-LED-with "LGD" Module)one of the fastest panel in "LCD" category!

++

Tosh 46SV685&Tosh 42WL863

Panasonic BluRay BDT320EG&Toshiba BluRay BDX5400

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