Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dathon View Post

I have the 52xv645u, calibrated with the Spears & Munsil Blu-ray. Lag seems non-existent to me. Overall picture quality looks great most of the time, with good black levels, thanks to the dynamic backlight "Dynalight". Backlight is very even on my panel, with only a little bleed in top right and lower left corner. Hardly noticeably.

The only problem I have been noticing is terrible pixel response time while gaming. Whenever I play a game like Assassin's Creed, Fable 2, or any 1st person game, and turn left/right...I get terrible motion blurring. Even if I turn slowly, everything in the background goes out-of-focus and gets blurred. Once I stop turning, everything gets sharp again. Is this because of the pixel response time? I've tried turning on/off Game mode, Clearscan 120Hz, etc. Nothing seems to help. It's almost unbearable trying to play these types of games, when everything becomes blurry while turning.

yes its due to poor pixel level response time, setting the TV to a normal picture mode and turning on clearframe 120hz should improve and even remove the problem, at least it did on the Toshy 40xv645u I owned for about a week but at that point input lag was not severe but it was definitely noticeable

this and color banding were the 2 reason's why i did not keep the Toshiba and cannot recommend it to anyone really

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #362 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

So these Sony's and Samsungs are using PVA panels. My question is, when you employ game mode, is your picture substantially worse than when you simply turn off motion processessing while watching TV? Please provide detailed examples. Also, would game mode on a Samsung or Sony TV (PVA panels) look much worse than game-mode or non-game mode on the the LCD TVs that got 4 or 5 controllers (most likely IPS panels that got to excellent game lag ratings in the source you quoted)? Please provide detailed examples. Not super technical explanations, but visual descriptions of how they might differ.

Thanks.

In my personal experience with my Sony 32XBR6 that had an S-PVA and my buddy's Samsung 46B630 that has a AUO PVA panel

the sony showed zero change in picture quality with game mode, Photo mode on the Sony would improve picture quality with a good enough source (like a PC) and performed as good in photo mode as it did in game mode because photo mode disabled all video processing (Noise reductions get disabled, cinemotion is disabled etc.)

here is a thread on Sony BE2 intentional blurring with plently of photo's showing it

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099702




My buddy's Samsung 46B630 is quite similar to the Sony, his PC input was sharper than my Sony's in normal and game modes but switching it to the special PC mode on the HDMI/DVI input also greatly improved picture quality when used with a PC indicating that the Samsungs also use low level blurring like sony's in normal modes and game mode does not shut this off.

as for game mode vs normal mode on a Samsung without AMP turned on, from what i can recall it did not impact picture quality on his 46B630 (A panel)

as for how the best performing TV's look picture quality wise vs sony and samsungs. well that all depends on the model specifically, I can only speak with confidence on model's i've used myself extensively so I will say what i've experienced

keep in mind here that this is to my eyes, I'm not a picky calibrator type but do appreciate an image that can come close to calibrated via a decent calibration disc.

Sony 32XBR6
Pro's
great black levels
good viewing angles for an LCD
great color reproduction
Acceptable motion blur without the use of a motion enhancer (actual pixel response) with the distinct downside of poor black to white pixel response time, it would display light grey ghost trails on dark/black objects moving over a light/white background. this is a side effect if RTC and i do have photo's of it

very fast internal scalier/deinterlacer i tested this thing for input lag in game mode with a composite video input and it was only 10 ms higher than its lowest possible lag setting making it much better than samsungs with lower resolution upscaling speed wise

Con's
Input lag bordering on usable for most people and bad for serious gaming possibility of clouding and flashlighting (my sony had some mild flashlighting, my buddy's samsung has none of the above but everyone knows about how this issue varies with VA panels and tends to go up with bigger screens)

Toshiba 40xv645u

Pro's
good blacks (only in its sweet spot)
best text sharpness i've ever seen on an LCD TV
good color reproduction (out of game/PC modes)
Acceptable motion blur without 120hz clearframe on and out of game mode(for an LCD)

Neutral
good input lag in game/PC modes (but with major drawbacks i will note below)

Con's
Horrendous viewing angles, some of the worst i've ever seen on a modern LCD TV from a name brand, most notably with dark/black images anything not viewed within 15 degrees! of centered results in a strong purple color to the blacks
Clearframe 120hz/smooth motion had plenty of artifacting and glitches that were very obvious at times in movies
game/PC modes brought 2 terrible problems to the table
#1 very bad pixel response time with dark transitions, a moving dark image will just smear across the screen like and old non TFT LCD laptop screen from the 90's
#2 bad color range, showing gradients of any of the primary colors would result in tons of banding, more banding than my 6 bit TN PC monitor!


Panasonic 37S1
Pro's
Best input lag you will find in an LCD TV bar none
great color reproduction zero banding with gradient tests (10bit IPS panel)
excellent horizontal viewing angles for an LCD (IPS-Pro panels by IPS-Alpha have for awhile been regarded as the best with viewing angles)
good motion resolution for an LCD (still not as good as TN panels are but better than any VA panel i've used)
no picture mode or setting on this TV will increase input lag, its always low and even running a 720p input into it barely increases input lag so its one of the few 1080p TV's that can upscale 720p and still provide you with 20ms input lag

Neutral
acceptable blacks during the daytime

Con's
Poor blacks at night/in dim conditions (common with IPS LCD's)
less video pre processing than other laggier TV's resulting in a more sharp picture all the time but this has the effect that poor quality and highly compressed video looks anywhere from ok to bad where on a TV like a Sony or Samsung it would still not look great but would look better due to their built in blurring/blending techniques mainly

as for visual evidence of thing's I've been saying thats pretty hard to do because camera's cannot capture what your eye sees most of the time anyways and well 3 out of 4 of those TV's i'm talking about are no longer in my possession
(the samsung is my friends, the Sony i gave to the parents to replace their CRT TV and the Toshiba went back to best buy where it belongs )

i'm not going to speculate or go in depth on other model TV's i've never had a chance to use in a controlled environment without access to a PC to use test programs for blur and stuff of that sort on them because it would be inaccurate to do so

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #363 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 08:29 PM
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I'm getting about 80ms for the 52ex701, I don't see a game mode in the menu. Pics to come.
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post #364 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalAlien View Post

I'm getting about 80ms for the 52ex701, I don't see a game mode in the menu. Pics to come.

ouch yeah thats out of game mode i'm sure

let me look up the manual for your TV, sony used to bury game mode deep into the menus

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #365 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 08:46 PM
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I noticed you get less options when using the PC input so even if it has game mode not sure I can use it for the test but we will see.

EDIT: here is my test, my video camera can use high shutter speeds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tliO9zqCgIQ
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post #366 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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ok

try testing with your picture mode set to Game-standard or Photo-Standard

these modes should disable the following but if they do not disable them

noise reduction OFF
MPEG NR OFF
Motionflow OFF (this will create tons of lag)
Cinemtion OFF (should not matter with a PC input but its not disabled shut it off)

Advanced setings menu
Shut off everything
black corrector
ACE
Auto light limiter
clear white
live color

look forward to the new results and photo's (you don't need to post a ton of them just a few but defiantly take more than a couple for each mode/setting to be able to figure average results

also what is your control display (the PC monitor) and what video card does your PC have?

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #367 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalAlien View Post

I noticed you get less options when using the PC input so even if it has game mode not sure I can use it for the test but we will see.

EDIT: here is my test, my video camera can use high shutter speeds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tliO9zqCgIQ

ohh wow your using the 15 pin VGA PC input?? and you got 80ms??? thats terrible

if you have a DVI to HDMI adapter or DVI to HDMI cable that is the optimal way to connect the TV to a PC, also if your on VGA is it scaling the image to full screen? what resolution are you able to run in clone mode (will likely be limited to your monitors native resolution)

though in my experience with sony and samsung TV's 1920 x 1080 given over the VGA input will result in the lowest possible input lag because those inputs by default have everything disabled that causes lag and at that point input resolution is the only thing that could add lag

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #368 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

yes its due to poor pixel level response time, setting the TV to a normal picture mode and turning on clearframe 120hz should improve and even remove the problem, at least it did on the Toshy 40xv645u I owned for about a week but at that point input lag was not severe but it was definitely noticeable

this and color banding were the 2 reason's why i did not keep the Toshiba and cannot recommend it to anyone really

I tried again normal mode and game mode. Tried turning on clearframe 120Hz. In games, it made no difference and there was still a lot of blur. This TV must have a panel with bad pixel response time. Maybe 8ms or more? I think I will sell this TV or try to get it exchanged. This TV is no good for 1st or 3rd person gaming. For other games or just to watch TV/News, it looks good. But terrible blurring in most games.

So which LCD have good pixel response time for gaming? Or go with Plasma?
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post #369 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

ohh wow your using the 15 pin VGA PC input?? and you got 80ms??? thats terrible

if you have a DVI to HDMI adapter or DVI to HDMI cable that is the optimal way to connect the TV to a PC, also if your on VGA is it scaling the image to full screen? what resolution are you able to run in clone mode (will likely be limited to your monitors native resolution)

test one was VGA to a sony CRT monitor, with DVI/HDMI to the TV.

test two was DVI/VGA to the monitor, with VGA to the PC input on the TV.

I was running on a a very low resolution. like 1024x768 or something. The computer has a ATI 3650
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post #370 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalAlien View Post

test one was VGA to a sony CRT monitor, with DVI/HDMI to the TV.

test two was DVI/VGA to the monitor, with VGA to the PC input on the TV.

I was running on a a very low resolution. like 1024x768 or something. The computer has a ATI 3650

can you raise the resolution when on HDMI to the TV to 1920 x 1080 (or closer at least) you may need to remove EDID pins on your sony CRT monitor to force the resolution onto the monitor, it should be able to do it provided that your CRT monitor is capable of at least 1280 x 1024 the picture will likely look funny though (my viewsonic 17" CRT will display 1920 x 1080 when its forced on it but the left edge of the screen gets messed up due to the electron beam running off the edge of the shadow mask in the CRT)

another easier option is to see if when your giving the TV a lower resolution input over VGA if you can set it to full pixel mode in the screen section of the TV menu so the image will be displayed in a small box on the TV rather than scaled to full screen

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #371 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 09:01 PM
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You get 3 picture modes, standard, vivid, and custom. That is it. Nothing that says game.

The image on the TV was always displayed in a small box full pixel mode.
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post #372 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dathon View Post

I tried again normal mode and game mode. Tried turning on clearframe 120Hz. In games, it made no difference and there was still a lot of blur. This TV must have a panel with bad pixel response time. Maybe 8ms or more? I think I will sell this TV or try to get it exchanged. This TV is no good for 1st or 3rd person gaming. For other games or just to watch TV/News, it looks good. But terrible blurring in most games.

So which LCD have good pixel response time for gaming? Or go with Plasma?

get a Sharp if you want to stick to LCD at that size

otherwise Panny plasma's are good for gaming but you need to read into them and make sure your ok with dealing with making sure you don't burn in the TV

read up in the plasma section of these forums about gaming on Panny plasmas, they are great for gaming but you need to be aware of a few things to make sure you don't jack up the TV

A panny plasma will most-likely have a better overall picture than a similarly priced LCD as well and motion resolution will always be better esp when gaming on the plasma

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #373 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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another thing you can also try is updating its firmware, its unlikely to improve lag but you never know

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu...mdl=KDL52EX701

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #374 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 09:16 PM
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I already disconnected everything I'll try again tomorrow maybe. The PC input seemed to turn almost everything off by default so I don't expect much better results.
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post #375 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalAlien View Post

I already disconnected everything I'll try again tomorrow maybe. The PC input seemed to turn almost everything off by default so I don't expect much better results.

if the TV was up scaling 1024 x 768 to 1920 x 1080 it certainly was introducing input lag but not enough to cause 80ms lag.

based on even worst case scenario I would say the number will drop by 20 ms at most but i could be wrong, my old Sony 32XBR6 would only add 10ms lag when it had to upscale and image


anyways thanks for the results and i would love to see some more tests done if your up for it but I'm very grateful you tested it in the first place its much appreciated, many people don't want to bother testing their TV's for input lag if they don't care or don't want to know about it

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #376 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 09:46 PM
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At least it is in good company.

Quote:


Sharp LC52XS1 110 ms 80 ms (super expensive TV lol)
Sony KDL-40ZX1* 120 ms 70 ms (another super expensive TV)

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post #377 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalAlien View Post

At least it is in good company.

haha yeah, the super expensive TV's often bring super input lag figures

Edit: i feel kind of terrible having to stick your EX701 into the newly created worst TV for gaming section in the top post of this thread i really did have high hopes for that new sharp panel, maybe sony just executed it wrong for gaming and sharp will justify it with their TV's IDK

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #378 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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OK everyone I've revamped the top post dividing TV's into 3 sections

the BEST

the OK (or as i like to call it the gray area)

and the WORST!

I've also added the results from that Italian site to then end of each section to reference probable lag figures of US model's that we have yet to get results on just to give a bigger picture on the state of TV's and input lag and how much it can vary and what the trends are with input lag between brands and models

I color coded the 3 sections titles so make it easier to read/figure everything out and I think its looking pretty good, take a look and please do make suggestions on how i can make it clearer for new people to the thread and input lag research

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #379 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 10:56 PM
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frito,
I just noticed the Sammy I tested isn't posted in the updated last?
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post #380 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus18 View Post

frito,
I just noticed the Sammy I tested isn't posted in the updated last?

oh really? i was afraid that might happen while i was re-arranging the list, link me the results post and ill get it back in there right away

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #381 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
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oh never mind i think i forgot to put that test into the list from the get go, i found it and it will be added asap thanks

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #382 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 11:25 PM
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No problem
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post #383 of 4282 Old 03-04-2010, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus18 View Post

No problem

one of these days maybe tomorrow i really should look through this whole thread to make sure i did not miss any other tests

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #384 of 4282 Old 03-05-2010, 12:37 AM
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Interesting article on game input lag, along with some figures for some games

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...article?page=1

BioShock 2 Frame-rate Locked 133-150ms
BioShock 2 Frame-rate Unlocked 100-150ms
Call of Duty: World at War 66ms-100ms
Dante's Inferno 100ms
Killzone 2 150-183ms
LittleBigPlanet 100ms
Mirror's Edge 133ms
MotorStorm: Pacific Rift 116ms-133ms
Resident Evil 5 100-150ms
Ridge Racer 7 66ms
Street Fighter IV 66ms
Unreal Tournament III 100-133ms
WipEout HD 84ms

That's not counting display lag, I'm pretty sure, although the article does not greatly assure me they pegged their display lag out in the first place.

Seems the difference from one game to the next can be greater than from one Tv to the next.
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post #385 of 4282 Old 03-05-2010, 12:49 AM - Thread Starter
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if that stuff is true and i find it somewhat hard to believe it tbh due to their sort of sketchy measurement methods and the fact that a delay of just 60ms is not only visible to most humans but also audible to the human ear, it really seems unlikely their test methods are correct.

if it is true it just goes to show even more why i despise playing FPS games on a console, i won't do it and I've always chocked it up to the gamepad and that is the main reason. if i cant use a mouse and keyboard and have it function the same as it would in a PC FPS game i won't play it period.


controller lag has been measured and tested before with PC's and good mice with high refresh or update rates if you will have less than 2ms lag

if a certain game has built in lag that's one thing some most certainly do but most PC FPS games are extremely fast.

no matter what way you look at it though display lag just adds on top of everything and if your playing on a TV with 60ms lag and the guy your playing against has 15ms you're still dead before you got a chance to react and shoot at him

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #386 of 4282 Old 03-05-2010, 12:58 AM
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It is true what he says about parallel processing becoming an increasing problem in game lag. John Carmack has spoken about it. being a major problem going forward.

If you are using 2 or 4 cores for game processing on a CPU, it's likely to add more delay than just one.

Also I'm not sure the details, but SLI/Crossfire automatically adds lag due to the way it renders.
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post #387 of 4282 Old 03-05-2010, 01:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky974 View Post

It is true what he says about parallel processing becoming an increasing problem in game lag. John Carmack has spoken about it. being a major problem going forward.

If you are using 2 or 4 cores for game processing on a CPU, it's likely to add more delay than just one.

Also I'm not sure the details, but SLI/Crossfire automatically adds lag due to the way it renders.

interesting stuff, I will take John Carmack's word like it was from god too considering how big of a fan of his games I am, hell ID software got me into playing shooters in the first place

his Engines are top notch and still power the best PC FPS games played today ( source engine is derived from the Quake Engine)

it's getting too late for me and i honestly just browsed through that article real quick and it seemed to be sketchy to me based on what i saw but i'll definitely do some more reading into it

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #388 of 4282 Old 03-05-2010, 02:06 AM
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looking for desktop/pc gaming lcd- whats the lowest lag for 09/10 models?
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post #389 of 4282 Old 03-05-2010, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by frito View Post

if that stuff is true and i find it somewhat hard to believe it tbh due to their sort of sketchy measurement methods and the fact that a delay of just 60ms is not only visible to most humans but also audible to the human ear, it really seems unlikely their test methods are correct.

if it is true it just goes to show even more why i despise playing FPS games on a console, i won't do it and I've always chocked it up to the gamepad and that is the main reason. if i cant use a mouse and keyboard and have it function the same as it would in a PC FPS game i won't play it period.


controller lag has been measured and tested before with PC's and good mice with high refresh or update rates if you will have less than 2ms lag

if a certain game has built in lag that's one thing some most certainly do but most PC FPS games are extremely fast.

no matter what way you look at it though display lag just adds on top of everything and if your playing on a TV with 60ms lag and the guy your playing against has 15ms you're still dead before you got a chance to react and shoot at him

Controller lag is not the same as processing lag, even a good PC will need at least 2 frames to react to user input and change the stuff on screen accordingly (unless the game is rather simple). Add 1 frame to that if the picture is refreshing 60 times per second, double that if the game is running at 30fps. The good news is that developers can, contrary to input lag from flatscreens and input devices, account for this type of lag and design their games around it.

But its not like our brains are lag free...


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Originally Posted by igotlaid_0ff View Post

looking for desktop/pc gaming lcd- whats the lowest lag for 09/10 models?

Take a look at the first post in this thread.
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post #390 of 4282 Old 03-05-2010, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igotlaid_0ff View Post

looking for desktop/pc gaming lcd- whats the lowest lag for 09/10 models?

I highly recommend Panasonic 32/37" 1080p LCD's

I currently use a 37" S1 as a monitor for my PC, others on here are using 32S1's

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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