Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 144 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 01-05-2015, 07:29 AM
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Sorry if I'm bothering you but I cant seem to get any information on the subject. You mentioned gaming is bad on digital signage monitors because of the slow panels they use. What if they have an ips panel? I found this one on amazon it looks like a digital signage monitor but says its a tv. http://www.amazon.com/NEC-E464-46-In...ywords=nec+e46
Thanks. any input will be greatly appreciated these screens look really appealing because of their low lag but don't want to make a mistake.
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Old 01-05-2015, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
The issue is that these displays are made for static images, not moving pictures. Because of this, they use slow panels and ghosting is a big issue.

Sorry for bothering you, but I cant seem to find any information on the subject. Are there any digital signage monitors with fast panels? What panels should I look for in digital signage monitors that would be suitable for gaming. This digital signage monitor I found says its a tv designed for hotels/ doctor offices, would it accept motion better? http://www.amazon.com/NEC-E464-46-In...ywords=nec+e46

Thanks, any input will be greatly appreciated.
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Old 01-05-2015, 08:15 AM
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UFO, are there any digital signage displays with panels that can handle game motion? I'm leaning towards buying one but I don't want ghosting. I found this one which seems more of a tv then digital signage display. http://www.amazon.com/NEC-E464-46-In...ywords=nec+e46 anyone have this tv?

Thanks, any input will be greatly appreciated.
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Old 01-27-2015, 08:23 PM
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Any word on CES bringing any monitor-like input lag results for any 2015 lineup set? Figured with the ease and mobility of the Bodnar people would of been snagging results all week on the new sets.
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Old 02-01-2015, 05:25 PM
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Hi,

I was thinking of getting the 32" version of the 700B, are these response times playable on Counterstrike games on the PC? I plan to hook this tv up to my PC.

Thanks
K.

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Originally Posted by Guregu View Post
I just tested the 55" 700B with my Leo Bodnar input lag tester (1080P signal) today. This set is the KDL-55W800B sans 3D. The Sony rep in my local Best Buy confirmed that Sony is testing the TV in BB stores to see how sales compare to those with 3D It had very similar results to the 800B model.

Here are the results:

Top bar: 20.1 ms
Middle bar: 23.3 ms
Bottom bar: 26.2

Average: 23.2 ms

I did not end up purchasing it as the results are still slightly high for my tastes. I wish more of the 2014 sets had 16-17 ms of input lag like last years 802A and 900A. The only Sony model that comes close this year is the W950B (17 ms) but it has had poor reviews due to bad black levels and inaccurate colors.
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Old 02-02-2015, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by k3nnis View Post
Hi,

I was thinking of getting the 32" version of the 700B, are these response times playable on Counterstrike games on the PC? I plan to hook this tv up to my PC.

Thanks
K.
32" and 42" have 14ms (Bodnar, 6ms vs CRT); 50" probably* as well but nobody has actually tested it
(* based on W800/790 42" vs 50" although 42" Bodnar measurement failed, the vs CRT was 8ms for both but ideally you would probably want a Bodnar measurement for consistency)

Last edited by mithras1; 02-02-2015 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 02-02-2015, 12:21 PM
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Hi,

Thanks for the info. I am new to all this, which ms should I be comparing to a computer lcd screen? the 14ms or the 6ms Bodnar? My current dell lcd screen has 8ms.

Thanks,
K.

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Originally Posted by mithras1 View Post
32" and 42" have 14ms (Bodnar, 6ms vs CRT); 50" probably* as well but nobody has actually tested it
(* based on W800/790 42" vs 50" although 42" Bodnar measurement failed, the vs CRT was 8ms for both but ideally you would probably want a Bodnar measurement for consistency)
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Old 02-02-2015, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by k3nnis View Post
Hi,

Thanks for the info. I am new to all this, which ms should I be comparing to a computer lcd screen? the 14ms or the 6ms Bodnar? My current dell lcd screen has 8ms.

Thanks,
K.
14ms is the Bodnar measurement which is also what is used at displaylag.com the last two years. Normally they list response time measurements for monitors which are not the same as input lag but if you got the 8ms from a review probably compare to the 6ms. But monitors score better on the Bodnar measurement in general (see displaylag)
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Old 02-02-2015, 02:13 PM
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Thanks. If that is the case the Sony w700 is actually very good as a monitor for my PC

Just wondering if the text etc will be as sharp as the dell....

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Originally Posted by mithras1 View Post
14ms is the Bodnar measurement which is also what is used at displaylag.com the last two years. Normally they list response time measurements for monitors which are not the same as input lag but if you got the 8ms from a review probably compare to the 6ms. But monitors score better on the Bodnar measurement in general (see displaylag)
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Old 03-04-2015, 10:00 AM
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Old 03-18-2015, 06:29 AM
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So I'm curious. What's the input lag like on the 2015 4K offerings? Last I heard lower resolution (720/1080) sources would have more input lag than 4K sources because of processing. Is there a workaround yet? I don't see much point in a 4K screen if it's no good for gaming. From what I'm seeing there are still only a couple 32-40 inch model on the market. This annoys me.
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:12 AM
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4K has the Vizio P series, cheap, impressively back-lit, reasonably thin. I'd start there......very good response times reported, but I can't quote a link so.....hopefully I'm in the ballpark of 'correct' on this one.

LG's for example, I don't believe are getting better, but worse.

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Old 03-19-2015, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper187 View Post
So I'm curious. What's the input lag like on the 2015 4K offerings? Last I heard lower resolution (720/1080) sources would have more input lag than 4K sources because of processing. Is there a workaround yet? I don't see much point in a 4K screen if it's no good for gaming. From what I'm seeing there are still only a couple 32-40 inch model on the market. This annoys me.
The Samsung 4k UDH J-series models have an input lag of 22ms in game mode, which is up there among the best.
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Old 03-20-2015, 11:23 AM
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I like this thread but most people don't realize one huge facet of input lag.

A lot of people would say 40ms to 20ms input lag between monitors is really nothing. Say you take two online FPS players. They are both top of their game and react on average around 160ms. The guy that has the 20ms screen will always have a 20ms advantage over the 40ms screen guy, so on average his hits will be registered first. There is no way around that. So yes, being able to "perceive" these input lag differences can not be so clear cut, but they still definitely have an affect in high end gaming.
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Old 03-20-2015, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post
I like this thread but most people don't realize one huge facet of input lag.

A lot of people would say 40ms to 20ms input lag between monitors is really nothing. Say you take two online FPS players. They are both top of their game and react on average around 160ms. The guy that has the 20ms screen will always have a 20ms advantage over the 40ms screen guy, so on average his hits will be registered first. There is no way around that. So yes, being able to "perceive" these input lag differences can not be so clear cut, but they still definitely have an affect in high end gaming.
True. I have no intention of getting a 4K screen until I can get one in the 36-40 inch size range that handles 720-180P input with under 20ms input lag. processing power they put in these HTDVs between smart features, filtering options etc and they still don't have the power to cut input lag properly for gaming. I call ********.
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Old 03-20-2015, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post
I like this thread but most people don't realize one huge facet of input lag.

A lot of people would say 40ms to 20ms input lag between monitors is really nothing. Say you take two online FPS players. They are both top of their game and react on average around 160ms. The guy that has the 20ms screen will always have a 20ms advantage over the 40ms screen guy, so on average his hits will be registered first. There is no way around that. So yes, being able to "perceive" these input lag differences can not be so clear cut, but they still definitely have an affect in high end gaming.
Someone always brings up "High Level Gaming" when talking about rank-and-file TV sets....none of these will be purpose built monitors, and unless your name is Thresh or whoever the hell is the reigning twitch-wrist king in FPS gaming, is your 20ms lag-variation really ruining your imaginary career in professional gaming? No, probably not. Let's assume if you are THAT serious about FPS reaction times, you've laughed off consoles and moved to a PC, keyboard and mouse and are likely playing on one of the new monitors that can sync up at 120hz so you never have to worry about your input devices being your problem....nor can you use them as your excuse, either "if only my mouse was faster...I'd have got that guy". Uh-Huh.

Also, let's go into this with our eyes open, your rate of transmission to and from the server is not static. You can test out at 30ms ping to a server..and then 5 seconds later get a 45....then get a 60...then get a 15....all in the span of the time it takes to draw and release a breath, and I doubt people are hauling these panels to Lan Parties.

Having said all that (and honestly not trying to be a threadcrapper here) is the Vizio P series still the one to beat in terms of gaming performance on a 4K panel in the budget section? There are Toshibas and LG's in the same neighborhood, but I don't think the 2015 models are shipping for any companies yet.
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Old 03-22-2015, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post
Someone always brings up "High Level Gaming" when talking about rank-and-file TV sets....none of these will be purpose built monitors, and unless your name is Thresh or whoever the hell is the reigning twitch-wrist king in FPS gaming, is your 20ms lag-variation really ruining your imaginary career in professional gaming? No, probably not. Let's assume if you are THAT serious about FPS reaction times, you've laughed off consoles and moved to a PC, keyboard and mouse and are likely playing on one of the new monitors that can sync up at 120hz so you never have to worry about your input devices being your problem....nor can you use them as your excuse, either "if only my mouse was faster...I'd have got that guy". Uh-Huh.

Also, let's go into this with our eyes open, your rate of transmission to and from the server is not static. You can test out at 30ms ping to a server..and then 5 seconds later get a 45....then get a 60...then get a 15....all in the span of the time it takes to draw and release a breath, and I doubt people are hauling these panels to Lan Parties.

Having said all that (and honestly not trying to be a threadcrapper here) is the Vizio P series still the one to beat in terms of gaming performance on a 4K panel in the budget section? There are Toshibas and LG's in the same neighborhood, but I don't think the 2015 models are shipping for any companies yet.
It's not just about top end gamers either. Even if you took two average gamers, the extra 20ms on average will favor the player with the lower input lag. No sense in talking about connection/server speeds, those have nothing to do with input lag and are variables outside the scope of the topic.

Input lag should always be kept is low as possible for many reasons. Having to delay audio/syncing is annoying, adjusting timing based recreational use like instruments in Rock band etc is annoying, etc..
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post
Someone always brings up "High Level Gaming" when talking about rank-and-file TV sets....none of these will be purpose built monitors, and unless your name is Thresh or whoever the hell is the reigning twitch-wrist king in FPS gaming, is your 20ms lag-variation really ruining your imaginary career in professional gaming? No, probably not. Let's assume if you are THAT serious about FPS reaction times, you've laughed off consoles and moved to a PC, keyboard and mouse and are likely playing on one of the new monitors that can sync up at 120hz so you never have to worry about your input devices being your problem....nor can you use them as your excuse, either "if only my mouse was faster...I'd have got that guy". Uh-Huh.
.

Laughed off consoles?? Seriously?? I would think that many more people play on consoles than PC's because it's ALOT easier for most people to hold a controller in their hands and use all the controls than try and use a mouse and hope you hit the right keys.


To me gaming on a PC is laughable because I cannot do with a mouse and keys what I can do with a Dualshock 4. I have tried gaming on a PC and HATED it. So, to each their own, but for me Consoles rule- especially Playstation as I also cannot stand the XBOX controller.
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by steelerfan47 View Post
To me gaming on a PC is laughable because I cannot do with a mouse and keys what I can do with a Dualshock 4.
http://kotaku.com/the-dualshock-4-ha...lle-1648577637
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Old 04-03-2015, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by steelerfan47 View Post
Laughed off consoles?? Seriously?? I would think that many more people play on consoles than PC's because it's ALOT easier for most people to hold a controller in their hands and use all the controls than try and use a mouse and hope you hit the right keys.


To me gaming on a PC is laughable because I cannot do with a mouse and keys what I can do with a Dualshock 4. I have tried gaming on a PC and HATED it. So, to each their own, but for me Consoles rule- especially Playstation as I also cannot stand the XBOX controller.
Plenty of controllers work on PC. Personally, I don't understand how people can enjoy the PS controllers for FPS. I was using one last week and my thumbs kept touching while using both sticks. I like the Xbox controller layout much better. I'll have a PS4 tomorrow, but I've got a little toy coming to let me use an Xbox controller on it.

The problem with PC gaming isn't controls. Consoles are just simpler, or at least they used to be. There's too much bull**** when trying to game on PC. Oh, this game requires this specific DirectX DLL from June 2011 to work. DirectX isn't just DirectX. Everything is coded to specific minor versions of it (not just 8, 9, or 10), and it's stupid. Then you have bloated video drivers that break some games at times. "Oh, get the version x.xx drivers form 6 months ago. The game runs perfect on those." Again, bull****. Then of course there's the requiring a specific versions of Windows. People should've raged harder back when Halo 2 was released as "Vita Only." The hackers fixed Halo 2, but developers learned nothing. Games using OpenGL run on any version of Windows (and linux!). Yet, everyone insists on requiring DirectX.

Yes, we're off topic, but it needed to be said. I just don't understand why nobody can make HDTV sized screens with the response times etc of PC monitors. Even the companies making PC monitors refuse to go bigger than 30". Nobody wants a 32" monitor? I sure as hell did a while back. I've got a 40" Vizio on my desk now.
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:38 AM
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I was wondering if increasing/decreasing the back light on my tv has any affect on inputlag? When switching to game mode on my tv the back light setting is lowered compared to the other settings. How about if I increasing/decreasing the color setting has any affect on inputlag as well?
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Old 04-30-2015, 12:28 AM
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I just purchased a 49" Sony XBR-850B for gaming. I checked the first post but do not see an input lag for it. Can anyone verify it? I checked google too and there are numbers all over the place. When I connect the TV directly to my PS4 it automatically chooses Game Standard and I can switch to Game Original. Does this matter?

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Old 05-17-2015, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
Here is a link to get you started: http://www.testufo.com/#test=frameskipping In order to properly perform this test, you will need a high speed camera.

Hey, UFO. Just wondering if you happened to know the input lag numbers for the 50"(C1) or 48"(C2) Vizio 2015 series?
TVRtings scored the 60"(C3) panel with 29ms, but as we all know if last year was anything to go by, the C1 and C2 panels could very well possibly be higher...
The site mentioned that they should have these numbers for the smaller sizes at the end of the month. here's hoping!
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Old 05-23-2015, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post
Someone always brings up "High Level Gaming" when talking about rank-and-file TV sets....none of these will be purpose built monitors, and unless your name is Thresh or whoever the hell is the reigning twitch-wrist king in FPS gaming, is your 20ms lag-variation really ruining your imaginary career in professional gaming? No, probably not. Let's assume if you are THAT serious about FPS reaction times, you've laughed off consoles and moved to a PC, keyboard and mouse and are likely playing on one of the new monitors that can sync up at 120hz so you never have to worry about your input devices being your problem....nor can you use them as your excuse, either "if only my mouse was faster...I'd have got that guy". Uh-Huh.

Also, let's go into this with our eyes open, your rate of transmission to and from the server is not static. You can test out at 30ms ping to a server..and then 5 seconds later get a 45....then get a 60...then get a 15....all in the span of the time it takes to draw and release a breath, and I doubt people are hauling these panels to Lan Parties.
Well, 20ms of lag won't make a good player bad, or a bad player good, but it will have an impact.

My total reaction time (tested on my pc) is about 195ms. Of that 30ms is my display lag, 2ms is taken up by my current mouse polling rate, and probably another 10ms ore more taken up by various imponderables inside the pc case. Which is to say that "MY" reaction time is about 150ms, but with assorted hardware it's pushing 200ms.

And yes, shaving milliseconds out of that 45ms which is hardware related, will *definitely* help in games that require fast reaction times.

To be fair, most gamers, most of the time, will not easily tell a difference between a 16.7ms and a 33.4ms monitor input lag (1 vs 2 frames @60fps ). Interestingly going from 30fps to 60fps is pretty noticeable on a visual level, as it goes a long way towards giving a fluid sense of movement and improving anticipation & timing, but in terms of input lag itself, one more frame won't be all that noticeable.

Pings are usually a little more stable than you suggest, but it depends on the server, game, etc. And yes server ping is a pretty big issue in gaming. Huge issue. In some games if you don't have a fast connection, you cannot win.

Worth mentioning, in some games having a higher server ping can make you 'better' at the game. Well, perhaps not better, but harder to kill. This is why sometimes people with a high ping will be kicked from FPS game servers, because their position in game is always different than what other people see, making them surprisingly hard to hit. It really depends on the game in question, and how it's netcode is handled.

If I could choose between a monitor with 20ms input lag and one with 40ms input lag, I would absolutely pick the one which is NOT going to add another 10% to my gaming reaction time. Sure 180ms reaction vs 200ms reaction doesn't sound like much, but that's actually exactly the kind of difference that separates winning from losing in many games. I mean, if my display is 20ms slower to show me things, i could just *hope* that my opponents will be 20ms slower in reaction time than I am... i guess... it's not an ideal situation though.

It probably matters less on consoles, with lower frame rates and somewhat slower aiming. But even then, if you have a tv with 100ms input lag, it will be visibly noticeable, and quite annoying to play with. And in a fighting game or side-scroller where aiming speed isn't slowing things down, even minor lag would be annoying on a console, regardless of frame rate. Can you imagine quickly entering a complex combo in a 2D fighting game when your character on screen is lagging one movement behind all the way through it? It'd be maddening.

So 20ms... about 10% of an average reaction time. Just moving away from computers for a moment, could you compete in field & track if you were 10% slower than usual?

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Originally Posted by steelerfan47 View Post
Laughed off consoles?? Seriously?? I would think that many more people play on consoles than PC's because ... //

To me gaming on a PC is laughable because I cannot do with a mouse and keys what I can do with a Dualshock 4. I have tried gaming on a PC and HATED it.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to get into any pc vs. console angst silliness. (PS the main reason more people play consoles is that they *usually* have a lower entry price, are easier to ask for a birthday, etc. without handing out a detailed list of specs, don't require assembly, etc). I like ps3 for some of the game exclusives. And I have both playstation and xbox controllers plugged into my PC. But for a FPS type game, no controller can come even remotely close to a mouse for speed and accuracy of aiming. I'll agree that I like moving with a controller stick or D-pad more, but for aiming? Mouse is unbeatable. There are lots of games that are more fun on a controller, I prefer a controller for driving games, some 3D semi-shooters like dungeon defenders, fighting games, side scrollers, etc. But for mmo's controllers always seem to have too few buttons, and for FPS games the aiming is dreadfully slow and inaccurate.

There's a learning curve to using any unfamiliar control scheme. Also, when you play on a pc you don't get aim-assist. Many console games assist zeroing in on a target to help with the not so accurate controller input, while the pc version leaves it entirely up to the player, because he or she has a much more accurate input device for aiming. It's meant to create a bit of parity in difficulty, although if you've ever seen xbox/pc gamers go head to head in an FPS game on the same server... I'll just say most currently used console game aim assists are not helpful enough to create parity.
But at the end of the day, if you're on an even playing field with the people you're competing with, and you're having fun, then there's no downside :-)

(you do tempt me to go pick up a dual shock 4 controller for my pc though, you're not the first person i've heard really like them)

Anyway, no console would make use of a 4k screen though. I mean it could be upscaled, but there's little benefit really. And most 1080p screens are plenty fast these days. It's the 4k screens that seem to be having the most input lag issues. So I tend to think of it more as a pc problem, for those who want to pc game at 4k.

___


I'm kinda interested in the 2015 JS-series from samsung. Specifically the UN48JS7500 (48" 4k 120hz/3D IPS). It seems to have a 22ms input lag when in game mode. Really I'd prefer a monitor with an input lag of under 16.7ms (within one frame @60fps ). Currently my input lag is 26ms, so I know that 22ms is very workable. It would just be nice to get the input lag within the single-frame zone. I like the curved screen, perfect for a little bit of a visual 'surround' in desktop use.

I really do want a 44-54 inch (48 is ideal) 4k screen, so that the pixel density is roughly equal to a 22-27 inch 1080p monitor, so that text and everything scales perfectly. So far, the monitor makers seem to absolutely refuse to make a monitor that is large enough to fully exploit the pixel density of 4k. There are only a few monitors which really adequately exploit the pixel density of 1440p (which ideally should be around 32"). So i'm looking at tv's... if the input lag, resolution, and screen size is right, then it would be an instant hit for pc gaming.

Anybody know of a 40"-55"ish screen that is curved, has good blacks, and is under 17ms input lag?
Yeah, me either.
I guess on the plus side, while we wait, the graphics cards that could power 4k and keep frame rates high are slowly getting cheaper, and/or designed & released
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Originally Posted by Viper187 View Post
Plenty of controllers work on PC. Personally, I don't understand how people can enjoy the PS controllers for FPS. I was using one last week and my thumbs kept touching while using both sticks. I like the Xbox controller layout much better. I'll have a PS4 tomorrow, but I've got a little toy coming to let me use an Xbox controller on it.

The problem with PC gaming isn't controls. Consoles are just simpler, or at least they used to be. There's too much bull**** when trying to game on PC. Oh, this game requires this specific DirectX DLL from June 2011 to work. DirectX isn't just DirectX. Everything is coded to specific minor versions of it (not just 8, 9, or 10), and it's stupid. Then you have bloated video drivers that break some games at times. "Oh, get the version x.xx drivers form 6 months ago. The game runs perfect on those." Again, bull****. Then of course there's the requiring a specific versions of Windows. People should've raged harder back when Halo 2 was released as "Vita Only." The hackers fixed Halo 2, but developers learned nothing. Games using OpenGL run on any version of Windows (and linux!). Yet, everyone insists on requiring DirectX.

Yes, we're off topic, but it needed to be said. I just don't understand why nobody can make HDTV sized screens with the response times etc of PC monitors. Even the companies making PC monitors refuse to go bigger than 30". Nobody wants a 32" monitor? I sure as hell did a while back. I've got a 40" Vizio on my desk now.
I agree. Holding an analog stick in one direction to try to aim fast is pathetic, it's been proven how god-awful it is with that test of the top tier COD players vs base-line PC players. (Then again most Console FPS's have that lovely built in aiming feature, so if you are even slightly close, it'll still lock on and hit, or be damn closer than you actually were, so they feel like they are accurate)

Mouse\Keyboard = way to go, no questions. But really, I have yet to find a TV that matches monitor smoothness. As I've stated I have a P-series 65 inch (prior a 50 inch) and that 4k tv has one of the lowest input times, I can still SEE the difference of "lag" compared to my 4-5 year old...heck, maybe now 6 year old Hans-G 28" which clocks in at a res of 1920x1200 and is at 5ms. (I actually bought a Samsung, Viewsonic, and LG monitor, and I liked my Hans-G the best, kinda blew my mind)

Anyway, response time for tv's are still not "there" in terms of proper gaming monitors, 3ms-5ms is acceptable in monitors, tv's just aren't "THAT" fast, let's be serious. Yeah the P-Series leads the pack TV wise with a super low 18ms, in GAMING mode, which literally cuts off every friggin processing feature the TV has, but that ain't no 1ms or 4-5 ms, lets be real people, you aren't going to beat an actual PC Monitor with a TV in terms of how fast is will be (zero ghosting\etc)

Last edited by rpaulg87; Today at 03:11 PM.
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Lcd Hdtv , Displays , Plasma Hdtv , Sony Bravia Kdl 55ex500 Series 55 Inch Lcd Tv Black
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