Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGSR View Post

Camera was just 10M, ISO800, and auto flash
LED, just standard setting on HDMI/DVI 1 labeled PC with and without LED Motion Plus on.

ah ok very good, what about shutter speeds?


looks like samsung may have fixed the special PC mode, when your testing other modes make sure to take it out of PC mode because PC mode overrides most settings on samsungs

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #452 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by frito View Post

ah ok very good, what about shutter speeds?


looks like samsung may have fixed the special PC mode, when your testing other modes make sure to take it out of PC mode because PC mode overrides most settings on samsungs


Didn't adjust shutter speed, had that on auto. Pics were taken with... Samsung TL225

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post #453 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by frito View Post

wondras video card port delay is normal your card is pretty fast at only 4 ms but some have shown as much as 16 ms delay in clone mode, in the main post i cover this in the testing instructions.

Yeah, it's definitely not unusual. The fact that it only occurred with mixed VGA/DVI interfaces was the surprise.

Quote:
in regards to SMTT your reading it incorrectly

how it works and why its so accurate vs other timers is that every single timer is in sync within the program (they show the same reading at the same time) but V-Sync is disabled and actual frame rates are very high so as your display refreshes from top to bottom the timers continue to advance. the result is timers will increase as you go from the top of the screen to the bottom of the screen and you can always see where the oldest number and newest numbers meet is where oldest updated number and newest updated numbers are all the ones before the latest number are meaningless

It's not that I'm reading it incorrectly, it's that I'm looking for something different.

Since a given pixel on a 60Hz display is drawn every 17ms, the timer value should increase by that amount between frames. When you look at just one monitor in any SMTT picture, if a row has a ghost image from the previous frame, the time difference is always 17ms.

What I'm saying is that if the two monitor outputs are exactly synchronized, i.e., each pixel is created at exactly the same time for both screens, the number being displayed on a specific row will be the same for both outputs. The delayed values will be a multiple of 17 behind, just as for the previous frame on the single screen. If the difference is not a multiple of 17, then the outputs are not being created in sync, so you know you have a delay between ports. In my case the differences were about 20, indicating a 3-4ms delay.

This is different from measuring the actual input lag, where as you say, you look for the highest number on each screen, regardless of which row it's on. Since they are usually on different rows, the difference won't be a multiple of 17.
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post #454 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGSR View Post

55C7000 via HDMI
Samsung Syncmaster 914v via vga

Do we know what the input lag is for the 914v? This could be skewing the results.

And then of course there's the possibility of port delay!
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post #455 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 12:49 PM
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Turned Game Mode On for abit with CoDmw2, amazing. Strong improvement over B series. I never once found myself yelling and cussing about how I knifed first or I shot first or was around a corner. Impressive.

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post #456 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGSR View Post

Turned Game Mode On for abit with CoDmw2, amazing. Strong improvement over B series. I never once found myself yelling and cussing about how I knifed first or I shot first or was around a corner. Impressive.

Well now, that *is* encouraging! How's the motion blur in game mode?
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post #457 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 01:14 PM
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Don't really notice any.

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post #458 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

in regards to SMTT your reading it incorrectly

...

no two displays will be in sync with the update scan so you must take the highest numerical numbers you can make out and compare those two to get the correct lag reading, this is why it has so many timers down the sides of the screen to get the most accurate figure removing the 16ms +/- error due whole single frame refreshes out of the equation completely as long as your framerate in SMTT is over 1000 fps

Gah, I've been doing some testing on my Vizio SV472XVT and apparently I've also been using SMTT wrong. I was taking the differences between each set of numbers and averaging them to try and smooth out the refresh rate problems. So if the top lines on each screen had a difference of 70ms, the middle lines had a difference of 65ms, and the bottom lines had a difference of 50ms, then I was averaging that out to 61.67. But if I understand what you're saying correctly, I should just take the highest number from each screen regardless of where that number shows up on the screen, and compare those?

If so that's good news, it should mean my TV's input lag should be better than what I originally though. I'll have to re-run the numbers.

My framerate was only about 600 though. How much is that going to throw things off?
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post #459 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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you want to have a framerate over 1000 to get the most accurate results possible, 600 will still yield more accurate results than using a flash based timer that runs locked at 60 fps due to v-sync so your results are still better than doing it that way

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #460 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 03:29 PM
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anyone test the samsung t220hd? ive read its really high, but can the avg xbo xgamer even notie it? and a sammy rep said if using VGA there should be any lag....
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post #461 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 06:21 PM
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Ok, after recalculating the SMTT data correctly it didn't affect the average by more than 1 millisecond, so here are my results for testing the Vizio SV472XVT for input lag:

1. VGA 1080p - min 54ms (3 frames), average 69ms (4 frames).
2. HDMI 1080p all advanced image processing options OFF - min 61ms (3.5-ish frames), average 67ms (4 frames).
3. HDMI 1080p all advanced image processing options ON and maxed out - min 59ms (3.5 frames), average 65ms (4 frames).
4. Composite 480i - I didn't test this with SMTT but using the Wii in this mode was almost unplayable. Horrible input lag. Avoid at all costs (use the component cable instead).
5. Component 480p - As soon as I switched the Wii to use a component cable and ran in 480p it felt just like the XBox 360 in 1080p (i.e. about 3-4 frames of input lag).

Conclusion: The Vizio SV472XVT has 3-4 frames of input lag when using a HD or component input, and interestingly the advanced image processing features (smooth motion, noise reduction, etc, etc) don't seem to affect this *at all*, so you can just adjust for the best picture quality and not worry about sacrificing image quality to get lower input lag.

I put up a flickr album with some of the SMTT samples I took here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/4827176...7623463745583/

My original thread on this has more details if you're interested (including more test setup info): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233747
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post #462 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks, glad to finally get some input lag numbers on the better Vizio TV's people often love.

I have to say though that the figures are about what i expected, even though the TV is using an LG IPS panel that has the potential for low input lag Vizio's inferior processing hardware and/or software is too slow and adds input lag.

I expected this because they aim for the budget market even with the XVT models and even though they are big the in the US today overall as a company designing electronics they are much smaller than the competitors and have less money and experience doing it than the competitors and it shows sometimes.

it is interesting that their motion enhancer does not impact input lag, this would indicate that this TV is always stuck in a 120hz frame duplicating mode and is not able to pull out of that mode like many 120/240hz TV's can do when in game mode to reduce input lag to the minimum that is always panel lag limited (RTC buffer + pixel lag)

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #463 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

thanks, glad to finally get some input lag numbers on the better Vizio TV's people often love.

I have to say though that the figures are about what i expected, even though the TV is using an LG IPS panel that has the potential for low input lag Vizio's inferior processing hardware and/or software is too slow and adds input lag.

I expected this because they aim for the budget market even with the SVT models and even though they are big the in the US today overall as a company designing electronics they are much smaller than the competitors and have less money and experience doing it than the competitors and it shows sometimes.

it is interesting that their motion enhancer does not impact input lag, this would indicate that this TV is always stuck in a 120hz frame duplicating mode and is not able to pull out of that mode like many 120/240hz TV's can do when in game mode to reduce input lag to the minimum that is always panel lag limited (RTC buffer + pixel lag)

Yeah I found the fact that none of the image enhancing features affected input lag to be very odd. I'm hoping that this means they could make a firmware update in the future that gives us an option to go down to 60hz or fix whatever else it is that's causing all the lag because the image processing features themselves certainly don't seem to be the bottleneck here. I'm not going to hold my breath but a guy can dream...

Is there a 46-47" TV on the market right now that has comparable features but with better input lag? Specifically I'd want an LED LCD with full compartmentalized backlight (not edge-lit), good image quality, and I like the wireless internet capability. I just got this Vizio so I could return it if there's something out there that would be better, but overall I still really like the SV472XVT as a whole package so I'd need to find something similar. I'd be willing to go up in price as well if it meant a better overall TV.

For what it's worth I don't find the lag to be bad enough that I consciously notice it, even when I'm looking for it (and I've tried FPS and fast action games specifically to try and push it). It might be affecting my gaming anyway even though I don't realize it, but since I don't notice it at least it's not frustrating. Maybe I'm just getting old or something.
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post #464 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 08:10 PM
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HDTV Polska posted input lag test results for the Sony HX701.

47 ms.

Is this good, bad, average? How does it compare to similar LCD ?
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post #465 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToiletSiphon View Post

HDTV Polska posted input lag test results for the Sony HX701.

47 ms.

Is this good, bad, average? How does it compare to similar LCD ?

that is ok input lag for an HDTV, most console gamers would find it acceptable

its also in line with previous year sony TV's

you got a link to his test so i can add it to the list?

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #466 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjapowered View Post

Yeah I found the fact that none of the image enhancing features affected input lag to be very odd. I'm hoping that this means they could make a firmware update in the future that gives us an option to go down to 60hz or fix whatever else it is that's causing all the lag because the image processing features themselves certainly don't seem to be the bottleneck here. I'm not going to hold my breath but a guy can dream...

Is there a 46-47" TV on the market right now that has comparable features but with better input lag? Specifically I'd want an LED LCD with full compartmentalized backlight (not edge-lit), good image quality, and I like the wireless internet capability. I just got this Vizio so I could return it if there's something out there that would be better, but overall I still really like the SV472XVT as a whole package so I'd need to find something similar. I'd be willing to go up in price as well if it meant a better overall TV.

For what it's worth I don't find the lag to be bad enough that I consciously notice it, even when I'm looking for it (and I've tried FPS and fast action games specifically to try and push it). It might be affecting my gaming anyway even though I don't realize it, but since I don't notice it at least it's not frustrating. Maybe I'm just getting old or something.

LG 47LH90 would be the only one with local dimming LED that will beat it

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #467 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by frito View Post

LG 47LH90 would be the only one with local dimming LED that will beat it

Hey frito can you check your pm?
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post #468 of 4288 Old 03-11-2010, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daman22 View Post

anyone test the samsung t220hd? ive read its really high, but can the avg xbo xgamer even notie it? and a sammy rep said if using VGA there should be any lag....

its got bad input lag for a display designed for PC monitor use

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/revie...hd-part11.html

31ms input lag

compared to HDTV's it is however a good performer at the upper end of good but still acceptable to most gamers

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #469 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 12:52 AM
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This sounded interesting, so I thought I would try my HDTV.

This is a Vizio32L10A. PC on the right, HDTV on the left.... And I'm somewhat confused here. I'll explain after the pictures. I tested all 3 HDMI inputs on the TV, and since it has no "Game Mode" I made sure that each was set to a custom mode I use when gaming that has all image enhancements turned off.

Input: HDMI1


Input: HDMI2


Input: HDMI3


So here's what I don't get.....input 1 shows 46ms lag, but 2 and 3 show 32ms and 31ms. I thought this was weird, so I did the test again....and the numbers were within 1ms of the first test. So why is this? Obviously if this is correct, then I'd be doing much better to put my PS3 on HDMI 3 (since I've always used #2 for the PC). Just seems weird is all, but I guess the numbers don't lie.
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post #470 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 02:22 AM
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bahnzo,
The difference in latency could be due to the circuitry. I believe the Sharp LE700UN is the same way. Two or three of the HDMI inputs on that model produce lower numbers than the rest.

For front page info, was the test done against a CRT or LCD?
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post #471 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus18 View Post

bahnzo,
The difference in latency could be due to the circuitry. I believe the Sharp LE700UN is the same way. Two or three of the HDMI inputs on that model produce lower numbers than the rest.

For front page info, was the test done against a CRT or LCD?

Test was done against a CRT monitor, with the Vizio set to it's native 720p resolution.

A quick question as well. I'm getting an hdmi to vga cable to connect my PS3 to my computer's CRT (to help with lag)....the Vizio also has a VGA input, would this be noticeably faster than the HDMI's? I'm not sure I've got a way to test it w/o buying a DVI-VGA cable.
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post #472 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 03:17 AM
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I'm not certain it would work since HDMI/DVI and VGA send two different signals (digital and analog). Maybe someone that has more info on the matter could chime in.
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post #473 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus18 View Post

I'm not certain it would work since HDMI/DVI and VGA send two different signals (digital and analog). Maybe someone that has more info on the matter could chime in.

The only way to go from HDMI to VGA is with something like the HDFury:

http://www.curtpalme.com/HDFury.shtm

Some folks on the shoryuken.com forums have reported good results with HDFury. People should be aware that it's only useful with the PS3; the XBox 360 has a proper VGA cable available already.

Part of the reason you need a niche product like this is that movie studios don't want you to be able to take their copy-protected digital signal and create an un-protected version at full 1080p (even if it's analog.)

I'd suggest looking for some solid test results that show reduced lag on the VGA input of your specific TV before investing in an HDFury. On many models (including my LH20), it doesn't speed things up, and only serves to reduce the image quality. Of course, if you want to be the one to test it, go for it!
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post #474 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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bahnzo, how many pictures did you take on each input and what was your camera shutter speed at? 1/60? looks like it was higher and that is ok as long as you got the numbers in view

anyways what i'm getting at is in my experience with testing TV's using any timer but most notably those flash based timers is that if you take 10+ photos when using those timers you can end up with a numbers varying by 16ms and maybe even more (i've seen as much as 30ms variance)

if your running winXP 32bit i have a copy of SMTT for it now that i can give you that will yield more accurate results if you want to give it a go

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #475 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjapowered View Post

Conclusion: The Vizio SV472XVT has 3-4 frames of input lag when using a HD or component input, and interestingly the advanced image processing features (smooth motion, noise reduction, etc, etc) don't seem to affect this *at all*, so you can just adjust for the best picture quality and not worry about sacrificing image quality to get lower input lag.

Interesting results! I replied in your thread about the tests. Short version: it would be good to be able to see all of the rows, and using the TV output may skew the results.

By the way, if you want to do an SMTT test on upscaled standard-def 480i, you can run the single TV output into something that will split it into two, and connect it to both the Vizio and the CRT TV. Possible ways to do this are:

- run through an S-VHS VCR with composite and s-video outputs
- run through an A/V Receiver with multiple outputs (this is what I used)
- hack a Y-adapter out of two cheap s-video cables (this will degrade the signal, but it's fine for testing)

One nice thing with this test is that there is guaranteed zero port delay, since both are on the same port.
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post #476 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

its got bad input lag for a display designed for PC monitor use

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/revie...hd-part11.html

31ms input lag

compared to HDTV's it is however a good performer at the upper end of good but still acceptable to most gamers

wont be used as monitor, i will use as tv and 360 gaming.... so its pretty good for xbox 360 gaming?
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post #477 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by daman22 View Post

wont be used as monitor, i will use as tv and 360 gaming.... so its pretty good for xbox 360 gaming?

If a single number from the flatpanels.dk timer is to be believed, then yes, at 31ms it'll be very good for xbox gaming. It'll definitely be better than most TVs.

If you're one of the "lucky" people that are super-sensitive to lag, you might be able to see it, but even then you're still in pretty good shape.
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post #478 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

LG 47LH90 would be the only one with local dimming LED that will beat it

Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately from what I can tell from a short search it doesn't have any network capability, it's missing a component input according to the spec sheet I found on LG's website (meaning playing on the Wii could be sketchy), the input lag is still about 2 frames, and I see some concerns about blooming and other picture quality issues.

So I think the SV472XVT is still the right TV for me. I appreciate the suggestion though!
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post #479 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

Interesting results! I replied in your thread about the tests. Short version: it would be good to be able to see all of the rows, and using the TV output may skew the results.

By the way, if you want to do an SMTT test on upscaled standard-def 480i, you can run the single TV output into something that will split it into two, and connect it to both the Vizio and the CRT TV. Possible ways to do this are:

- run through an S-VHS VCR with composite and s-video outputs
- run through an A/V Receiver with multiple outputs (this is what I used)
- hack a Y-adapter out of two cheap s-video cables (this will degrade the signal, but it's fine for testing)

One nice thing with this test is that there is guaranteed zero port delay, since both are on the same port.

Yeah I realized I misunderstood how SMTT worked after taking the pictures, and I was too sick of lugging gear around and testing to do any more! I don't think it would affect results by more than 5ms though, so the final result should still hold (3-4 frames of lag).

Great idea on setting things up so I'm only running off the one port, but won't running the vizio at anything besides its native 1080p introduce the possibility of lag due to the vizio having to upscale? Or am I misunderstanding what you're suggesting?
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post #480 of 4288 Old 03-12-2010, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ninjapowered View Post

Yeah I realized I misunderstood how SMTT worked after taking the pictures, and I was too sick of lugging gear around and testing to do any more! I don't think it would affect results by more than 5ms though, so the final result should still hold (3-4 frames of lag).

Yeah, you shouldn't get too obsessive about it (unlike some of us.) Chances are very good that you've already got the right answer.

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Great idea on setting things up so I'm only running off the one port, but won't running the vizio at anything besides its native 1080p introduce the possibility of lag due to the vizio having to upscale? Or am I misunderstanding what you're suggesting?

This was just to test upscaled 480i, in case you want to get an actual number for it. Lag is generally 1-2 frames higher for 480i than for native 1080p.

If you do test 480i, and it comes out 1 frame higher than your 1080p tests, then I would say it's further evidence that the 1080p results are correct. More than one extra frame is entirely possible, though it won't tell you much about the 1080p tests in that case. If it's less than the 1080p lag, then something is almost definitely not right with the 1080p tests.
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