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LCD Flat Panel Displays > Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference
swexican's Avatar swexican 09:28 AM 03-15-2010
Hi,

First of all thanks for the effort and time you guys are putting into this! Even if the display I was interested in haven't been tested accurately here so far, this thread helped me a lot to understand the input lag issue better. That's why, now that I got my new TV at home and I have some days to try it out, I want to make sure I do some proper testing before I make a decision, so someone else can benefit from it.

I do think I'm pretty sensible to things like monitor refresh rates and input lag, and reading about all these issues always made me hesitate about getting a HDTV. Also, the couple of times I've played games on friends TV's I've noticed some lag, and personally I hate to be aware of it when everyone else seems to happily game away. They probably think I'm completely nuts when I mention it

Anyway, I finally decided that the superior screen size and resolution was worth some possible lag issues (and that I might be just crazy after all) so I got myself a new TV, a 42" LG SL85 (internal specs identical to SL80, SL8000 and SL8500)

After gaming on it for some some days I have to say I do clearly feel a small lag, but I also get more used to it than I thought I would, so I can still enjoy the games even if it bothers me from time to time. Testing the Game profile made me think its just that, an image profile and not a Game mode but I have no real numbers on it yet. In theory labeling a port as PC makes it even faster, but the strange thing is, it disables different settings depending on the source. For instance, using an Xbox as source (and label as PC) grayed almost everything out in the settings, while it grayed out less settings when connecting my Macbook or my desktop PC. Don't know if this is normal. I also switched the ports to see if that made a difference, but no. I will check all this again because I did it very late at night and I started to feel the input lag in my brain

I also did some tests with the flash timer at flatpanels.dk. At first I used my Macbook (white 13" 2007 model) for my tests but that was completely unreliable and useless as the application struggled to show the numbers evenly and made jumps from time to time. But then I hooked up my desktop PC and run the same tests and started to get consistent numbers on every picture: 32 ms of input lag.

This is the hardware I used for the test:

Graphic interface: ATI Radeon 9700 Pro

Display 1: on VGA-port, LCD Monitor, Acer AL 1751 (low lag in theory)
Display 2: on HDMI-port, LCD HDTV, LG SL85

Resolution tested: 1280 x 1024

I know it's an LCD (although a fast one in theory) and I didn't test 1080 native resolution, but I just wanted to get some fast numbers as I was curious about it. I will try to get hold of a CRT to run the tests properly and hopefully get more accurate readings and pictures to publish here. I would also like to get a copy of the SMTT software(WinXP) if it's possible. And of course, any help with the tests and readings in general would be appreciated!

Cheers
-swexican

wondras's Avatar wondras 09:40 AM 03-15-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by swexican View Post

Also, the couple of times I've played games on friends TV's I've noticed some lag, and personally I hate to be aware of it when everyone else seems to happily game away. They probably think I'm completely nuts when I mention it

It's one of those things that drives you crazy once someone points it out to you. Don't make a big deal out of it, unless you can speed things up for them, in which case you can be the hero.

Quote:


Testing the Game profile made me think its just that, an image profile and not a Game mode but I have no real numbers on it yet. In theory labeling a port as PC makes it even faster, but the strange thing is, it disables different settings depending on the source. For instance, using an Xbox as source (and label as PC) grayed almost everything out in the settings, while it grayed out less settings when connecting my Macbook or my desktop PC. Don't know if this is normal.

This is normal for LGs. They try to "help" you by changing or disabling some options. At least on my lowly 37LH20, none of them affect lag at all. Using the "Cinema" picture mode and any input label other than "PC" allows me to change the most options. "Expert" picture mode has even more, but it gets crazy complicated if you're not doing detailed calibration.

Quote:


But then I hooked up my desktop PC and run the same tests and started to get consistent numbers on every picture: 32 ms of input lag.

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen this timer give consistent numbers. Do try to snag a copy of SMTT from frito, it'll help a lot of confirm your numbers.
wondras's Avatar wondras 09:55 AM 03-15-2010
Finally, here are some real numbers for my LG 37LH20. I think I went overboard on the testing, but hopefully it will be a useful example of how it can be done and what things to consider.

Short Version:

The 37LH20's lag is 1.5 frames (25ms.)


Longer Version:

Total display lag, from incoming video to fully fired pixel, is 30ms. This is the sum of 21ms input lag and 9ms pixel response time. The "practical" total lag is somewhat less, about 25ms (1.5 frames), since pixel changes are visible before they have fully settled.

Upscaling of 480i content adds one additional frame of delay, for a total of 2.5 frames.


Tests Performed:

Interfaces and Resolutions:
HDMI - 1080p, 768p, 720p
VGA - 1360x768, 1280x720, 1024x768, 640x480
Component - 720p, 480i
Composite - 480i

TV Settings:
Input Labels (blank, PC, Game, etc.)
Picture modes (Cinema, Game)
Overscan on/off
Edge Enhancement on/off


Test Setup:

TV:
LG 37LH20-UA
LGD S-IPS panel (printed on sticker visible through center rear vent)
Manufacture Date: October 2009
Firmware Revision: unknown

Source PC:
Core 2 Duo 3 GHz
nVidia GeForce 8600GT with dual DVI outputs and component/composite TV output
Windows 7 64-bit
Latest DirectX, Windows Updates, and nVidia drivers as of 3/1/2010
SMTT application, 64-bit version

Reference Monitors:
Hitachi CM753 19" SVGA CRT
Commodore 1084 12" NTSC CRT

Camera:
Nikon Coolpix 4100
"Sports" Mode
(EXIF data claims 1/90th sec shutter, ISO 200)


Test Results:

Results were remarkably consistent across input types, HD resolutions, and TV settings. Most measurements only varied +-1ms, with just a few outliers that were not far beyond this. As a result, I'll only post a representative sample here. If anyone really wants to see dozens of very similar pics, or a table of values, I can certainly post them somewhere.



In this pic, the highest number on the CRT is 05.640. The highest number on the TV is 05.619. It is just starting to appear on the second row. This shows an input lag of 21ms. The highest number on the TV that is fully visible is 05.610, which indicates that took an additional 9ms for the pixels to fully respond. I don't know for sure if the camera exposure settings affect this reading, so it could be lower.


Standard-def (480i) results were similarly consistent, at 48ms (2.9 frames.)



The CRT is currently at 19.364 on row 2, and the TV is at about 19.322 on row 5 (42ms input lag.) The latest fully visible time is 19.317 (5ms pixel lag.) There are fewer rows at 480i, so the individual lag and pixel times aren't quite as accurate as for the HD tests, but the combined times are consistently around 48ms.


Other Tests:

I consider the SMTT results to be definitive, but I wanted to compare the accuracy to other common tests.

Using the flatpanels.dk timer, I tested three modes with 10 shots each. Individual values varied a lot (9-40ms), but the average was the same for each mode: 23ms, or 1.4 frames. This is fairly close to my "practical" figure of 1.5. Maybe this quick timer test isn't so bad after all.

I also tried a timer I found in this post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16445094 It averaged about 1.5 frames as well. I think this timer might be better than flatpanels.dk, but I haven't worked with it enough to know for sure. It's a little harder to interpret, but the values seem more consistent.


Not Tested:

There are a few picture settings I did not test: Noise Reduction, Dynamic Contrast, Dynamic Color, and "OPC." They didn't seem relevant for game/PC use. I suspect they would not cause additional lag, anyway.

I did not test the HDMI1 input. HDMI2 was used for all tests.

I couldn't get my video card to do 1080p or 768p on the component output in combination with the CRT. It's possible that the TV doesn't support them, anyway.


Additional Notes:

Picture modes can affect available options in the advanced picture menu. For example, Game forces edge enhancement to high. Cinema and Expert appear to have the most available options.

The only input label that has an effect is "PC". It disables most of the picture settings, and disables overscan for 720p sources. It does not affect input lag or general picture quality.

Even downscaling 1080p to 768p does not cause additional lag. It looks surprisingly good, too. I wouldn't want to use it with a PC full-time, but it would probably be better for Blu-Ray than using 720p upscaled to 768p.

PC display looks pretty nice at 1360x768. It may not be an ideal primary monitor, but it is fine for general HTPC use.

The VGA port does not work well. It didn't properly detect a 1360x768 signal. It reported it as 1024x768, and the image was shifted with a blank border on the right side. It wouldn't display 1280x720, but it did show 1024x768 and 640x480. (I did not test 800x600.) Image quality was fairly poor, except at 640x480. Since the VGA port doesn't affect lag, I see no good reason for using it.


Well, folks, that's it. My earlier suspicions were that the LH20 is a little slower than the Panasonic X1/S1 LCDs, but faster than most others. These tests confirm it.

I’ve had Rock Band set for 25ms lag for a while, and it feels just about right, so I'll be leaving it there. This is mostly what I cared about, but 3D games sometimes give me motion sickness if the controls aren't responsive enough, so it's certainly reassuring to know the lag is pretty low.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading!
frito's Avatar frito 11:03 AM 03-15-2010
nice results guys, sorry i have yet to update the original post. i think i got 5 or 6 TV's to add to the list

hopefully we keep getting more test results so things stay up to date

i'll update the main post tonight to reflect the new tests
frito's Avatar frito 11:17 AM 03-15-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

We need to consolidate and clarify this info. It's getting to spread out and confusing.

So certain screen sizes of the A series has a decent lag time over its VGA connection, but image quality suffered.

Now on one particular 1080P C model was are seeing 30 ms when compared to an lcd monitor (I thought this means more like 47ms) in special mode (what the heck is that and was it not using a VGA connection?) and VGA mode (with a VGA adaptor fromt he game system I'm assuming) when LED motion setting turned on (what the heck is this and does it improve motion blurring)? We predict that turning on game mode will actually increase lag. And we have no confirmation of what the B series could or couldn't do.

We need to clean this up.

I agree, when i update the first post tonight i will try to do this thanks for the advice
swexican's Avatar swexican 11:21 AM 03-15-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

Finally, here are some real numbers for my LG 37LH20. I think I went overboard on the testing, but hopefully it will be a useful example of how it can be done and what things to consider.

Thanks for a great report wondras! Just in time for my own report, this will help me a lot since my TV is also LG

Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

The only input label that has an effect is "PC". It disables most of the picture settings, and disables overscan for 720p sources. It does not affect input lag or general picture quality.

On LG SL85 I know for sure picture quality worsens playing Xbox with input label set to "PC", and I really hope it affects input lag in a positive way. Both avforums.com and dday.it states 30ms on standard mode and 20ms and 10ms respectively in game/pc mode, but I fear their testings might have not been that accurate after all... Anyways, only my own tests will tell

-swexican
NOOBZ1LLA's Avatar NOOBZ1LLA 03:23 PM 03-15-2010
Do PC's suffer from the same input lag as consoles?
Consoles with all their scaling.

And in the end everyone saying Plasma is better for gaming?

I guess we have to wait till may for all the dankest TV's to get released...

I've waited 5 years to retire my 720p Panasonic Th-50PH9.

Maybe it's the TV or maybe it's my outdated 8800 GT but BC2 is choppy here and there(not server latency)

I'm waiting for Fermi to be released and bench-marked before deciding on getting a new card.(leaning Diamond 5850)
frito's Avatar frito 08:55 PM 03-15-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOOBZ1LLA View Post

Do PC's suffer from the same input lag as consoles?
Consoles with all their scaling.

And in the end everyone saying Plasma is better for gaming?

I guess we have to wait till may for all the dankest TV's to get released...

I've waited 5 years to retire my 720p Panasonic Th-50PH9.

Maybe it's the TV or maybe it's my outdated 8800 GT but BC2 is choppy here and there(not server latency)

I'm waiting for Fermi to be released and bench-marked before deciding on getting a new card.(leaning Diamond 5850)

sure input lag from a display is just as important with PC's

i use my TV as a monitor for my PC and play games on it all the time, it why i had to find one with very little input lag

Panasonic TV's in general tend to be some of the most consistent with low input lag regardless of picture settings or resolutions be it plasma or LCD.

LG LCD's and Sharp's in game mode would come the closest to them and perform good in the 30ms range most of the time.

Samsung Plasma's lag pretty bad though just like their LCD's for the most part from what i've seen so it really comes down to how much undefeatible image processing a certain display has in it and with many of the Current good PQ LCD's on the market the level of image processing needed and frame buffering that it takes to produce the images you see on screen result in some extremely laggy displays making them terrible for many types of games
NOOBZ1LLA's Avatar NOOBZ1LLA 11:47 PM 03-15-2010
In general which LCD manufacturer has less input lag, Sony or Samsung?
frito's Avatar frito 12:01 AM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOOBZ1LLA View Post

In general which LCD manufacturer has less input lag, Sony or Samsung?

they are both the worst and which one is better will depend highly on the model specifically and what resolution your input is.
AABBCCAA's Avatar AABBCCAA 05:41 AM 03-16-2010
While testing my LG 37LH7020 I noticed that Windows Aero adds some kind of Vsync to the primary display but not to the cloned one. I don't know if this also applies to the SMTT tool but it completely messed up my results with stopwatch, getting 10-30ms with my monitor as primary display and 40-80ms with the LG set to primary. Results stayed constant within a range of 30-50ms after changing the design to Windows classic.

Other things I noticed:

- all HDMI inputs behave the same
- Game Mode does nothing
- neither does PC Mode
- True Motion is the only thing that adds lag
swexican's Avatar swexican 06:44 AM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AABBCCAA View Post

While testing my LG 37LH7020 I noticed that
- all HDMI inputs behave the same
- Game Mode does nothing
- neither does PC Mode
- True Motion is the only thing that adds lag

This is what I fear is true for most LG sets. I got my TV after reading in some reviews you could actually get below 30 ms input lag if you used Game or PC mode, but I'm starting to believe it's not true. How does AVForums.com perform their lag tests? Does anyone know?

I tried to play DJ Hero yesterday, both on Game and PC mode, and even after calibrating the game it was hard to play fluidly. It just didn't feel as right and natural as when playing GH or DJH on a tube TV. Does anyone know how calibration in music games work and how it takes into account delayed input, video and sound? Is it possible to make it work well at all? I got really odd and high numbers both on video and audio delay, maybe I did something wrong...

I was ready to accept some input lag in normal games and get used to it... but in music games where the timing and the sense of "groove" is crucial, I doubt I will...

-swex
Viche's Avatar Viche 08:45 AM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

I agree, when i update the first post tonight i will try to do this thanks for the advice

Thanks and sorry for my poor spelling on my orginal post. I was rushing.

BTW, I searched for C750 in the first post and didn't see it. Have you not had a chance to update yet, or am I looking in the wrong place?
wondras's Avatar wondras 08:54 AM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AABBCCAA View Post

While testing my LG 37LH7020 I noticed that Windows Aero adds some kind of Vsync to the primary display but not to the cloned one. I don't know if this also applies to the SMTT tool but it completely messed up my results with stopwatch, getting 10-30ms with my monitor as primary display and 40-80ms with the LG set to primary. Results stayed constant within a range of 30-50ms after changing the design to Windows classic.

I ran into the same thing -- secondary monitor not vsynced. It was very obvious with the scrolling-bar test; the second monitor always showed a split frame. I didn't realize that Aero would have any impact on this.

Fortunately, SMTT disables Aero when you run the test. It disables/ignores vsync, too, which is how the numbers can update so quickly.


Quote:


- True Motion is the only thing that adds lag

Do you know how much lag it causes? I keep hoping we'll find a set that only adds one frame of lag. I *think* this is the case for the Toshiba XV645U, which would explain why its motion processing isn't very good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swexican View Post

This is what I fear is true for most LG sets. I got my TV after reading in some reviews you could actually get below 30 ms input lag if you used Game or PC mode, but I'm starting to believe it's not true. How does AVForums.com perform their lag tests? Does anyone know?

Most sites compare against some other LCD, which itself has a questionable amount of lag. The low-resolution flatpanels.dk timer adds more inaccuracy to the mix. This is why many reported numbers are so low.

Quote:


I tried to play DJ Hero yesterday, both on Game and PC mode, and even after calibrating the game it was hard to play fluidly. It just didn't feel as right and natural as when playing GH or DJH on a tube TV. Does anyone know how calibration in music games work and how it takes into account delayed input, video and sound? Is it possible to make it work well at all? I got really odd and high numbers both on video and audio delay, maybe I did something wrong...

Video calibration makes the game compensate for the delay in the image. It pushes the position of the notes forward, so the actual output is showing them cross the "strike zone" too soon, assuming it will take time for the display to catch up.

It makes the game playable, but the visual feedback of note hits, vocal pitch, turntable fader position, etc., will still be delayed. It feels sluggish if you're used to no lag.

Same thing goes for audio. You can compensate for TVs that delay the sound to match the lagged image, or for Dolby Digital connections that have to compress/buffer/decompress the audio. Again, it makes the game playable, but screws up the audible feedback of missed notes. It's horrendous for drum fills in Rock Band.

I highly recommend using the analog L/R outputs, or disabling Dolby Digital on the digital out (PCM only), and connecting directly to an amp/speakers. It's always possible to get no-lag audio somehow, so it's well worth taking the time to do it.


Quote:


I was ready to accept some input lag in normal games and get used to it... but in music games where the timing and the sense of "groove" is crucial, I doubt I will...

If you're used to playing them on a tube TV now, you're going to have a really hard time getting used to lag in music games. I say don't bother; either take the hit on picture quality with a low-end set with an IPS panel, or go with plasma, though low lag isn't guaranteed, and current plasma models from all manufacturers have various drawbacks.
frito's Avatar frito 09:03 AM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

Thanks and sorry for my poor spelling on my orginal post. I was rushing.

BTW, I searched for C750 in the first post and didn't see it. Have you not had a chance to update yet, or am I looking in the wrong place?

never got around to doing the update last night, who tested a C750? i know we had a C350 720p set get tested and a C7000 edge LED set tested
frito's Avatar frito 09:09 AM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

I ran into the same thing -- secondary monitor not vsynced. It was very obvious with the scrolling-bar test; the second monitor always showed a split frame. I didn't realize that Aero would have any impact on this.

Fortunately, SMTT disables Aero when you run the test. It disables/ignores vsync, too, which is how the numbers can update so quickly.




Do you know how much lag it causes? I keep hoping we'll find a set that only adds one frame of lag. I *think* this is the case for the Toshiba XV645U, which would explain why its motion processing isn't very good.




Most sites compare against some other LCD, which itself has a questionable amount of lag. The low-resolution flatpanels.dk timer adds more inaccuracy to the mix. This is why many reported numbers are so low.



Video calibration makes the game compensate for the delay in the image. It pushes the position of the notes forward, so the actual output is showing them cross the "strike zone" too soon, assuming it will take time for the display to catch up.

It makes the game playable, but the visual feedback of note hits, vocal pitch, turntable fader position, etc., will still be delayed. It feels sluggish if you're used to no lag.

Same thing goes for audio. You can compensate for TVs that delay the sound to match the lagged image, or for Dolby Digital connections that have to compress/buffer/decompress the audio. Again, it makes the game playable, but screws up the audible feedback of missed notes. It's horrendous for drum fills in Rock Band.

I highly recommend using the analog L/R outputs, or disabling Dolby Digital on the digital out (PCM only), and connecting directly to an amp/speakers. It's always possible to get no-lag audio somehow, so it's well worth taking the time to do it.




If you're used to playing them on a tube TV now, you're going to have a really hard time getting used to lag in music games. I say don't bother; either take the hit on picture quality with a low-end set with an IPS panel, or go with plasma, though low lag isn't guaranteed, and current plasma models from all manufacturers have various drawbacks.

you are correct with SMTT, areo does not matter because SMTT uses DirectX

the Toshiba xv645u i owned for a short while had input lag i could feel when 120hz was active i did not bother to test it but if i had to guess based on knowing that i can barely feel 45ms lag my sony TV had with my mouse in windows the Toshiba had around 60ms input lag with 120hz on, this is also what the TV would tell my BD player its lag was via HDMI Lip sync so its fairly accurate (within 10ms i'd say)

as for coming from a CRT to a display with even just 30ms input lag can be rough esp with timing games but you can adapt to 30ms with most games, for GH/RB games you just gotta figure out what setting to set the video and audio delay at in the game to make it right for you
AABBCCAA's Avatar AABBCCAA 09:45 AM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

Do you know how much lag it causes? I keep hoping we'll find a set that only adds one frame of lag. I *think* this is the case for the Toshiba XV645U, which would explain why its motion processing isn't very good.

1 frame on low, 2-3 frames on high.
swexican's Avatar swexican 09:56 AM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

Video calibration makes the game compensate for the delay in the image. It pushes the position of the notes forward, so the actual output is showing them cross the "strike zone" too soon, assuming it will take time for the display to catch up.

It makes the game playable, but the visual feedback of note hits, vocal pitch, turntable fader position, etc., will still be delayed. It feels sluggish if you're used to no lag.

Same thing goes for audio. You can compensate for TVs that delay the sound to match the lagged image, or for Dolby Digital connections that have to compress/buffer/decompress the audio. Again, it makes the game playable, but screws up the audible feedback of missed notes. It's horrendous for drum fills in Rock Band.

Ok, thats what I thought, I just couldn't put words on it or figure out exactly how it worked. I could clearly hear that my scratches were cut in the beginning or the end but, it still counted as hits. Without visual and acoustic feedback, playing the game becomes more mechanical than anything else,

Quote:
I highly recommend using the analog L/R outputs, or disabling Dolby Digital on the digital out (PCM only), and connecting directly to an amp/speakers. It's always possible to get no-lag audio somehow, so it's well worth taking the time to do it.

Hmm, I will try that. I was using HDMI for both video and audio and then connected the optical out from the TV to the amp, but maybe that just adds delay the audio as well. That leads me to something else... Have you tried the VGA input on your LG sets? Any difference in delay?

Quote:
If you're used to playing them on a tube TV now, you're going to have a really hard time getting used to lag in music games. I say don't bother; either take the hit on picture quality with a low-end set with an IPS panel, or go with plasma, though low lag isn't guaranteed, and current plasma models from all manufacturers have various drawbacks.

*sigh* Today I will go to a friends house and play some music games on a Panasonic G10. I know it has other drawbacks, but what good is it to have a expensive (for me at least) TV I cant even play on? What upsets me is, there is still people posting (today) in the SL8000 thread on avforums.com that claim this model has no delay at all!

-swex
wondras's Avatar wondras 11:34 AM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by swexican View Post

Ok, thats what I thought, I just couldn't put words on it or figure out exactly how it worked. I could clearly hear that my scratches were cut in the beginning or the end but, it still counted as hits. Without visual and acoustic feedback, playing the game becomes more mechanical than anything else

You were right when you said it messes up the "groove" that makes these games fun. That's the best description I've heard. It's what got me started on the lag quest to begin with. (Motion sickness with sluggish 3D games was a secondary reason.)

Quote:


Hmm, I will try that. I was using HDMI for both video and audio and then connected the optical out from the TV to the amp, but maybe that just adds delay the audio as well.

This is very likely introducing a delay. It's common practice to avoid lip-sync problems.

The only set I've actually measured was a P42S1 plasma. It was obvious on drum fills that something was wrong, so I measured it. The audio lag was 50ms on all inputs, HDMI and analog. It was a *very* precise test, too - better than 1ms accuracy.

I immediately bought an audio-only dongle for the XBox as soon as I discovered this problem. The Microsoft adapter is $50 retail. Normally I'm a big believer in first-party accessories, but this is pure robbery. I bought a generic one on ebay for less than $10 that works great.

Quote:


That leads me to something else... Have you tried the VGA input on your LG sets? Any difference in delay?

At least on my LH20, it's not worth bothering with it -- no change in lag, and image quality is poor. It probably works better on the higher-end LG sets, but I doubt there's an improvement in the lag.

Quote:


*sigh* Today I will go to a friends house and play some music games on a Panasonic G10. I know it has other drawbacks, but what good is it to have a expensive (for me at least) TV I cant even play on?

I seriously considered returning the LH20 to get a P42G10 plasma, but two things held me back:

- The smaller sets are particularly prone to the black level rise problem. Even though it would still be far better than an LCD, it would just bother me to no end to know that I got stuck with this intentionally deceptive design. (I'm glad, frito, that you're happy with your X1, and hope it continues.)

- I'm not 100% convinced about its lag. I've seen conflicting reports about the game mode reducing lag. A US owner claimed no difference; a Euro review said it was 10ms faster, but neither had details about how it was tested.

I didn't get hard numbers on the P42S1 when I had it, but I'm pretty sure it was on the order of 40-50ms, which would fit with the 50ms audio lag. I didn't have sufficient evidence that the G10 is better to risk mail-ordering one. (They sure are cheap now, though!)

If you can get some numbers on the G10, I'd love to see them.


Quote:


What upsets me is, there is still people posting (today) in the SL8000 thread on avforums.com that claim this model has no delay at all!

So many times I've seen people equating "I don't notice any lag at all" and "Guitar Hero says 0ms" to the set actually having no lag... Then other people read it and post "X Set is lag free!" elsewhere, with no mention at all of where the info comes from.

And of course, people who have the set *want* to believe it has no lag, so they are easily convinced there isn't any, then spread the good word.

All you can do is test it yourself, as accurately as possible. The numbers will almost definitely be higher than anything you've seen posted, which is a bummer at first, but then you realize that knowing the true number is better than competing with exaggerated values for other models.

Good luck!
Orta's Avatar Orta 12:55 PM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

I didn't get hard numbers on the P42S1 when I had it, but I'm pretty sure it was on the order of 40-50ms, which would fit with the 50ms audio lag. I didn't have sufficient evidence that the G10 is better to risk mail-ordering one. (They sure are cheap now, though!)

If you can get some numbers on the G10, I'd love to see them.

The audio lag you note is probably there to account for 480i. HD content doesn't seem to be anywhere close to that on the '09 PDP's. I ran some tests with a laptop and flash timer in multiple picture modes and also compared the results with other's A650 findings to confirm the laptops relative accuracy. Another user ran a test against a CRT and also saw no difference b/t picture modes. His results were very close to my laptop numbers (somewhere around 20ms @ 1080p), but he did get a 30-50ms range with 480i (which I didn't measure).
wondras's Avatar wondras 01:51 PM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

The audio lag you note is probably there to account for 480i.

I guess if they are using a fixed delay, it makes sense for it to be long enough to match 480i. It would make the sound come a bit late for HD, but people aren't as sensitive to this as they are to sounds coming early. (In nature, you often see things before you hear them, due to the speed of sound.)

I did get one measurement of 75ms, but I never figured out why. Who knows, maybe the firmware was glitchy about delay when switching inputs. (That is wild speculation of course, so I hope no one repeats it. )

Quote:


HD content doesn't seem to be anywhere close to that on the '09 PDP's. I ran some tests with a laptop and flash timer in multiple picture modes and also compared the results with other's A650 findings to confirm the laptops relative accuracy. [url="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16931119&postcount=5111"]

Ah yes, yours is the post I saw that confirmed that game mode makes no difference, at least on the US model.

I haven't come across hard numbers for an S1 plasma, but I really think mine had more lag than the G10, which surprises me, given the similarities between them. I may have done a stopwatch test at 480i; I guess I'd better dig it up...
ToiletSiphon's Avatar ToiletSiphon 05:06 PM 03-16-2010
How is playing a first-person shooter on a set which has 45 to 50 ms of lag? Are you put in a big disadvantage position compared to other people you are going to play against?
kedriastral's Avatar kedriastral 05:32 PM 03-16-2010
I have an odd discovery for Samsung users. I own a LN55b650 with a CN01 panel.

I was recently messing with the game mode video settings when I happened to change my color to "native" just to see what the heck it was. All the sudden my games I was testing on seemed like they were on a different TV. I need to run some of the programs mentioned in the first post but I instantly noticed the lag in game mode when I first goet this tv. Now I can see a drastic improvement just by putting it in native color. Is this bypassing some sort of post processing? Let me know what you think or if I'm just crazy.

edit- also, I have the most updated firmware from the internet
swexican's Avatar swexican 05:42 PM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

This is very likely introducing a delay. It's common practice to avoid lip-sync problems.

Thanks wondras! It actually was the audio delay that messed up most of the experience. I did what you said and connected the audio directly to the amp and I could play GH and DJH again. At least with the guitar it's possible to play without calibration as long as you don't try to visually time the notes, only by listening to the rhythm and reading the gems a little in advance. Actually more like playing guitar by notes in real life Then I just calibrated the video and now it's as close as it can get to playing on my tube TV, not perfect but I hope it's good enough. I really thought that was a show stopper for my new TV...

Quote:


I immediately bought an audio-only dongle for the XBox as soon as I discovered this problem. The Microsoft adapter is $50 retail. Normally I'm a big believer in first-party accessories, but this is pure robbery. I bought a generic one on ebay for less than $10 that works great.

I had to connect the Xbox through VGA-cable temporarily to be able to get the audio out, and you were right, image quality is not very good (although not as bad as you describe on your TV). Could you give me a hint to what brand and model the audio-dongle is? It would save me some time getting something I know just works out of the box. Where does it connect? Front or back? It's a real shame I can't use HDMI for audio then, I hate to have more cables than necessary...

Quote:


If you can get some numbers on the G10, I'd love to see them.

I will do my best, but unless I get hold of another laptop I can only bring my Macbook to run some tests and that's not very reliable. I will try though

-swex
PbiSMe's Avatar PbiSMe 09:17 PM 03-16-2010
Hey guys I just recently bought a Sony Bravia KDL 40EX500 2010 model and i love to play games . But every time i play my 360 games ( call of duty MW2 , Madden10 , GOW2 ) i feel some lag is their ne thing that can do or buy to make my t.v get rid of that ???
frito's Avatar frito 09:19 PM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by PbiSMe View Post

Hey guys I just recently bought a Sony Bravia KDL 40EX500 2010 model and i love to play games . But every time i play my 360 games ( call of duty MW2 , Madden10 , GOW2 ) i feel some lag is their ne thing that can do or buy to make my t.v get rid of that ???

yeah its the TV all you can try to do is put it in game mode and try to play games that will work at the TV's native resolution (1080p)

otherwise yeah return it and buy something else because sony's are pretty bad for input lag
frito's Avatar frito 09:43 PM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by kedriastral View Post

I have an odd discovery for Samsung users. I own a LN55b650 with a CN01 panel.

I was recently messing with the game mode video settings when I happened to change my color to "native" just to see what the heck it was. All the sudden my games I was testing on seemed like they were on a different TV. I need to run some of the programs mentioned in the first post but I instantly noticed the lag in game mode when I first goet this tv. Now I can see a drastic improvement just by putting it in native color. Is this bypassing some sort of post processing? Let me know what you think or if I'm just crazy.

edit- also, I have the most updated firmware from the internet

interesting, you may have found an hidden mode or something.

perform some input lag tests, the CMO panels may perform differently than the better (PQ wise) AUO and S-LCD panels in those TV's.

I know that at least in the *VA PC monitor segment CMO VA LCD's have been shown to be less laggy than the other *VA's but also suffer from worse picture quality and it seems to be the case so far that if you have a *VA LCD and it is capable of relatively low input lag picture quality always seems to suffer probably due to less complex image processing and RTC used at the timing controller.
frito's Avatar frito 11:15 PM 03-16-2010
ok updated and added results and made a few changes to the main post let me know you opinions

one major thing i changed was i not only colored each TV model by their performance but i also colored the resolution/pic mode settings to reflect their result as there are many good performing TV's that only perform that good under the right conditions.

I also broke down how i'm slotting each color group

green's are the best and have no more than 2 frames of lag (32ms)

Blue's are the middle of the road TV's that will perform fine for many people but not all and have no more than 3 frames of lag (48ms)

Red's are anything exceeding 3 frames of lag (49+ms input lag) i do realize that some TV's on the lower end of this scale can be acceptable to some people for gaming but i think that most gamers that care about how their TV's perform will want to avoid these anyways because this is where it really starts to get noticeable to anyone that is looking for it and it definitely impacts gameplay whether they notice it or not

let me know what you guys think, i know it kind of makes it harder to pick out each model's test section but the only thing i can think of is to underline the model names to attempt to separate them.

to Viche i've yet to come across a C750 lag test in this thread, maybe it's somewhere else? ill see i i can find it but otherwise until more information and testing is done on the current C series Samsung's its very unclear how they perform overall and their test results seem to vary from good to downright horrible (150ms lag anyone????)
wondras's Avatar wondras 11:59 PM 03-16-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by kedriastral View Post

I have an odd discovery for Samsung users. I own a LN55b650 with a CN01 panel.

I was recently messing with the game mode video settings when I happened to change my color to "native" just to see what the heck it was. All the sudden my games I was testing on seemed like they were on a different TV. I need to run some of the programs mentioned in the first post but I instantly noticed the lag in game mode when I first goet this tv. Now I can see a drastic improvement just by putting it in native color. Is this bypassing some sort of post processing? Let me know what you think or if I'm just crazy.

edit- also, I have the most updated firmware from the internet

If this really does help, you will have made a lot of Samsung owners very happy.

I would be really surprised if it does help, though. It could be skipping a color correction step, but this is usually so fast that I can't see how it would matter.

("Native" color temp is what the LCD panel produces when you send unmodified RGB levels to it. The warm/medium/cool settings on a TV tweak the RGB values to approximate a different color temp from what the panel actually has. Choosing "Native" may bypass this step, but this type of correction is usually not an intensive process, and happens along with the user's brightness/color/tint settings.)

It's more likely that the change in colors is making some objects more noticeable to you, which could make it feel snappier. It's definitely worth taking some measurements, though!
swexican's Avatar swexican 06:28 AM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

as for coming from a CRT to a display with even just 30ms input lag can be rough esp with timing games but you can adapt to 30ms with most games, for GH/RB games you just gotta figure out what setting to set the video and audio delay at in the game to make it right for you

I really hope so... yesterday I actually started to feel the motion sickness I had the first days but didn't think of again. Hope its not because of the lag! Read something about the backlight level having to do with it as well.

And I thought I had read enough about LCD's before buying one! I didn't even know it could make you feel sick. But I suppose you get used to that too

-swex
Tags: Lcd Hdtv , Displays , Plasma Hdtv , Sony Bravia Kdl 55ex500 Series 55 Inch Lcd Tv Black
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