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LCD Flat Panel Displays > Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference
kedriastral's Avatar kedriastral 07:02 AM 03-17-2010
I did some quick tests with my laptop connected to the LN55b650 and for some odd reason I can't get it out of PC mode. I have some video and images that I will post once I get them all converted but I was getting a SOLID 35 ms lag in HDMI/DVI 1 (locked in PC mode). I need to check again what the color setting was but if it makes a difference to change the color mode that should be a good baseline.

And wondras I agree with you, it really shouldn't make a difference. But even if the tv is holding 1 frame for post-processing at 16.6ms a frame thats a jump from good gaming at 35ms to a noticeable difference at 50ms. I'll run more tests today comparing native and auto and get the images and videos posted. But I am definatly not getting the 50-65ms lag that people are reporting from the 40inch S and A panels.

swexican's Avatar swexican 07:55 AM 03-17-2010
I did some tests again with the LG SL8500, same setup as before but this time with the SMTT software instead (thanks frito). Remember, I'm still using a PC LCD monitor (supposedly a fast one), and up scaling on the TV to 1080. I'm not showing any pictures since I don't know the accuracy yet but as soon as I have a CRT at home I will. As this was just a quick test I took only about 5 pics on each test. I just wanted to share some thoughts with you...

First a questions... Am I always supposed to pick the highest numbers on both screens? Even if it has just started to appear barely? That's where the whole difference in a frame goes and quite important for the numbers... Does the shutter speed impact these numbers in any way? I mostly get pretty clear pictures, but sometimes I see the next upcoming number vaguely.

So, now to the results...

Test 1, DVI -> Monitor, VGA -> TV: Mostly 34 ms, but getting 17 ms sometimes when I see next number

Test 2, VGA -> Monitor, DVI -> TV(hdmi1), Game profile: 34ms, very consistent results

Test 2, VGA -> Monitor, DVI -> TV(hdmi1), Expert 1 profile: 34ms, but getting 50ms sometimes when I see next numer

Now I can't remember if I did these test with input labeled as PC but it feels like it doesn't matter with a computer connected. The only time the PC label does anything visually is when the Xbox is connected. When I change input label, it goes dark for a second and comes back with a more washed out image. With the computer connected I don't know what mode it is using, either it doesn't change or it's always on PC mode whatever label, I don't really know. So I can't really know the input lag I have when I play, as the TV acts differently depending on source

-swex
Viche's Avatar Viche 08:58 AM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

ok updated and added results and made a few changes to the main post let me know you opinions

one major thing i changed was i not only colored each TV model by their performance but i also colored the resolution/pic mode settings to reflect their result as there are many good performing TV's that only perform that good under the right conditions.

I also broke down how i'm slotting each color group

green's are the best and have no more than 2 frames of lag (32ms)

Blue's are the middle of the road TV's that will perform fine for many people but not all and have no more than 3 frames of lag (48ms)

Red's are anything exceeding 3 frames of lag (49+ms input lag) i do realize that some TV's on the lower end of this scale can be acceptable to some people for gaming but i think that most gamers that care about how their TV's perform will want to avoid these anyways because this is where it really starts to get noticeable to anyone that is looking for it and it definitely impacts gameplay whether they notice it or not

let me know what you guys think, i know it kind of makes it harder to pick out each model's test section but the only thing i can think of is to underline the model names to attempt to separate them.

to Viche i've yet to come across a C750 lag test in this thread, maybe it's somewhere else? ill see i i can find it but otherwise until more information and testing is done on the current C series Samsung's its very unclear how they perform overall and their test results seem to vary from good to downright horrible (150ms lag anyone????)


Sorry, it was a C7000
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post18292142
Viche's Avatar Viche 08:59 AM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by kedriastral View Post

I did some quick tests with my laptop connected to the LN55b650 and for some odd reason I can't get it out of PC mode. I have some video and images that I will post once I get them all converted but I was getting a SOLID 35 ms lag in HDMI/DVI 1 (locked in PC mode). I need to check again what the color setting was but if it makes a difference to change the color mode that should be a good baseline.

And wondras I agree with you, it really shouldn't make a difference. But even if the tv is holding 1 frame for post-processing at 16.6ms a frame thats a jump from good gaming at 35ms to a noticeable difference at 50ms. I'll run more tests today comparing native and auto and get the images and videos posted. But I am definatly not getting the 50-65ms lag that people are reporting from the 40inch S and A panels.

So this is a C panel? Which input were you using when you first noticed the difference in lag?

Definitely keep trying with the test. Results would be very interesting.
frito's Avatar frito 09:14 AM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by swexican View Post

I did some tests again with the LG SL8500, same setup as before but this time with the SMTT software instead (thanks frito). Remember, I'm still using a PC LCD monitor (supposedly a fast one), and up scaling on the TV to 1080. I'm not showing any pictures since I don't know the accuracy yet but as soon as I have a CRT at home I will. As this was just a quick test I took only about 5 pics on each test. I just wanted to share some thoughts with you...

First a questions... Am I always supposed to pick the highest numbers on both screens? Even if it has just started to appear barely? That's where the whole difference in a frame goes and quite important for the numbers... Does the shutter speed impact these numbers in any way? I mostly get pretty clear pictures, but sometimes I see the next upcoming number vaguely.

So, now to the results...

Test 1, DVI -> Monitor, VGA -> TV: Mostly 34 ms, but getting 17 ms sometimes when I see next number

Test 2, VGA -> Monitor, DVI -> TV(hdmi1), Game profile: 34ms, very consistent results

Test 2, VGA -> Monitor, DVI -> TV(hdmi1), Expert 1 profile: 34ms, but getting 50ms sometimes when I see next numer

Now I can't remember if I did these test with input labeled as PC but it feels like it doesn't matter with a computer connected. The only time the PC label does anything visually is when the Xbox is connected. When I change input label, it goes dark for a second and comes back with a more washed out image. With the computer connected I don't know what mode it is using, either it doesn't change or it's always on PC mode whatever label, I don't really know. So I can't really know the input lag I have when I play, as the TV acts differently depending on source

-swex

Yes with SMTT you always want the find the two highest numbers to find the input lag of the display and the difference between the just starting to appear number and the next lowest one that is readable is roughly what the pixel lag of your LCD is so it does matter somewhat to gamers as well

as for shutter speeds, when testing 2 LCD's you can use the highest shutter speed your camera is capable of and this will remove camera CCD induced blur from the test, if your testing on a CRT however you must use 1/60 or else you will not see much on the CRT (the rise and fall time of phosphors on a CRT is measured in fractions of a millisecond)

lastly, you can always try tricks like labeling an input PC or game, this works on some displays and not on others. notably samsung has their special very limited PC mode and Toshiba's have game and PC picture modes that do impact input lag. both of these modes impact picture quality in some way however
frito's Avatar frito 09:15 AM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

Sorry, it was a C7000
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post18292142

Yeah i got that one, i stuck it in the green section for now but i'm really weary of recommending that TV still just based on 1 photo showing low lag and according to the owner it was only in the special PC mode with LED motion turned on, when he shut off LED motion and it was in PC mode still it had 150ms input lag!

it just does not make sense why it would change so dramatically
kedriastral's Avatar kedriastral 09:40 AM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

So this is a C panel? Which input were you using when you first noticed the difference in lag?

Definitely keep trying with the test. Results would be very interesting.

Viche, I am using HDMI/DVI 1 but the HDMI inputs arn't where I'm seeing the input lag decrease, its by changing the color from "auto" to "native". I'm going to do some tests tonight as soon as i get a chance and get all the data posted.

Once I get some solid data i'll switch the HDMI ports too because I'm seeing some other odd results with people using HDMI 2 and 3 with different sets.

And yes, this is a C panel.
kedriastral's Avatar kedriastral 02:50 PM 03-17-2010
Ok Frito I'm in need of some help. Whenever I connect my laptop to the TV, it is stuck in PC mode and I cannot change the color settings. I don't know how to get around this. The TV seems to sense a PC and lock it in a PC only mode that has very few features. But the results I did come up with were pretty interesting.

LN55b650 - CN01 panel - Firmware version 05_001017 - Control was a laptop connected HDMI or VGA
HDMI/DVI 1 - PC Mode

30ms
27ms
48ms
19ms
40ms
25ms
28ms
34ms
31ms
39ms
29ms
average - 31.8ms

HDMI 2 - PC Mode

27ms
31ms
39ms
30ms
39ms
35ms
39ms
40ms
30ms
19ms
average 32.9ms (approx same as HDMI 1)

VGA port
20ms
10ms
23ms
14ms
23ms
31ms
29ms
18ms
20ms
18ms
26ms
Average - 21.09ms

In conclusion, HDMI 1 and 2 bore no difference (neither did 3 or 4) but VGA mode definatly cut a frame out of the buffer. But I can't change the color mode to native at all. I have a hunch that the native color setting is doing the exact same thing as the VGA mode and will yield the 21ms lag time using the HDMI connection.

If someone can think of a way to get the TV out of PC mode (renaming it to something else does not work) I can test it with color setting changes.
theslug's Avatar theslug 03:59 PM 03-17-2010
Speaking strictly in terms of input lag, can anyone recommend a 34"+ tv for the Wii? I've tried the Wii on another tv but there is too much lag making games like New Super Mario almost unplayable because it requires precision-timed movements. So I'm looking for a set that has minimal lag and is good for the Wii, with other considerations secondary.

Thanks in advance
wondras's Avatar wondras 05:40 PM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by theslug View Post

Speaking strictly in terms of input lag, can anyone recommend a 34"+ tv for the Wii? I've tried the Wii on another tv but there is too much lag making games like New Super Mario almost unplayable because it requires precision-timed movements. So I'm looking for a set that has minimal lag and is good for the Wii, with other considerations secondary.

Info on the 2010 models is just starting to come in, so it's not entirely clear if there's a sure bet just yet. If you can still find one, a Panasonic TC-L37S1 or L37X1 would be a definite winner for your needs.


For now, make sure the Wii is set to output 480p instead of 480i, and make sure the TV has game mode enabled (if it has one), and/or motion smoothing disabled (if it's a 120/240Hz model.) This will make sure the TV you have now is doing its best.
wondras's Avatar wondras 05:47 PM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by kedriastral View Post

Viche, I am using HDMI/DVI 1 but the HDMI inputs arn't where I'm seeing the input lag decrease, its by changing the color from "auto" to "native". I'm going to do some tests tonight as soon as i get a chance and get all the data posted.

Once I get some solid data i'll switch the HDMI ports too because I'm seeing some other odd results with people using HDMI 2 and 3 with different sets.

And yes, this is a C panel.


What is the full name of this setting, and what are the available options? If "auto" is the alternative to "native", it's not the sort of color temp setting I was mentioning previously.

To continue speculating about what this is and why it might make a difference, it might be affecting 8-bit vs 10-bit processing, which could cause a speed difference. Isn't the C panel 8-bit?
kedriastral's Avatar kedriastral 05:53 PM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

What is the full name of this setting, and what are the available options? If "auto" is the alternative to "native", it's not the sort of color temp setting I was mentioning previously.

To continue speculating about what this is and why it might make a difference, it might be affecting 8-bit vs 10-bit processing, which could cause a speed difference. Isn't the C panel 8-bit?


The setting name doesn't have a name per-se, its just HDMI 1 renamed to PC and it runs in PC mode. But it doesn't seem to come out of that mode with my laptop connected no matter what I do.

In PC mode I can control brightness, backlight, and contrast in the main menu
In advanced, only dynamic contrast, gamma and white balance were available (gamma was 0, white balance default, dynamic contrast off). In picture options I can only change the size.

The ln55b650 uses the 10bit C panel, all the other C panels on the b series are 8 bit.
felonyr301's Avatar felonyr301 05:57 PM 03-17-2010
The auto and native thing hes talking about is the color space setting, auto is the most accurate setting for Samsungs and native states it is "wide color range" and auto states "adjusts optimal color range automatically". So maybe it could be a reason why it is a little lower in native than auto. Interesting find though... too bad one hasn't tested all three modes as in native, auto, and custom where one can calibrate to fine tune the colors to see which one is actually lower in input lag.

The native is off though in colors when comparing auto to native, at first glance native is more saturated (more colorful) but the green and yellows is off.
kedriastral's Avatar kedriastral 06:05 PM 03-17-2010
You're right felony, the native is way off in the color scale. But,if anyone knows a way to trick the tv to not displaying in PC mode I could test all the different color scale settings. Though I doubt it will really improve that much over the 32ms I'm already getting. The best i bet to see is 1 frame improvement and end up around 20ms like in VGA mode. (I think VGA mode is negating this auto color space and that is the difference as I mentioned above)
theslug's Avatar theslug 07:16 PM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

Info on the 2010 models is just starting to come in, so it's not entirely clear if there's a sure bet just yet. If you can still find one, a Panasonic TC-L37S1 or L37X1 would be a definite winner for your needs.


For now, make sure the Wii is set to output 480p instead of 480i, and make sure the TV has game mode enabled (if it has one), and/or motion smoothing disabled (if it's a 120/240Hz model.) This will make sure the TV you have now is doing its best.

Thanks wondras. Is there noticable blurring with those LCDs? What do you think about the samsung 42b450 (a plasma)?
frito's Avatar frito 07:33 PM 03-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by kedriastral View Post

You're right felony, the native is way off in the color scale. But,if anyone knows a way to trick the tv to not displaying in PC mode I could test all the different color scale settings. Though I doubt it will really improve that much over the 32ms I'm already getting. The best i bet to see is 1 frame improvement and end up around 20ms like in VGA mode. (I think VGA mode is negating this auto color space and that is the difference as I mentioned above)

i think if you were to take it out of PC mode your input lag will skyrocket and no setting will lower it.

try changing resolution on your laptop to 720p that should force it out of PC mode, it is odd that the TV seems to recognize its a laptop and force the special PC mode though, i've never heard of that happening before with a PC and a TV but its not impossible.

by they way what brand is your laptop and its video card?
T-una's Avatar T-una 04:14 AM 03-18-2010
Hi there,

I have found an input lag chart which issued by a Greek forum...

Quote:


Originally Posted by Yperion View Post
MARCA - MODELLO - STANDARD -GAME
Panasonic TX-P46G10 5 ms 5 ms
Panasonic TX-L32V10E 5 ms 5 ms
Sharp 46 LE700 80 ms 5 ms
LG 47SL8000 30 ms 10 ms
Philips 46PFL9704 160 ms 10 ms
Philips 32PFL8404 170 ms 10 ms
Samsung LE52A558P3 40 ms 10 ms
Samsung PS50B850 80 ms 10 ms
Sharp LC46D65E 10 ms 10 ms
Philips 42PFL5604 170 ms 10 ms
Panasonic TX-42V10E 20 ms 20 ms
Philips 42PFL8654 170 ms 20 ms
Philips 47PFL8404 170 ms 20 ms
Samsung PS63B680 90 ms 20 ms
Samsung LE40A856 40 ms 20 ms
Sharp LC 42DH77E 40 ms 20 ms
Sharp 46 LE600 20 ms 20 ms
Sharp 40 LE600 20 ms 20 ms
Sharp 40 LE700 20 ms 20 ms
Toshiba 40LV685 50 ms 20 ms
Toshiba 37RV635DR 30 ms 20 ms
Sony 46Z4500 60 ms 25 ms
LG 47LH5000 30 ms 30 ms
Panasonic TX-50V10E 40 ms 30 ms
Samsung LE46B750 110 ms 30 ms
Samsung LE40B550 60 ms 30 ms
Samsung LE46A956 50 ms 30 ms
Sony 46V5500 30 ms 30 ms
Sony 52Z5500 30 ms 30 ms
LG 50PS8000 50 ms 40 ms
LG 42LH5000 50 ms 40 ms
Toshiba 42ZV635 50 ms 40 ms
Toshiba 55SV685 70 ms 40 ms
Sony 46W5500 40 ms 40 ms
LG 37LH4000 50 ms 50 ms
Samsung 40B6000 130 ms 50 ms
Samsung 46B6000 70 ms 50 ms
Samsung LE40B750 110 ms 50 ms
Samsung LE40B650 100 ms 50 ms
Sony 32W5500 50 ms 50 ms
Samsung 46B7000 100 ms 60 ms
Samsung 40B8000 90 ms 60 ms
Samsung 40B7000 110 ms 70 ms
Samsung LE46B650 100 ms 70 ms
Sony 40ZX1 120 ms 70 ms
Sharp LC52XS1 110 ms 80 ms

I wonder what you guys think about these results, especially 32PFL8404 and 32W5500...

I was considering to buy 40EX500 (EU), but I bumped out with your comments according to one of input lag demonstration on youtube (I think that guy is from Germany, so 40EX500 should be with BE3)...

So, I think I have to face 32" 's due to AUO paneled 37" 's and more expensive 40" 's...
kedriastral's Avatar kedriastral 05:59 AM 03-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

i think if you were to take it out of PC mode your input lag will skyrocket and no setting will lower it.

try changing resolution on your laptop to 720p that should force it out of PC mode, it is odd that the TV seems to recognize its a laptop and force the special PC mode though, i've never heard of that happening before with a PC and a TV but its not impossible.

by they way what brand is your laptop and its video card?

Thanks Frito that fixed it! I was able to get the ln55b650 out of pc mode by switching it to 1080x720. I had posted all the results last night but for some reason my post isn't showing up. By the way the laptop was a HP HDX 16 with a Geforce 9600m.

All settings were with dynamic contrast, edge enhancement, Digital noise reduction and all other features off. All others color settings were set to default or zero.

Here's all the results so far:
LN55b650 - CN01 Panel - Firmware 017
HDMI/DVI 1 - Normal display setting - PC Mode - 32ms
HDMI/DVI 1 - Game mode on - -Normal display setting - Auto color - 32ms
HDMI/DVI 1 - Game mode on - Normal display setting - Native Color - 21ms
HDMI 2 - PC Mode - 32ms (no change between inputs)

VGA input - Normal display setting - 21 ms

In conclusion, the VGA input is doing the same as Game mode with color set to native as I initially thought. The 21ms reading is much better than the

Samsung LE46B650 100 ms 70 ms

I'm not sure if the lag is that panel dependent but it sure is interesting. I have most the videos on my cam corder if anyone has to see the results themselves.
swexican's Avatar swexican 08:27 AM 03-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

Finally, here are some real numbers for my LG 37LH20...

wondras,

I took a look at the pictures from your test and I was wondering something about my own results I got the other day with the SMTT software.

On your tests, you get different numbers on every row, and always a little fuzzy. In my own tests I have the same number clearly visible on every row, and its always on the top row I start to see the next coming number vaguely. Also, the difference between last number and the new is exactly 17ms...

Something like:
50.223 (fuzzy)
50.206
50.206
50.206

What does this mean? Do I have wrong settings on the camera?

-swex
szymon247's Avatar szymon247 09:09 AM 03-18-2010
kedriastral - is there a way to play with 100hz mode on? Also, Is it possible to turn it on in VGA mode? If so how does the input lag look then? I'm considering getting the 40 inch version and that's all that's keeping me from buying it. I'd love to play in 100hz to reduce the blur while having a not-too-outrageous input lag.
frito's Avatar frito 09:22 AM 03-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by kedriastral View Post

Thanks Frito that fixed it! I was able to get the ln55b650 out of pc mode by switching it to 1080x720. I had posted all the results last night but for some reason my post isn't showing up. By the way the laptop was a HP HDX 16 with a Geforce 9600m.

All settings were with dynamic contrast, edge enhancement, Digital noise reduction and all other features off. All others color settings were set to default or zero.

Here's all the results so far:
LN55b650 - CN01 Panel - Firmware 017
HDMI/DVI 1 - Normal display setting - PC Mode - 32ms
HDMI/DVI 1 - Game mode on - -Normal display setting - Auto color - 32ms
HDMI/DVI 1 - Game mode on - Normal display setting - Native Color - 21ms
HDMI 2 - PC Mode - 32ms (no change between inputs)

VGA input - Normal display setting - 21 ms

In conclusion, the VGA input is doing the same as Game mode with color set to native as I initially thought. The 21ms reading is much better than the

Samsung LE46B650 100 ms 70 ms

I'm not sure if the lag is that panel dependent but it sure is interesting. I have most the videos on my cam corder if anyone has to see the results themselves.

interesting, i'm pretty sure the input lag is largely dependent on the panel you get, MVA's have been shown to have worse picture quality and less input lag than PVA's in the PC monitor segment so it would explain why the S and A panel Samsungs lag about 30ms more than your C panel on average
Viche's Avatar Viche 09:24 AM 03-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by kedriastral View Post

Thanks Frito that fixed it! I was able to get the ln55b650 out of pc mode by switching it to 1080x720. I had posted all the results last night but for some reason my post isn't showing up. By the way the laptop was a HP HDX 16 with a Geforce 9600m.

All settings were with dynamic contrast, edge enhancement, Digital noise reduction and all other features off. All others color settings were set to default or zero.

Here's all the results so far:
LN55b650 - CN01 Panel - Firmware 017
HDMI/DVI 1 - Normal display setting - PC Mode - 32ms
HDMI/DVI 1 - Game mode on - -Normal display setting - Auto color - 32ms
HDMI/DVI 1 - Game mode on - Normal display setting - Native Color - 21ms
HDMI 2 - PC Mode - 32ms (no change between inputs)

VGA input - Normal display setting - 21 ms

In conclusion, the VGA input is doing the same as Game mode with color set to native as I initially thought. The 21ms reading is much better than the

Samsung LE46B650 100 ms 70 ms

I'm not sure if the lag is that panel dependent but it sure is interesting. I have most the videos on my cam corder if anyone has to see the results themselves.

WOW. Very interesting. Now someone needs to test the other Samsung models to see if native color affects lag.

I'm surpised that PC mode did not force the set into Native color though.

How do games look in native color? Maybe you could calibrate the set (via the service menu) to accomodate the native mode and thereby fix the colors.
kedriastral's Avatar kedriastral 09:27 AM 03-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by szymon247 View Post

kedriastral - is there a way to play with 100hz mode on? Also, Is it possible to turn it on in VGA mode? If so how does the input lag look then? I'm considering getting the 40 inch version and that's all that's keeping me from buying it. I'd love to play in 100hz to reduce the blur while having a not-too-outrageous input lag.

Yea you can definatly play with 100(120hz for us americans)hz on when you play over HDMI. But not on VGA.

I will tell you that I will highly recommend not doing this on any tv really. The 100/120hz is by far the leading cause of input lag and while it is playable at 60-90ms lag, you will be at a huge disadvantage.

During some testing with heavy rain on the ps3 I found that the 120hz would actually smear out some of the detail of the falling rain due to the antiblur and anti judder. It almost made the screen look like it wasn't even raining anymore. Not good.

Now you said you want to play "100hz to reduce the blurr" now you will get less blur but at a horrible cost. I play a lot of MW2 and I have no blurring and 20ms lag is fine for me.

Be warned though, my tests were for the 55inch which can be a different panel all together than the 40. This could result in much different, and even unacceptable, input lag.
kedriastral's Avatar kedriastral 09:44 AM 03-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

WOW. Very interesting. Now someone needs to test the other Samsung models to see if native color affects lag.

I'm surpised that PC mode did not force the set into Native color though.

How do games look in native color? Maybe you could calibrate the set (via the service menu) to accomodate the native mode and thereby fix the colors.

Yea I thought it would force it into native also but it was Auto. The native color has a pretty harsh green and yellow push. Greens look a little neon. But thankfully its on games where its hard to relate it to the real color.

Either way I'll quit hijacking this thread now and I'm looking forward to see some more results!
szymon247's Avatar szymon247 09:47 AM 03-18-2010
Thanks!

I have a 3 year old S-PVA PC display with input lag at around 35ms and while it doesn't bother me I find blurring really annoying in some games.
I played a few times on LG H4000 and Sony Z4500 with 100/200hz modes on and I liked it more than in 50/60hz mainly because of smooth motion and no visible blurring. I don't know how the blurring looks on B650 but I really love its picture quality - especially colors.
And now I don't know if I could play quite comfortably with 100hz on B650 or get something with S-IPS like LG or Panasonic which have inferior image quality - especially colors and black levels but lower lag allowing to play with 100hz on.
wondras's Avatar wondras 11:03 AM 03-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by swexican View Post

wondras,

I took a look at the pictures from your test and I was wondering something about my own results I got the other day with the SMTT software.

On your tests, you get different numbers on every row, and always a little fuzzy. In my own tests I have the same number clearly visible on every row, and its always on the top row I start to see the next coming number vaguely. Also, the difference between last number and the new is exactly 17ms...

Something like:
50.223 (fuzzy)
50.206
50.206
50.206

What does this mean? Do I have wrong settings on the camera?

-swex

It's not the camera; SMTT isn't working the way it's supposed to. The numbers on each line should be different. 0.017 (17ms) is the correct amount for each number to change between frames, but each row should be .001-.003 higher than the one above it. I think something is being vsynced when it shouldn't be.

A few things to check:

- The 'Framerate' value in the center of the screen should be over 1,000 if you have a decent video card.
- Make sure you have the latest video card drivers and DirectX runtime. (DirectX does *not* come through Windows Update, which is unfortunate.)
- If you have a video card with a fancy control panel for setting 3D options (nVidia, ATI), make sure you don't have settings forced; "use application default" or "let the application decide" is what you want. Also, if there's an option to enable/disable vsync, set it to disabled.
sharky974's Avatar sharky974 12:02 PM 03-18-2010
Wow so, I returned my Phillips 42PFL3704D yesterday for the Toshiba 40rv525r...because the Tosh has a game mode more or less.

I guess this isn't about lag but my initial impressions are the Toshiba is absolute garbage compared to the Phillips. The difference is staggering, and I'm far from a videophile so I dont know the terms to use but I know what I see.

The Toshiba picture just looks absolutely awful comparatively on either SD or HD. The Phillips just exuded this wonderful warmth, the Toshiba is cold, grainy and dead. I can tell the Tosh has a horrible scaler, and that's why SD looks so bad.

The menu GUI and usability on the Tosh is absolutely horrible by comparison too. For example, digital channels (I guess the ".1" channels, like 10.1) are handled flawlessly with no adjustments on the phillips in the normal channels, IE if you're on channel 10 and press up, you go to 10.1 if available, then 11 etc seamlessly. With the Tosh you have to manually enter them using the clunky "+100" button. There may be a setting to fix this on the Tosh I dont know yet, this is the way it is out of the box. And the menu graphics feel like theyre from 1980 again to me on the Tosh. When coupled with the awful picture it makes the whole set feel horribly dated to me. Just terrible. It also appears the Toshiba along with a horrible everything else probably has horrible reception. The Phillips picked every over the air HD channel up with ease with no antenna (I have SD cable with no cable box, so for network HD I use over the air signals), so far one I tried on the Tosh gave a "low signal" blue screen. Great.

It does seem the Toshiba has a lot more options, the Phillips is a very plug and play simple set, but I kind of liked that too. All it lacks is a game mode.

I'm sure I'll get used to this crappy picture eventually, but damn does this Toshiba suck compared to that Phillips. Wow.

I've already returned two sets and dont want to return yet another, so I guess I'm stuck too.

I mean I guess I got the Tosh for the game mode, but for everything else it's a joke compared to the Phillips. If this is what the Japanese are putting out no wonder the Koreans and Europeans are probably killing them in television.

No wonder when you go on sites user reviews I always noticed that Phillips was getting 5 stars while Toshibas get meh reviews.
kedriastral's Avatar kedriastral 12:06 PM 03-18-2010
If you're not happy, return that sucker. Who cares if you already returned 2. Its not like they put you on a wall of shame after 3. Get what you want or get your money back.
wondras's Avatar wondras 12:27 PM 03-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky974 View Post

I mean I guess I got the Tosh for the game mode, but for everything else it's a joke compared to the Phillips.

I hate to say it, but I'm pretty sure the 525 isn't great lag-wise.

When I did my in-store testing, I wasn't able to get my laptop to handshake, so I didn't get any framecount photos. From a manual Rock Band calibration, I got the impression that it is significantly slower than the 645U, even in game mode. I'm guessing 50ms or more.

I'm curious what you find if you do a real stopwatch test on it (assuming you can get the HDMI port to hook up to your PC. I was using a MacBook Pro with DVI output; a proper HDMI output might do better.) I haven't said too much here about my store tests, because they weren't really conclusive, but I'm curious how well I've pegged this one.

Regardless of lag, if you hate the picture, return it. KVW went through something like 15 sets. He's probably on a "customers we hate" list, but there's not much they can do about it.

Alternatively, drag a laptop and camera to the store and tell them what you want to do. Give them the choice of letting you do some tests, or buying and returning sets until you find one you like.
swexican's Avatar swexican 12:52 PM 03-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

It's not the camera; SMTT isn't working the way it's supposed to. The numbers on each line should be different. 0.017 (17ms) is the correct amount for each number to change between frames, but each row should be .001-.003 higher than the one above it. I think something is being vsynced when it shouldn't be.

A few things to check:

- The 'Framerate' value in the center of the screen should be over 1,000 if you have a decent video card.
- Make sure you have the latest video card drivers and DirectX runtime. (DirectX does *not* come through Windows Update, which is unfortunate.)
- If you have a video card with a fancy control panel for setting 3D options (nVidia, ATI), make sure you don't have settings forced; "use application default" or "let the application decide" is what you want. Also, if there's an option to enable/disable vsync, set it to disabled.

This might sound stupid and obvious to you guys but I need to ask anyway I just dragged home a fat CRT and would need to have this done tonight or I'll get kicked out

If a normal CRT accept framerates between 50 and 120 Hz, how can I send 1000Hz to it? When I run the SMTT it maxes on the framerate I had set on the montitor, 85Hz in this case.

I did install DirectX and I'm looking through all the video settings. Would a ATI Radeon 9700 Pro not be enough for these kind of tests?
Tags: Lcd Hdtv , Displays , Plasma Hdtv , Sony Bravia Kdl 55ex500 Series 55 Inch Lcd Tv Black
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