Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 4276 Old 03-31-2010, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

I think you're talking about adjusting the white balance from the TVs normal menu, which increases lag.

What I'm talking about is going into the service menu and messing with colors there and then saving that as a profile similar to "standard" "dynamic" or "movie". If you could do this low level calibration with native on and white balance all at default, maybe you could achieve good colors and then use this profile when in game mode.

The question is, would adusting colors in the service menu affect lag?

good question, it seems to me that by setting native color mode your further disabling picture processing in the TV that introduces lag, by forcing the TV to change the settings in the SM its probably going to introduce lag

just my guess that is all

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #722 of 4276 Old 03-31-2010, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by swexican View Post

I'm also very tempted on getting the new G20 plasma. It has the features that were lacking on the G10.


Unfortunately, these features come at a high price.

G20
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...0100308169.htm

G10
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...0090415146.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvtest View Post

Note: Our resident Samsung LE52F96BD with [Game Mode] engaged has about 30ms of latent input lag vs a CRT.

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post #723 of 4276 Old 03-31-2010, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by AABBCCAA View Post

Unfortunately, these features come at a high price.

G20
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...0100308169.htm

G10
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...0090415146.htm

Well, I lost faith in those reviews anyways when it comes to input lag. avforums.com measures something else:

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Pana...TV-Review.html

Quote:


I measured the TX-P42G20 as having around 21ms of input lag when compared to a lag-free CRT computer monitor.

It's funny how they suddenly mention what control display they use after I wrote in the forums about possible reasons for their lack of accuracy compared to other reports. It's probably just a coincidence but still...
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post #724 of 4276 Old 03-31-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swexican View Post

Well, I lost faith in those reviews anyways when it comes to input lag. avforums.com measures something else:

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Pana...TV-Review.html



It's funny how they suddenly mention what control display they use after I wrote in the forums about possible reasons for their lack of accuracy compared to other reports. It's probably just a coincidence but still...

Nice! It still doesn't say how they are testing it, so it could still be way off. I doubt it, though.

Another good reason not to trust them is the statement that "the Panasonic TX-P42G20 has no significant flaws whatsoever." It's already been proven that they do have black level rise, it's just in smaller, more frequent increments than before. No one knows where they'll end up, but it's certainly at least worth mentioning.
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post #725 of 4276 Old 03-31-2010, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swexican View Post

Well, I lost faith in those reviews anyways when it comes to input lag. avforums.com measures something else:

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Pana...TV-Review.html



It's funny how they suddenly mention what control display they use after I wrote in the forums about possible reasons for their lack of accuracy compared to other reports. It's probably just a coincidence but still...


Oh nevermind then, I did not see this review before. I was worried that all 2010 Panasonic TVs would perform worse because of superior image processing, nice to see that this is not the case.

Why are you so worried about the black level thing? As far as I understand, they are still 10 times better than any IPS panel on the market.
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post #726 of 4276 Old 03-31-2010, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AABBCCAA View Post

Why are you so worried about the black level thing? As far as I understand, they are still 10 times better than any IPS panel on the market.

Basically two reasons:

- If I pay more in part to get a TV with better black levels, I want them to stay that way. If it's not going to be *really* black, then it's just a question of degrees of lightness, so it's not important enough to me to justify the extra expense.
- There are reports of increased image retention after the MLL rise.

I think also that I just don't want to be perpetually worrying about, questioning and testing performance of the set. As it is, I still follow the 7500+ post black level thread, I guess out of morbid curiosity, and to feel like I made the right decision...

Maybe I'm overreacting, and missing out on a great experience. I just don't want take the risk.
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post #727 of 4276 Old 04-01-2010, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

Another good reason not to trust them is the statement that "the Panasonic TX-P42G20 has no significant flaws whatsoever." It's already been proven that they do have black level rise, it's just in smaller, more frequent increments than before. No one knows where they'll end up, but it's certainly at least worth mentioning.

Here is their explanation to that:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/hardw...l#post11779894

Quote:


Do you have first hand experience with this issue? We have yet to see any such issues with UK sets and Panasonic has yet to confirm if it affects any of the 2009 UK models. If you watch our video with interviews from Panasonic product specialists they say there will be no issues with black levels on the 2010 models in the UK. As for the US, which is the forum you linked too, there may be issues with US sets on a handful of occasions, but these are not the same as the UK models. I have not seen any UK review sites worth their salt say any such things.
So, yes do some research, but remember there are no documented cases in the UK with measurements to back up any claims and that the US market is different to the UK. There is however a lot of speculation and rumour being put forward as fact on the internet such as posts like above, which have no basis in any fact but rather continues to spread rumour and speculation. I am not for one minute backing Panasonic or supporting them, but rather stating that until there are facts and measurements to suggest there are issues in the UK, its all speculation and should be presented as such instead of trying to say its fact.

I find it hard to believe that the UK and US models would differ in something as fundamental as that though, especially when they claim it's a feature and not a fault.
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post #728 of 4276 Old 04-01-2010, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swexican View Post

Here is their explanation to that:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/hardw...l#post11779894

Hmmm, that seems like good reasoning. I'll go along with that, though I still think it would be appropriate to have a statement in the review similar to what is in that post.

Quote:


I find it hard to believe that the UK and US models would differ in something as fundamental as that though, especially when they claim it's a feature and not a fault.

There's already endless speculation about this, so I'll refrain from duplicating it here, other than to say that it's possible. If the severe cases are a fault, they could be limited specific production runs.

I'm still disappointed I couldn't go for the G10. They don't cost much more than the 720p LCD I ended up with...
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post #729 of 4276 Old 04-01-2010, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

Hmmm, that seems like good reasoning. I'll go along with that, though I still think it would be appropriate to have a statement in the review similar to what is in that post.



There's already endless speculation about this, so I'll refrain from duplicating it here, other than to say that it's possible. If the severe cases are a fault, they could be limited specific production runs.

I'm still disappointed I couldn't go for the G10. They don't cost much more than the 720p LCD I ended up with...

why didn't you go for the G10?
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post #730 of 4276 Old 04-01-2010, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

why didn't you go for the G10?

I considered MANY factors, but the ones that tipped the balance were:

- The worst cases of MLL rise have been on the smaller models, and I would have been getting the smallest (42")
- I could only get it mail-order, so I wouldn't really be able to return it if it didn't work out for some reason.
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post #731 of 4276 Old 04-01-2010, 09:28 PM
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For shits and giggles, tested my laptop vs my PC Monitor today. Through VGA out on the laptop.

The results are the two are basically exactly even as you see in the pics.

http://img242.imageshack.us/i/dscf0386j.jpg/
http://img638.imageshack.us/i/dscf0385x.jpg/
http://img26.imageshack.us/i/dscf0384i.jpg/

The laptop runs at 1280X768, whereas the monitor is upscaling that to 1680X1050 in clone mode, so I'd guess that means in an even fight the PC monitor should be faster.

One caveat is the laptop only runs SMTT at around 400 FPS. I'm guessing this only introduces a ~2.5ms possible error though, so I'm not that worried about it.

Now I'm going to run tests on previously tested sets with the laptop. If the results come out similar to the tests I did comparing them to the desktop PC, it will make for much easier testing as I'll just do it with the portable laptop from now on which will be much more convenient. For those sets with VGA in I suppose anyway.

Actually come to think of it there's so many resolution variables here there's probably going to be no way to do apples to apples tests laptop/PC anyway. Shame.

The laptop is a Dell Inspiron 1545 btw. Picked it up for 399 at Best Buy a while back.
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post #732 of 4276 Old 04-01-2010, 10:01 PM
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Someone in the owners thread of the new Samsung LED-LCD's posted pics of the C8000 tested against a laptop. It didnt do too bad it looks like it was around 30ms.
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post #733 of 4276 Old 04-01-2010, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony6225 View Post

Someone in the owners thread of the new Samsung LED-LCD's posted pics of the C8000 tested against a laptop. It didnt do too bad it looks like it was around 30ms.

just checked it out, i need more info and some better tests from him to get clearer figures but from my judgment of his shots i would say it showed 40ms in the first photo and 60ms in the 2nd photo.

i suspect his main problem was his camera shutter speed causing the blurry shots.

lastly you need to keep in mind that the laptop is an LCD panel and very likely has about 10ms of input lag itself between input lag and pixel blurring so that would bring the minimum lag figure up to 50ms and into the not good for serious gaming area but yes it does appear to be an improvement over most B series Samsung TV's but still a far cry from an IPS LCD or a Sharp in game mode

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #734 of 4276 Old 04-01-2010, 10:46 PM
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Frito your sure all Sharp's are good in game mode?

Sears here brick and mortar had a sharp 40" on sale for 699 a while back, which is about my price and size range. I dont remember the model but I assume it wasn't the newest thing. I'm seriously considering just grabbing it and if it looks ok picture wise forgetting all this stuff, not even testing it for fear I'll find something bad .

The alternative seems to be constantly testing and returning sets as they all seem to be deficient.
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post #735 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky974 View Post

Frito your sure all Sharp's are good in game mode?

Sears here brick and mortar had a sharp 40" on sale for 699 a while back, which is about my price and size range. I dont remember the model but I assume it wasn't the newest thing. I'm seriously considering just grabbing it and if it looks ok picture wise forgetting all this stuff, not even testing it for fear I'll find something bad .

The alternative seems to be constantly testing and returning sets as they all seem to be deficient.

i've yet to see one tested that did not perform good in game mode, out of game mode they are laggy however

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #736 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 08:58 AM
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Can you guys recommend a TV with extremely low input that doesn't run the chance of having its black levels increased?

I play a lot of first person shooters and unfortunately, I am very sensitive to it.

Preferably < $1000.00

and

between 32 and 40 inches.

Thanks
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post #737 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 09:19 AM
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You don't mention a size or budget, but the Sharp LE700UN series fit that bill.
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post #738 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by sethk View Post

You don't mention a size or budget, but the Sharp LE700UN series fit that bill.

Sorry - fixed
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post #739 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

plus there is another variable that is completely possible with samsungs

look at this result they got with a B750
Samsung LE40B750 110 ms 50 ms
vs
Samsung LE46B750 110 ms 30 ms

the panel lottery could be to blame for the higher and lower results

If I remember correctly from my service manual, the 40 is an 8 bit panel and the 46/52 is a 10 bit panel. This indicates to me that the 40 is a different panel than what is in the 46/52 and could explain the lag difference.
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post #740 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky974 View Post

Frito your sure all Sharp's are good in game mode?

Sears here brick and mortar had a sharp 40" on sale for 699 a while back, which is about my price and size range. I dont remember the model but I assume it wasn't the newest thing. I'm seriously considering just grabbing it and if it looks ok picture wise forgetting all this stuff, not even testing it for fear I'll find something bad .

The alternative seems to be constantly testing and returning sets as they all seem to be deficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

i've yet to see one tested that did not perform good in game mode, out of game mode they are laggy however

We have a 42D64U at work (a 2007 model, I think.) Do you think it's worth doing some tests on it?

We played Rock Band on it one time (during an employee going-away lunch), and "I couldn't feel any lag" at the time...

A 40" Sharp was one of the last things I considered, but I ruled that one out, too, because I wasn't *sure* about the lag, and I could only get it mail order. I didn't care much for the orange highlight on the frame, either.
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post #741 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 11:05 AM
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I'm looking for good gaming tv with low input lag (espesially for rock band and guitar hero) maybe it will be panasonic 37s1(s10 in europe) but i have a question about this and other tv black levels. Does the lack of deep blacks gonna be visible in games as much as in movies(for example bluray) and that grey or blue mist in games will show up as well?
I hope you know what i mean
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post #742 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niachniach View Post

I'm looking for good gaming tv with low input lag (espesially for rock band and guitar hero) maybe it will be panasonic 37s1(s10 in europe) but i have a question about this and other tv black levels. Does the lack of deep blacks gonna be visible in games as much as in movies(for example bluray) and that grey or blue mist in games will show up as well?
I hope you know what i mean

It really depends on the game. Many games including rhythm games like Guitar Hero use high contrast and bright colors, so you're not likely to notice the grayish blacks. (I notice it occasionally in Rock Band in large areas of the crowd in darker venues, but it's certainly not a big problem.)

If, on the other hand, if you're talking about first-person shooters, then yes, you may have a problem. Some of them have scenes that are very dark, so details may be hard to pick out. Usually there is a setting in the game that will let you overcome this, even if it makes the whole image brighter than it's really supposed to be.

Given the low lag and reduced blur (compared to other 60Hz LCDs) of IPS, I'm willing to live with the not-so-black blacks.
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post #743 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 04:00 PM
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Sort of OT here, but I read somewhere the new iPad uses a S-IPS screen. Just interesting. I'm sure Apple wanted the higher quality screen. Maybe for e-books and such.

Went to Sears and the Sharp I was looking at was gone . Must have been a clearance. They now have no Sharp models that I saw.

It's all Samsung and LG now. And a few Sony. The Koreans are taking over. How are LG's? Middling to poor I assume...

Looking at Best Buy website they carry no Sharp's either except a $4,000 model. Didn't see any Sharp's at Wal Mart either. Looks like if I get a Sharp it has to be mail order. One of the small non-chain shops around here may have some but I assume it would cost an arm and a leg. Shame there's no Circuit City any more either, it's practically just BB and WM now.
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post #744 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky974 View Post

Sort of OT here, but I read somewhere the new iPad uses a S-IPS screen. Just interesting. I'm sure Apple wanted the higher quality screen. Maybe for e-books and such.

Went to Sears and the Sharp I was looking at was gone . Must have been a clearance. They now have no Sharp models that I saw.

It's all Samsung and LG now. And a few Sony. The Koreans are taking over. How are LG's? Middling to poor I assume...

Looking at Best Buy website they carry no Sharp's either except a $4,000 model. Didn't see any Sharp's at Wal Mart either. Looks like if I get a Sharp it has to be mail order. One of the small non-chain shops around here may have some but I assume it would cost an arm and a leg. Shame there's no Circuit City any more either, it's practically just BB and WM now.

Apple uses IPS panels in almost every single PC/device display they make because they are superior to everything else for computing and graphics

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #745 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky974 View Post

Sort of OT here, but I read somewhere the new iPad uses a S-IPS screen. Just interesting. I'm sure Apple wanted the higher quality screen. Maybe for e-books and such.

One of the early iPad announcements made a big deal out of the wider viewing angles of IPS. It didn't day anything about input lag, though.

Quote:


Shame there's no Circuit City any more either, it's practically just BB and WM now.

I never would have believed it, but I kind of feel the same way. I hated CC for a number of reasons, but competition and choice are good things.
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post #746 of 4276 Old 04-02-2010, 10:19 PM
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It occured to me that so far my SMTT testing is kind of matching up with the RB2 auto test. Before it started fritzing out anyway.

It usually measured the Olevia at ~40ms. It measured the Westinghouse at, well this is when it started fritzing, but initially at around ~20ms.

SMTT has measured the Olevia at ~20ms, but that's relative to the Westinghouse. So if the Westinghouse is around 20 (maybe around one frame?), that works out.

If this is correct, then the Phillips, which I rebought tonight and will test, should measure around 30-40 relative to the Westinghouse. Because it was measuring 50-60 by RB2.

If that's true, then also the Toshiba should have tested ~60ms by RB, since it tested ~40 by SMTT.

Of course I returned the RB2 guitar, and it started giving wild readings at the end anyway, when it would read at all.

Of course, that's also ignoring any scaling effects. The RB2 test was getting fed each display's native signal or close by the Xbox. Whereas in the SMTT tests sometimes I have to feed them at least slightly non native signals (1680X1050 for 1080P, etc). The Toshiba just put borders around the 1680 pic though, so I assumed it wasn't scaling. I'm guessing the Phillips will scale the image to fullscreen.
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post #747 of 4276 Old 04-03-2010, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethk View Post

You don't mention a size or budget, but the Sharp LE700UN series fit that bill.

I was just looking at the 32 inch AQUOS on Amazon.com and the second reviewer said the input lag was average???

Granted he was using the Guitar Hero 3 calibration tool, but still. This worries me.
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post #748 of 4276 Old 04-03-2010, 01:30 AM
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A bunch of tests of the Phillips FPL3704D/F7 against the Westinghouse LCM-22w3

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3510/dscf0411y.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5813/dscf0410n.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/7859/dscf0409s.jpg
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2449/dscf0408h.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5916/dscf0407v.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3112/dscf0406s.jpg
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7840/dscf0405e.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6208/dscf0404u.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/9130/dscf0403.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6843/dscf0402a.jpg
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/6348/dscf0401z.jpg


Seems to range in the high 30's. I adjusted a few settings throughout these pics, this TV has almost no deep level picture adjust settings at all. It's very newb set I guess you'd say. But anyway, I turned game mode (more like game setting, like personal, sports etc) on after a few pics, and then later changed the display mode from full (upscaled the 1680X1050 feed to 1080P) to dot by dot (letterboxed it) also. Didn't seem to make much difference so I just lumped all the pics together.

Seems to often be ~10ms faster than the Toshiba. That and the Toshiba picture looks 4,000 times worse, and the Philips doesn't have a game mode (though I think as Wondras said the game mode on the Tosh has only something to do with interlacing, since the manual mentioned something about that) so not too bad. I suppose there's a chance if you fed it a 1080P signal it might do even better.

Of course I dont know the lag of the Westinghouse, I'm just assuming the old "low lag TN panel". All I can do is compare sets relative to each other.

Not sure what I'll do now. The set I'd love to keep all else equal is the Phillips. The lag tests weren't great, but they aren't too bad imo either.

My options seem to be dwindling as almost all these big screens fall into the same 30-40 ms range it seems, and the big chains dont carry much besides samsung, lg, sony, toshiba, and low end brands. I could go for the Tosh Frito tested, but the awful picture on mine scared me. Or I could think about mail ordering a Sharp, since they're the true prize it seems. I hate to mail order a TV though...

I think somebody on Shoryuken.com lag thread said something about the newest model year, thinking brand new, Sharps being tested as not that great...so even a Sharp you may have to go for last year's.
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post #749 of 4276 Old 04-03-2010, 03:17 AM
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Tell me what you think about measuring method for input lag on digitalversus.com they say this:

"We put the screen in clone mode as well as our CRT reference (tube screen), a Mitsubishi DiamondTron, in clone mode and time them with an accuracy of 1/1000 of a second. We then photograph them in order to find ten consecutive time differences.
We report the average over the ten delays, as well as the minimum and the maximum. An input lag of 16.7 ms is equivalent to one frame in a game, 33 ms is two frames and so on"

For example LG LH7020 has about 33ms input lag
Is it trustworthy and i can depend on their measuring system?
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post #750 of 4276 Old 04-03-2010, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

Apple uses IPS panels in almost every single PC/device display they make because they are superior to everything else for computing and graphics

Sorry for OT but do you mean that Apple is superior to anything else or that IPS is superior to anything else (xVA, TN)?
If you mean Apple then this statement was ridiculous and that's what I thought when I first read it.
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