Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 07:57 AM
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So if I were to feed audio directly from a PS3 or Fios box to the TV, I can then send an optical cable to my sound bar and the TV will handle audio synch?

Why didn't the Marantz people know about this?
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post #92 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

So if I were to feed audio directly from a PS3 or Fios box to the TV, I can then send an optical cable to my sound bar and the TV will handle audio synch?

Why didn't the Marantz people know about this?

yep most TV's will compensate for the lag, I say most because I owned a crappy insignia TV for a short while and it did not do this it had major input lag and everything was out of sync except TV via its tuner

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #93 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 09:06 AM
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Hey, I posted this in the SONY BRAVIA 2009 Line up Thread, but thought it would be of interest here:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...0081124136.htm

This is from a UK review of the Z4500 (which is supposedly the 52XBR7 here):

"We’re not sure if the theoretically faster LCD panel played a part here, but the input lag we measured on the Sony KDL40Z4500 was typically 15-20ms lower than that on the W4500, even with [Motionflow] engaged. Of course, the playing field would be levelled if [Game/Text Mode] was activated: the input lag on both TVs would drop to a mouthwatering 0-10ms, which – alongside vibrant colours and exceptional detail – paved the way for an utterly immersive gaming experience.

The downside is that [Game/Text Mode] automatically deactivates the 200Hz Motionflow system on Sony KDL40Z4500, but we’ll choose a lag-free gaming response over a slight reduction in motion blur any day, particularly for reflex-dependent multiplayer first-person shooters such as Call Of Duty 5: World At War."


Why don't the US 08 or 09 sets have a game mode that reverts to 60 hz and gives you 0 - 10 ms delay?
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post #94 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clicq View Post

Here's a test of the Panasonic LZ800 from that owner's thread. Seems to be either 16ms or 30ms...

HDMI 1080P, 720P, 480P Progressive: 15ms ~1 frame delay
S-video 480i: 30ms ~2frames delay

Setting won't change number on this panel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbvreeOk7PA (screw the pics, here a video)

The worst part is that I found out that my old CRT TV (JVC 27FA44) actually also lag of 15ms but also fall of too on the same number as the CRT VGA screen.

In the end of the whole story, the TC-32LZ800 is shiny even the turned off which is a good thing. :P


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post #95 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

Hey, I posted this in the SONY BRAVIA 2009 Line up Thread, but thought it would be of interest here:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...0081124136.htm

This is from a UK review of the Z4500 (which is supposedly the 52XBR7 here):

"We're not sure if the theoretically faster LCD panel played a part here, but the input lag we measured on the Sony KDL40Z4500 was typically 15-20ms lower than that on the W4500, even with [Motionflow] engaged. Of course, the playing field would be levelled if [Game/Text Mode] was activated: the input lag on both TVs would drop to a mouthwatering 0-10ms, which - alongside vibrant colours and exceptional detail - paved the way for an utterly immersive gaming experience.

The downside is that [Game/Text Mode] automatically deactivates the 200Hz Motionflow system on Sony KDL40Z4500, but we'll choose a lag-free gaming response over a slight reduction in motion blur any day, particularly for reflex-dependent multiplayer first-person shooters such as Call Of Duty 5: World At War."


Why don't the US 08 or 09 sets have a game mode that reverts to 60 hz and gives you 0 - 10 ms delay?

Actually they do what do you think they mean when they say most of the processing is turned off huh??? Think about it the frame interpolation technology can't be run unless the technology that is doing the '120hz rate' on the TV is on.

When in Game Mode the motionflow or auto motion plus depending on the TV is grayed out and can't be turned on because the process that allowed the TV to be run in '120hz' is turned off.

Now just cause it goes back to like 60hz doesn't mean all of the TVs will be 10ms or less. Check out the 60hz TVs of 08 when their Game Mode is on it is not less than 10ms or if anything you see it pretty close to the 120hz TVs when both are in Game Mode.

Exception is the PC mode with something like the A650,750,850,860 from Samsung which gets to like 10ms of input lag or so but there is more processing that is turned off with PC mode which is noticeable because of the image quality is much lower (level of detail).

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post #96 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 10:14 AM
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It's 120 hz even when motion processing is turned off. I'm just wondering how they are getting such low lag times vs what people in here are getting.
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post #97 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

It's 120 hz even when motion processing is turned off. I'm just wondering how they are getting such low lag times vs what people in here are getting.


I'm not sure I can trust any of the measurements here. I had my tv set in standard mode (all post processing turned off) and when I did the GH calibration test, I got <16 ms or around there. I haven't run it again but I will do it later today. Seems in an actual game, this lag is pretty subjective. When I turn off all the post processing in SF4, I can't distinguish between game mode and non-game mode during play at all. If we are all going to measure delay and make a big deal out of it, then it should be done in a gaming environment since that's where it will really count. Putting up photos of time captures outputted by a PC in clone mode really isn't all that useful IMO. For reference, my tv is a Samsung LN46A850.

Edit: Here's a picture I just took using GH calibration in standard mode with all post processing disabled:


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post #98 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150Joker View Post

I'm not sure I can trust any of the measurements here. I had my tv set in standard mode (all post processing turned off) and when I did the GH calibration test, I got <16 ms or around there. I haven't run it again but I will do it later today. Seems in an actual game, this lag is pretty subjective. When I turn off all the post processing in SF4, I can't distinguish between game mode and non-game mode during play at all. If we are all going to measure delay and make a big deal out of it, then it should be done in a gaming environment since that's where it will really count. Putting up photos of time captures outputted by a PC in clone mode really isn't all that useful IMO. For reference, my tv is a Samsung LN46A850.

Edit: Here's a picture I just took using GH calibration in standard mode with all post processing disabled:


the problem with using GH's latencies adjuster is that it requires a human's input to successfully, and accurately catch a puck within its target ring. This is simply just too much of a imprecise variable.

Photo capture in clone mode is one of the tools an actual professional reviewers use to measure lag.

"If you didn’t already know, almost all LCD monitors have a small delay in display. To measure this, we photograph a chronometer which is precise to 1/1000th of a second displayed in clone mode on our reference CRT and the LCD we are testing. We take 12 consecutive differences, eliminating the two extremes and then find the average delay."


These issues are very real folks. If you can't perceive the lag on your beloved display than consider your insensitivity to latency a blessing. Or a curse - top tier players are all hyper sensitive to latency which is why they would never accept anything above 16ms of latency. It all pertains to how honed in your reflexes and hand to eye coordination is. That said, yes I choose to play with hdtv and their added input lag over a CRT even though I can feel the latency. Why? because It's no longer a priority to be the winnAr at l33t gaming anymore. I'm too old for that sh!t anyways.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.

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post #99 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KVW View Post

the problem with using GH's latencies adjuster is that it requires a human's input to successfully, and accurately catch a puck within its target ring. This is simply just too much of a imprecise variable.


Isn't this precisely what we are measuring in a gaming environment? A real human response to input lag, not a synthetically measured one. I've been gaming for 25 years and was heavily into competition gaming at one point for FPS games so I'm also sensitive to lag.


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post #100 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 12:28 PM
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I have been going through all the different forum posts on the site and been researching about the lag on on some Samsung sets. I am about to purchase a tv in the next couple days and need your help on which one. I am going with either the LN40B550 or LN37B650. I decided to post in here because console gaming(360,PS3) is a top priority for me.

1.)Is the lag on these pretty equal?
2.)Is the 60Hz better for gaming then the 120Hz?
3.)Will AMP ruin the games

Any advice would be greatly appreciated
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post #101 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150Joker View Post

Isn't this precisely what we are measuring in a gaming environment? A real human response to input lag, not a synthetically measured one. I've been gaming for 25 years and was heavily into competition gaming at one point for FPS games so I'm also sensitive to lag.

I say the test looses credibility because of the human factor - you say because of the human factor it's more relevant.

If GH's reported input lag is sufficient enough for you, by all means. However you don't want to be fooling yourself at the same time. If you take two displays that are known to have a large difference in input lag and try GH's input lag text, they should reflect that known difference. However if your button pressing happened to be a little bit off on one of those tests, it can show a laggier panel as faster than the known faster panel and that's where that test looses all credibility.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.

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post #102 of 4263 Old 04-06-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

It's 120 hz even when motion processing is turned off. I'm just wondering how they are getting such low lag times vs what people in here are getting.

When in Game Mode it turns off the processing that enables it to 'refresh 120hz' which motionflow can't work without the 120hz so it is grayed out.

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post #103 of 4263 Old 04-18-2009, 12:41 PM
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Hi guys,

I recently bought a Samsung LE37A557 and, after having upgraded its firmware to the latest version, here's what I've got with GH lag calibration:

"Off" Mode: Sound lag: 0 ms Video lag: 4 ms (incredibly low for an LCD! I thought only Sony could have input lags this low)

"Game" Mode: Sound lag: 0 ms Video lag: 0 ms !!!!

"Cinema" and "Sport" modes had video lags of 22ms and 30ms respectively.

So, there is clearly another variable: TV firmware version.

I know I'm talking about a human-ran input lag test, but it was the same person (me) who ran all the tests.

My PS3 is connected through HDMI and GH is 720p, so the TV had at least to the the upscaling procedure to 1080p, but apparently it did it without losing a single frame!

Do you think that for a PS2, the TV input lag will also be 0ms? PS2 is connected through component (maybe it is analogue and the TV will have to "digitalize" the sign, and (most of the) games are less than 720p so the upscaling procedure may be theoretically more complex... I don't have PS2 GH )
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post #104 of 4263 Old 05-18-2009, 11:35 PM
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So in some cases VGA is actually faster than HDMI?
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post #105 of 4263 Old 05-19-2009, 12:42 AM
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Sharp LC52E77U, E77U series
http://sites.google.com/site/sharpe77ulag/

480i 2 frames
1080p 0 frames

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post #106 of 4263 Old 05-19-2009, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masamunecyrus View Post

Sharp LC52E77U, E77U series
http://sites.google.com/site/sharpe77ulag/

480i 2 frames
1080p 0 frames

Thanks for the test, but that's not a CRT you're using as reference is it? If not, what's the input lag on the reference display? I ask because at least in my testing, switching from using an LCD for reference to a CRT added about 2 frames of lag.

Also... given that your PC only refreshes at 60Hz, what's the point of the 120Hz app? Is it to get around some limitation in flash?
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post #107 of 4263 Old 06-26-2009, 05:42 PM
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I used Rock Band 2 and it's photsensitive guitar for these tests. It is VERY accurate and repeatable. I was able to confirm this by testing it with a CRT first. The best thing is that it is SIMPLE and has virtually ZERO points of failure for stupid people like me.

I've posted these results in a few other threads. Bottom Line: Samsungs SUCK for lag.

I finished up my testing on on these three devices: An old Panasonic 32" CRT, A Samsung A580 52" LCD flat panel and a Sanyo Z3000 projector. Used the Rock Band 2 calibration system.

As expected the CRT has ZERO lag. Rock Band actually measured it as -3ms.. yes NEGATIVE 3ms. Now that's fast! LOL. If you are a competitive twitch gamer... CRT is your only option, I guess. I used SVIDEO and 480i for this test.

The Samsung A580 is a 1080P 60hz non-FI (Frame Interpolation) Best Buy exclusive model I got last year on their Black Friday sale. It's the same as an A530. This got 65ms lag time. ( I'm wondering if Samsung needs to work on their circuitry, because my friends 720P non-FI Samsung Plasma did even worse than this, 77ms lag time! )

Next up was the Sanyo Z3000 1080P 120hz FI-capable projector. I just put this in my home theater which I use for all my gaming, so I was a bit worried about what I'd get for results on this after seeing the bad numbers on the theoretically simpler Samsungs as pointed out above.
Turns out there was no need to worry. Even with the FI (Smooth Motion) turned on high, the lag was only 48ms. With the FI turned off, it improved to 30ms. Very nice.

So, there are some more data points for people to mull over. I will say the 77ms delay on my friends plasma was slightly noticable in Rock Band, I don't know if the 30ms will be that bad.
I found it interesting that a "High-End" 120hz FI projector was faster than a "low-end" non-FI plasma or LCD.
People with Rock Band 2 should start posting more results from their displays.
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post #108 of 4263 Old 09-18-2009, 10:22 PM
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Game Mode 30ms
Non-Game Mode 70ms

is 30 ms pretty much the norm for newer HDTV's?
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post #109 of 4263 Old 09-22-2009, 05:49 AM
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30ms is about what you can reasonably expect from most TVs nowadays, although it's not uncommon to see sets with far worse numbers, especially further down the brand chain (ie insignia/vizio sets typically have pretty lousy numbers).

That being said, 30-50ms, for MOST PEOPLE, it completely acceptable. You're talking about 1/60th of a second increments. Most people don't notice 1-2 frames of lag - when you start getting to 4+, the amount of people who notice increase dramatically - assuming they have a point of comparison to begin with!

The only place where 16ms or less of lag is required is expert-level fighting game play, because lots of moves/combos depend on single frame timing (as crazy as that is).
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post #110 of 4263 Old 10-29-2009, 08:03 PM
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Well, I went to Best Buy and Tested some TVs with ROCK BAND 2 and the auto calibration with the guitar.
The PANASONIC TC-L32X1 720p got numbers like ( 13ms 14ms 11ms 9ms 12ms) And I also played Call of duty 4 on it and i have to say after sooo many tvs i think that panasonic hit the spot as far as input lag is concerned )) i didn't notice lag and my threshold is around 25-40 ms where it bugs me. Oh and i couldn't get the test to work for the LG 32LH30 but it has lip sync audio lag by around 47ms
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post #111 of 4263 Old 10-29-2009, 08:04 PM
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I am assuming that all of the Panasonic tvs in game mode should be like that X1 i tested because they use IPS alpha panels which are generally not as laggy.
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post #112 of 4263 Old 10-30-2009, 02:19 PM
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I am in the process of building a custom Vewlix arcade cabinet.

Actually it will be an exact replica of this one made by Donavan Myers


This unit REQUIRES a 32" display. My connection type will be VGA from the xbox 360. After a ton of research im under the impression that the best option i could possibly go with is sammys a650 set only because im using vga and via VGA pd mode this set tested 0-8 ms or 0-0.5 frames of input lag, but this set is pretty pricey and i was also looking at LG's LH30 since its significantly cheaper (half the price). I really do need some advice on the best possible set i can buy for my custom Vewlix..input lag wise.

ANY help is appreciated
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post #113 of 4263 Old 10-31-2009, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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wow, surprised this thread is still around, I haven't been on these forums in awhile

anyways from what i've seen your best bet is going to be a sammy a650 or a panasonic panel, the panny's all seem to be very fast displays from what people have said and tested elsewhere, this is in part because they are IPS panels witch are inherently better with input lag than PVA panels that samsung/sony use

if you read up on PC monitors you will find that aside from TN panels witch are not good for picture quality and viewing angles so they are not used at all in TV's but are the fastest LCD display

PVA type panels are the slowest and without image processing they pretty much all have input lag by design 8-32+ ms lag

IPS panels are better input lag they typically dont achieve the near zero numbers that TN panels can achieve (0-4ms lag) but are around 8-16ms lag typically

panasonic only uses IPS panels in their LCD TV's and your in luck that your using a 32" display because unless they changed their ways the biggest LCD panny sells is a 37", panasonic's electronics in general are superior to LG and Sharp by most peoples standards so they are in my opinion the best choice for your application most likely, but you could try out LG or Sharp as they also use IPS but LG tends to use both PVA and IPS and it can be hard to figure out what panel an LG tv has in it untill its been tested out for awhile

with sharp and panny its guaranteed to be an IPS panel and in game modes the input lag should be very good, the problem is most people on these forums have a samsung or sony so thats the majority of the results here

let me try to find a thread by a guy i met on these forums back when i started this thread, he was super sensitive to input lag and tested out a ridiculous amount of tv's that he would buy try and return till i finally settled on a LG set, his benchmark was a panasonic 32" panel that was super fast and just wanted to upgrade from a 32" set to a 40" set but had to have nearly input lag free.

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #114 of 4263 Old 10-31-2009, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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heres the thread with his results on the LG tv he bought

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16296850

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #115 of 4263 Old 11-05-2009, 06:09 AM
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^thanks. i would have loved to see him do a lcd vs crt test but that was helpfull.
are there any 32" tn panel displays anyone can recommend?
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post #116 of 4263 Old 11-05-2009, 08:05 AM
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There are also some HDMI receivers that have signal delay adjustment on them.

TC
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post #117 of 4263 Old 11-05-2009, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcman46 View Post

There are also some HDMI receivers that have signal delay adjustment on them.

TC

that delay is for sound to delay audio to match the video delay on your TV

AFAIK nobody makes 32" TN panels

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #118 of 4263 Old 11-05-2009, 08:09 AM
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^arg! thought so.

i wish i could find a sammy 32a650 for a decent price. vga set on native resolution 2-10 ms input lag is superb
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post #119 of 4263 Old 11-26-2009, 05:04 PM
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wow i love this topic, i've been looking for the perfect LCD monitor or HDTV for gaming and movies and finally found this topic here in AVS to get some info, since most people here dont talk about the performance of LCD Displays when it comes to gaming and input lag, we gamers also want the perfect picture, huge screen,and still be able to play whatever game we want.

thanks for the info guys just in time for blackfriday might get me and LCD TV at least 40" or up
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post #120 of 4263 Old 11-26-2009, 06:31 PM
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wonder if they can test input lag on the UN55B8500 love the picture quality in this set
Azt3c33 is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

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Lcd Hdtv , Displays , Plasma Hdtv , Sony Bravia Kdl 55ex500 Series 55 Inch Lcd Tv Black
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