Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 4253 Old 06-11-2010, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by nanothis View Post

is it possible to quickly estimate input lag by going to Best Buy, looking at all the screens that are on the same signal, and finding the one that changes frames the fastest?

Would there be any reason that this wouldnt work?

That would have absolutely no sense at all. Input lag is the delay between you pressing a button and the action being performed on screen. The picture switching faster at best buy has nothing to do with this.
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post #1172 of 4253 Old 06-11-2010, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by nanothis View Post

is it possible to quickly estimate input lag by going to Best Buy, looking at all the screens that are on the same signal, and finding the one that changes frames the fastest?

yes, but as frito said, there's no way to test how they'll perform in whatever game or pc mode settings the tvs have
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post #1173 of 4253 Old 06-12-2010, 02:49 AM
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I need to say 1 thing. The INPUT LAG war, is little overreacted. from alot of test my c650 should have 43ms in PC mode and 93 in others. OK ! 93ms lag is noticible via mouse by me on pc, but not for 3 other person (mayby its in my mind), but 43ms is not noticible by anyone in my home. So input lag is ONLY critical for people that want to have "psychical comfort" so they can't say "you killed me cuz of my input lag"

I will try check input lag on my c650 but i need to get application for that
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post #1174 of 4253 Old 06-12-2010, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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feeling it was never my problem but when i had a 45ms lag TV i could not effectively play games online because i would have to lead targets by a very very unusually high amount esp when flying planes in BF1942.

i'll lay out the BF42 scenario i noticed big time because its the best example in to me, i used to play this game competitively as a pilot back in its hay day and i was one of the best pilots in the game.

to be a good plane pilot in it there are two things that input lag effects greatly and 3 frames of lag is just too much to work with.

#1 is timing of dropping bombs on a tank, if you get good at timing this and you can drop the bomb on the rear of the enemy tank it will blow up in one hit, if it hits anywhere else it will just take damage. i used to be an expert at doing this and with my 32XBR6 (3 frames of lag) i could never get it to happen ever because my visual timing was so thrown off by the TV.

#2 this is the big one, one that could not be corrected by adjusting for it over time mentally. when dog fighting the fastest and best way to take down an enemy plane when your on their tail is to predict when they are about to bank left or right and get you cross hairs in front of them by the right amount so you guns hit their engine and they go down super quick, any other way like shooting the tail section just takes too long to down them and gives them a chance to get away. on my 32XBR6 i could never lead them far enough to hit the engine plus i was banking to late many times because 3 frames had passed in real time before i seen them start to bank. this is very important to being a successful pilot in this game.

so when i was going through this trouble i was getting like 2-4 kills in a round on a server i thought to myself hey maybe its the input lag that is causing me to suck so bad. so i put my 22" PC monitor in front of my TV on my desk, jumped into the very same server i was in and sucked in moments before and guess what i finished that round in 2nd place with nearly 20 kills!

with my Panasonic 37S1 i also have no problems racking up kills and actually play a bit better because of the larger display.

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1175 of 4253 Old 06-12-2010, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapsa View Post

I need to say 1 thing. The INPUT LAG war, is little overreacted. from alot of test my c650 should have 43ms in PC mode and 93 in others. OK ! 93ms lag is noticible via mouse by me on pc, but not for 3 other person (mayby its in my mind), but 43ms is not noticible by anyone in my home. So input lag is ONLY critical for people that want to have "psychical comfort" so they can't say "you killed me cuz of my input lag"

I will try check input lag on my c650 but i need to get application for that

Picking out lag blindly with no point of reference is very difficult. You should set those "other 3 people" up with the TV on standard mode and switch it to PC mode in real time WHILE they're moving around the mouse (and back again). I guarantee you they will notice the difference and likely describe it as tremendous--night and day. Similarly, if you set your TV up in PC mode and did a direct A/B comparison with a different displays that has 16ms of lag, there's a very good chance anyone could point out the difference.
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post #1176 of 4253 Old 06-12-2010, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Picking out lag blindly with no point of reference is very difficult. You should set those "other 3 people" up with the TV on standard mode and switch it to PC mode in real time WHILE they're moving around the mouse (and back again). I guarantee you they will notice the difference and likely describe it as tremendous--night and day. Similarly, if you set your TV up in PC mode and did a direct A/B comparison with a different displays that has 16ms of lag, there's a very good chance anyone could point out the difference.

definitely.

when i had my laggy sony TV i always have a 2nd monitor next to my TV on my desk and one of the easiest ways to visually see the input lag of a TV with 3 frames of lag is to take a window in windows and move it back and forth between the two displays you can see the difference in response right away

with my 37S1 that does have slightly more lag than my 22" viewsonic its impossible to see it and they both feel the same to me

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1177 of 4253 Old 06-12-2010, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapsa View Post

I need to say 1 thing. The INPUT LAG war, is little overreacted. from alot of test my c650 should have 43ms in PC mode and 93 in others. OK ! 93ms lag is noticible via mouse by me on pc, but not for 3 other person (mayby its in my mind), but 43ms is not noticible by anyone in my home. So input lag is ONLY critical for people that want to have "psychical comfort" so they can't say "you killed me cuz of my input lag"

I will try check input lag on my c650 but i need to get application for that

You obviously didn't grow up playing competitive Quake or anything like that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z39X-5RuOVo 45ms of lag is huge in FPS. Make no mistake, all things being equal, if you went from 45ms to a 0ms lag panel (like a crt) your game would improve by alot without a doubt. But hey, whatever you need to do to rationalize it so you're more accepting of your LCD is fine by me/us.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.

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post #1178 of 4253 Old 06-12-2010, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

I'm so glad I bought my TV when quality matter and thin wasn't IN yet. Happy owner of a Samsung LN46A650 a time where everyone knew what they were getting when it came to certain TVs like for example mine all 40" a650 or higher TVs were of high quality same panel. When it came to input lag HDMI2-PC mode or VGA was super fast compare to any other 120hz TVs of the time and in general high quality TVs. Finally calibrated my TV and in both modes PC mode and regular mode after professional calibration the TV looks stunning. Barely can tell the difference between the two modes and it looks great. Before calibration only regular mode looked like great but PC mode not so good and admit it.

Now it is good and I would suggest people if they hate the TV trend of today to just search high and low for older TVs and get a warranty and calibrate it and be done with it. Of course uneducated igorant people see I have a Samsung and say horrible for gaming but only if they knew the A650-A860 40-52" models were special thanks to the PC mode or VGA and brought super fast low input lag and this is was a 120hz TV.

PC mode on this TV doesn't do what the Toshiba xv645u does in game mode. Color accuracy is not impaired and it doesnt show pixel smearing in dark images while moving over an even darker background like some games out there like FEAR game and didnt see it over the test to see if it did.

So good luck people in hunting down a good one only real regret I have was not buying the biggest size I can for this model at the time which would of been a 52".

EDIT= I will take my words back and say PC mode looks awesome after I got my TV calibrated and calibrated in PC mode as much as one can do with the limited settings and compare to the regular mode and PC mode it looks almost identical except for PC mode looking slightly softer just slightly but this works for gaming since some games have bad jaggies and it kinda of like a cheap anti-aliasing. I was too use to over sharp images but a calibrated image is not meant to be and finally see it. Get your TVs calibrated when you guys do find a good gaming TV later.

Btw my mom bought a 50" Samsung B550 plasma looks great after calibration (blacks were much better than my TV of course) so anyone need a better input lag test for this TV let me know I'll do it.

On the A650's the lag decrease of PC Mode only applies to native 1080p sources. If anything other than 1080p is being fed to the set, it will auto revert to Game Mode or whatever Entertainment mode it was previously on. Not a big deal for the 360 with it's internal scaler but since the PS3 doesn't have one, any game that's 720p native (the majority ARE 720p native) won't actually be running in PC Mode.
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post #1179 of 4253 Old 06-13-2010, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

On the A650's the lag decrease of PC Mode only applies to native 1080p sources. If anything other than 1080p is being fed to the set, it will auto revert to Game Mode or whatever Entertainment mode it was previously on. Not a big deal for the 360 with it's internal scaler but since the PS3 doesn't have one, any game that's 720p native (the majority ARE 720p native) won't actually be running in PC Mode.

Yea I know I have both the PS3 and 360 so I am aware of it. Even worse are the PS3 games that you have to force to playback 1080p (by disabling 720p and 1080i as display options) which were never meant to really run 1080p and end up looking like and/or run like crap. With all display options on the game will pick the best resolution it plays in and for those that do it in 720p there's a dilemma.

Regardless PS3 gaming wise is second to the 360 IMO online wise especially. PS3 is used for Blu-ray/DVD playback and those rare times for exclusive PS3 only games that are must have plays.

Besides all of this can be resolved with a good HDMI 1080p upscaling receiver that upscales anything to 1080p regardless of input so input lag wise it will be ok.

*EDIT* Also its just not 1080p only there are other resolutions that work in PC mode but the common 480p and 720p of console resolution ain't one of them.

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post #1180 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 06:49 PM
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Just bought a Sony Bravia KDL-40EX400. Input lag tests against a computer LCD showed surprisingly little difference so I hauled out a CRT to test with. 17ms difference in Cinema mode between HDTV and the CRT. Unfortunately, most of my pics got nailed by the reflection. If there's something specific you want me to test, just ask and I'll go for it:-)
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post #1181 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

Just bought a Sony Bravia KDL-40EX400. Input lag tests against a computer LCD showed surprisingly little difference so I hauled out a CRT to test with. 17ms difference in Cinema mode between HDTV and the CRT. Unfortunately, most of my pics got nailed by the reflection. If there's something specific you want me to test, just ask and I'll go for it:-)

interesting, seems incredibly low for a sony but then again nobody has tested the EX400 yet, its a 60hz TV isn't it?

what resolution were you running on the PC and if you want to do it PM me your e-mail and i will send you SMTT so you can retest it with that program its much more accurate but you will need to be running either winXP 32bit or vista/win7 64bit as those are the only two version i have copies of

another thing you will need to do if you test it with SMTT is make sure that the full height of either the left or right edges of the screen on both displays is visible as this is critical to figuring out the lag of the display

here is a good example of one of my tests



you can also enlarge the text if necessary to get clear readings but it is recommended that you leave it as small as possible to keep it accurate

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1182 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 08:49 PM
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Yes, it's 60 HZ. I saw several posters mention a lack of input lag on various sites, which is (along with the price I got it for) why I purchased it. I'm running win7 64 bit. I was running a low res on both in order to clone (1280x1024 or similar). However, I was running a higher res when I cloned with the LCD.'

Have I mentioned that gaming with this thing at this distance is basically a theater experience?

:-)
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post #1183 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

Yes, it's 60 HZ. I saw several posters mention a lack of input lag on various sites, which is (along with the price I got it for) why I purchased it. I'm running win7 64 bit. I was running a low res on both in order to clone (1280x1024 or similar). However, I was running a higher res when I cloned with the LCD.'

Have I mentioned that gaming with this thing at this distance is basically a theater experience?

:-)

yeah running native to the TV's resolution is best but if anything it adds lag to the TV not the CRT (obviously) if you do not run native.

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1184 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by frito View Post

yeah running native to the TV's resolution is best but if anything it adds lag to the TV not the CRT (obviously) if you do not run native.

unfortunately the CRT is a bit old and doesn't like high resolutions. of course, I run native when not testing. I'd be worried the CRT is just bad, but the results were great compared to the desktop LCD too. I can also test against my laptop.
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post #1185 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

unfortunately the CRT is a bit old and doesn't like high resolutions. of course, I run native when gaming.

yeah, what model is your LCD monitor? if it can do the native res of your TV by all means test it both ways with SMTT and post up your results.

also make sure you use a 1/60 shutter setting if possible on your camera when using the CRT and when using the LCD monitor you can raise the shutter speed higher if you wish

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1186 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by frito View Post

yeah, what model is your LCD monitor? if it can do the native res of your TV by all means test it both ways with SMTT and post up your results.

also make sure you use a 1/60 shutter setting if possible on your camera when using the CRT and when using the LCD monitor you can raise the shutter speed higher if you wish

LCD is a Soyo dylm24e6, which is the TN version - it's my dad's, using it temporarily while he's gone. Unfortunately, my dylm24d6 (PMVA, utterly incredible screen quality - beats the crap out of any TV I'll have the money to buy for a long time -) broke. Going to replace the capacitors and such and hope I can fix it :-)

Will see if I can figure out the 1/60th shutter. Is it important?

I had an issue getting a clear shot of the numbers. The pictures usually don't turn out well, especially since the screen positioning's funky.
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post #1187 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

LCD is a Soyo dylm24e6, which is the TN version - it's my dad's, using it temporarily while he's gone. Unfortunately, my dylm24d6 (PMVA, utterly incredible screen quality - beats the crap out of any TV I'll have the money to buy for a long time -) broke. Going to replace the capacitors and such and hope I can fix it :-)

Will see if I can figure out the 1/60th shutter. Is it important?

TN monitors are great, they normally have very low lag

Shutter speed matters quite a bit actually, if its too low then the numbers will blend into each other due to the shutter staying open too long causing bad results.

1/60 is what you want to use with a CRT because its refreshing the screen at 60hz and if you go faster than this you will not get see the whole screen but just the newest scan line, judging by your first photos your camera recognized the CRT refresh and automatically adjusted the shutter speed to match as most do when on auto and that is fine.

if you cannot manually adjust it then taking photo's with 2 LCD's is pretty much pointless because it will appear mostly static to the camera and it will choose a low shutter speed like 1/24 etc. tampering with the results as the result

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1188 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 09:18 PM
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Eh, the D6 was just fine for me lagwise and the picture was better.

Frito, I'm getting a "not compatible with this version of Windows" error. Are you sure that's the win7 64 bit?

You're right; 1/60 shutter speed works much better. Here's two with the LCDs cloned @ 1080. Cinema mode on the HDTV. Connection is HDMI to DVI.

Edit: My bad, didn't unrar it first...
Edit #2

Added pic 5. Showing about 40 ms or so with this tool =/

That's in Cinema. Can't test in Game because the CRT just wigs out when I start the tool (it seems the tool switches it to 85 hz, which it doesn't like). Not sure why it worked this once..
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post #1189 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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maybe not your probably reading it incorrectly, can you post a higher resolution image if not then e-mail it to me and i will post it via my photobucket for you

reason being is i cannot read the numbers clearly on your CRT

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1190 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

maybe not your probably reading it incorrectly, can you post a higher resolution image if not then e-mail it to me and i will post it via my photobucket for you

reason being is i cannot read the numbers clearly on your CRT

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/9638/dsc04504.jpg
http://img813.imageshack.us/i/dsc04505.jpg/
here, try these. of the 4 pics 3 show ~40ms.

the test seemed kind of funky, though - the HDTV took a bit to click on / resize. Wish I could get it to repeat.
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post #1191 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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yeah i'm coming up with 34ms of input lag, that sounds about right for a Sony TV.

i read 222 as the highest on the CRT and 188 as the highest number on the TV

try to get game mode working, it could drive it lower but i doubt it will bring it down much more than that, still a decent performer compared to many TV's sold today

another thing to check if possible is swap video output ports on your PC and retest to check if your video card is adding any delay to one port, most don't but there have been some in the past that did.

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1192 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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oh and another thing if you can raise you shutter speed do so slightly, it appears to be too slow at its current setting because i can see the CRT overscanning the lines, optimally you want to see a faint black line where the phosphors are decaying to insure both the CRT and LCD's figures are not getting overexposed and they appear to be esp in that 2nd picture

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1193 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

yeah i'm coming up with 34ms of input lag, that sounds about right for a Sony TV.

i read 222 as the highest on the CRT and 188 as the highest number on the TV

try to get game mode working, it could drive it lower but i doubt it will bring it down much more than that, still a decent performer compared to many TV's sold today

another thing to check if possible is swap video output ports on your PC and retest to check if your video card is adding any delay to one port, most don't but there have been some in the past that did.

got the CRT to do the test without barfing.. switched the res lower (800x600 clone). You're right, it's around 30 some ms.

http://img34.imageshack.us/i/dsc04510kw.jpg/
http://img529.imageshack.us/i/dsc04511.jpg/
http://img257.imageshack.us/i/dsc04512y.jpg/
4511 is really nice - just over 20ms lag
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post #1194 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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yeah your shutter or the refresh rate is set completely wrong you see how you now have an even larger brighter line on these photo's of the CRT? that is the scan line hitting those phosphors twice during the exposure, when this happens results get skewed and become inaccurate

see the black line on my CRT in the photo below? that is how you want your photo's to come out to be accurate.


If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1195 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

yeah your shutter or the refresh rate is set completely wrong you see how you now have an even larger brighter line on these photo's of the CRT? that is the scan line hitting those phosphors twice during the exposure, when this happens results get skewed and become inaccurate

see the black line on my CRT in the photo below? that is how you want your photo's to come out to be accurate.


What do I want it set at? The CRT monitor is running at 85 hz during the tests.
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post #1196 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Malicize View Post

What do I want it set at?

refresh rate should always be 60hz and for the camera start at 1/60, if you still get overlap then raise it up 1 setting until you get a black line, its ok if your black line is larger than the one in my picture, as long as you can read 2-3 sets of numbers.

the way this program works by the way is it uses DirectX to render rather than Flash and it unlocks the V-Sync on both outputs. the timers your seeing are actually in sync!! the reason why the numbers are all different is because both CRT's and LCD's update by refreshing each horizontal line of the screen from top to bottom at a set rate (60hz for your LCD and CRT's are not fixed but you want the CRT to be set at what your TV's native refresh is)

what this means is the highest number is the newest scan line roughly, its much harder to see this on LCD's due to pixel level lag. CRT's are vastly superior in actual pixel level response time and decay time compared to LCD's and some LCD's are faster than others, if you look at my photo above you can see that my LCD's combine input and pixel level lag is 20ms. if you look closely below 339 on my Panasonic in the picture you can see the TV's update line is actually all the way at the bottom of the screen and light ghost images of 341-347, if i take that into account my input lag is even lower but due to pixel lag (8ms) the real lag of my TV is 20ms rather than 12ms

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1197 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

refresh rate should always be 60hz and for the camera start at 1/60, if you still get overlap then raise it up 1 setting until you get a black line, its ok if your black line is larger than the one in my picture, as long as you can read 2-3 sets of numbers.

the way this program works by the way is it uses DirectX to render rather than Flash and it unlocks the V-Sync on both outputs. the timers your seeing are actually in sync!! the reason why the numbers are all different is because both CRT's and LCD's update by refreshing each horizontal line of the screen from top to bottom at a set rate (60hz for your LCD and CRT's are not fixed but you want the CRT to be set at what your TV's native refresh is)

what this means is the highest number is the newest scan line roughly, its much harder to see this on LCD's due to pixel level lag. CRT's are vastly superior in actual pixel level response time and decay time compared to LCD's and some LCD's are faster than others, if you look at my photo above you can see that my LCD's combine input and pixel level lag is 20ms. if you look closely below 339 on my Panasonic in the picture you can see the TV's update line is actually all the way at the bottom of the screen and light ghost images of 341-347, if i take that into account my input lag is even lower but due to pixel lag (8ms) the real lag of my TV is 20ms rather than 12ms

When you say raise, do you mean 1/40 direction or 1/80?

Ahwell, I need to hit the sack. Mine's not quite as good as yours but it seems pretty decent. Thanks for the help! Thanks also for the thread. Trying to find a decent LCD is a bit freaky.. when you find one available in your area (shipping to Alaska is bones), it's hard to find any information about the specific model number you're looking at. It was either this or an Aquos for half a grand; I ended up going with this because I couldn't find any reviews for the Aquos model anywhere.
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post #1198 of 4253 Old 06-14-2010, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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1/80 would be higher

the number denotes how long the camera leaves the shutter open 1/60 is 1/60th of a second, a CRT monitor at 60hz will scan the screen 60 times per second so at 1/60th you should catch 1 full frame only but your photo's esp the 2nd round appear to be catching more than 1 frame because you can see the brightness of the lines that have been scanned twice while the camera shutter was open

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on
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post #1199 of 4253 Old 06-15-2010, 09:50 AM
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Hi, Has anyone ever looked the LG LE5500 TV in terms of input lag ?
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post #1200 of 4253 Old 06-16-2010, 04:37 PM
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Anyone have any lag input info for the Toshiba 46XV645U?
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