Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-21-2010, 09:27 AM
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Well, after a long day of shopping yesterday, I came home with an LG 42LH30. I looked and tested a lot of panels. I don't know if you guys have an HHGregg in your area, but the sales guy there were great! I went in with a list of 4 sets that I wanted to see, told them what the primary use was going to be, and those guys pulled those sets off the floor, hooked up their demo PS3's they had, and we actually gamed it up for about 45 minutes.

We played the GOW3 E3 demo, unreal tournament 3, and guitar hero world tour. Out of the 4 sets we had set up, the LG and the Panny were the ones that I could did not visually notice any lag. The Samsung LED the one guy insisted we put up there was the worst, and very noticeable. Unreal 3 was almost unplayable, even against the AI bots, so online game play would be a nightmare. The Toshiba, I don't remember the model number, but it was "240hz" model, wasn't bad in game mode. You would notice a little lag in game, but I think compounded with net connection lag, it would have made things very difficult.

They obviously didn't have the 42" Panny LCD that was on top of my list, since it's a BB exclusive. I actually went to BB and looked at this TV for a good hour, and played with the limited setting options it had. Even with a direct connected Blu Ray, the picture was no where close to even the Insignia's it was set up next to. It just was not worth the price tag to me, and being there almost an hour with a big wad of money in my pocket, not one sales guy stopped and asked me if I needed help with anything. I really do not like that store.

I haven't got the TV set up yet, just unboxed and tested to make sure everything was working. Waiting on my stand to be delivered today so I can get it put together and everything set up so I can get my game on! Even if there is a little bit of lag on this set, I don't think it will be anything I can't overcome by adjusting my play a little bit. I usually have a really good net connection and can connect at under 50ms.

I'll post back more results later if anyone is interested!
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Old 02-21-2010, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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yeah but did you test the LH30 that you bought?

LH30's can be very fast or laggy depending on what panel you happen to get in them and floor models will often be the fast ones because when the model first came out last year they were all IPS panels and very fast

i'm pretty sure you can see the label on the panel inside the TV if you look through one of the vents in the back of the TV. its been discussed in the LH30 owners thread

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 02-21-2010, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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heres the post showing where to look

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post18117358

also put up a black screen on your TV (like an input not connected)

tap on the screen with you finger and if you get large halo of light around where you tapped then its not an LG Display IPS panel and you got an AUO or CMO VA panel and its going to be laggy

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:56 AM
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I think I got an AUO panel? From what I can make out in the back panel with a flash light, it says AU optronics, made in China? The stick on the back says manufactured on Dec. 09. Can't do the tap test right now, don't have it plugged in at the moment. Still waiting on my stand to get here.

Either way, I'll try it out and give it a shot!
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Old 02-21-2010, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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yep its an AUO panel

AUO is short for AU Optronics

its not going to perform like the model they had in the store, hopefully its still fast enough for you though everyone is different

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 02-21-2010, 12:39 PM
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well i ordered the vizio SV472xvt via taking the chance. anyways it's a temp tv until the end of the year hopefully i can get a led 3D set for a decent price by then. Since GT5 is a 3D compatible game.

i don't play fps "but MAG feels tempting". i hope the lag test is not that bad. waiting for the results .
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Old 02-21-2010, 01:07 PM
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Using Rock Band 2's calibrator, I consistently got 0ms or even in the minuses in ISF/Expert mode. I did consistently get audio lag though.

My A650 Samsung got ~50-60ms with game mode off, or 25-35ms with game mode on. I did have my PS3 going through my AVR to my A650 though (temporarily have my PS3 directly connected to my AVR) will have to see if my AVR causes any lag.
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Old 02-21-2010, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Using Rock Band 2's calibrator, I consistently got 0ms or even in the minuses in ISF/Expert mode. I did consistently get audio lag though.

My A650 Samsung got ~50-60ms with game mode off, or 25-35ms with game mode on. I did have my PS3 going through my AVR to my A650 though (temporarily have my PS3 directly connected to my AVR) will have to see if my AVR causes any lag.

What display? And is this the autocalibration or the manual calibration?
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Old 02-21-2010, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwami View Post

well i ordered the vizio SV472xvt via taking the chance. anyways it's a temp tv until the end of the year hopefully i can get a led 3D set for a decent price by then. Since GT5 is a 3D compatible game.

i don't play fps "but MAG feels tempting". i hope the lag test is not that bad. waiting for the results .

I don't think you'll be disappointed. For an LCD I really like mine (prefer plasma). It's local dimming LED LCD so the blacks are pretty good if you play with it. Even "out of the box" (mine was a display model) it looked pretty good. It just torched me so I had to turn the brightness way down.

Make sure you don't turn the backlight down too far because things will start to appear foggy or muddy even with high brightness and contrast. At least it did on mine.

And as I've posted I tested it with Rockband 2 autocalibration and it was always between 16 - 19 ms which is very good for a television.

Doing a CRT stopwatch Test this evening.
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Old 02-21-2010, 04:51 PM
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I don't think you'll be disappointed. For an LCD I really like mine (prefer plasma). It's local dimming LED LCD so the blacks are pretty good if you play with it. Even "out of the box" (mine was a display model) it looked pretty good. It just torched me so I had to turn the brightness way down.

Make sure you don't turn the backlight down too far because things will start to appear foggy or muddy even with high brightness and contrast. At least it did on mine.

And as I've posted I tested it with Rockband 2 autocalibration and it was always between 16 - 19 ms which is very good for a television.

Doing a CRT stopwatch Test this evening.

Oh I though those number were vga. So sweet then if 19ms is the highest using HDMI @ 1080P Then it is perfect.

I agree with the plasma blacks & deep colors that's why I bought this set. After reading so much about them & comparing them at my local store. I really wanted a 55 but couldn't find one. actually this 47 I had to order it from sam's website.
Thanks for the help guys.
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:55 PM
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Oh I though those number were vga. So sweet then if 19ms is the highest using HDMI @ 1080P Then it is perfect.

I agree with the plasma blacks & deep colors that's why I bought this set. After reading so much about them & comparing them at my local store. I really wanted a 55 but couldn't find one. actually this 47 I had to order it from sam's website.
Thanks for the help guys.

It was using VGA. HDMI was way higher. We haven't done the CRT stopwatch test yet because all the stores were closed as we wanted some equipment to simplify the test.
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Old 02-21-2010, 09:51 PM
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yep its an AUO panel

AUO is short for AU Optronics

its not going to perform like the model they had in the store, hopefully its still fast enough for you though everyone is different

Got it all set up, did the tap test, and definitely AUO panel. Did some quick adjustments, put it in game mode, and hopped online. I noticed some lag in MW2, that's not out of the ordinary though. So I tried a few matches in MAG, didn't notice any lag. The only thing I really notice is it seems that some things are out of focus. Might be my settings, but like I said, I only did a quick adjustment and hopped online.
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Old 02-21-2010, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trent_bob View Post

What display? And is this the autocalibration or the manual calibration?

lol, oops. That would help wouldn't it?

LG 55LH90. This is with the manual calibration. I'll try the auto calibration later tonight or sometime tomorrow.
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Old 02-22-2010, 01:20 AM
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lol, oops. That would help wouldn't it?

LG 55LH90. This is with the manual calibration. I'll try the auto calibration later tonight or sometime tomorrow.

Awesome let us know.
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Old 02-22-2010, 01:51 AM
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First of all, I've always found RB2's auto calibration to give a more delayed number than it actually is. Either that or I'm jumping the gun on the manual calibration and I actually prefer to have some delay. In the past, I've tried the auto calibration and the manual and I've always performed better with my own manual calibration. FWIW, If I remember correctly, the auto calibration compared to my manual calibration on my A650 LCD, the auto calibration usually had a 12-17ms longer delay than my manual calibration.

Anyway, because the auto calibration goes from a predominately black screen to a flashing white screen, there seemed to be a very slight delay with local dimming on that wouldn't actually affect performance playing RB2 so I ended up disabling it for the test. After 3 tests, I got between 41-43ms. With LD on, I got around 56ms.

Again, I don't really trust RB2's manual calibration let alone their auto calibration. Also keep in mind that video games these days have input lag themselves. The counter test is probably the better test to use.
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Old 02-22-2010, 07:51 AM
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Is there a particular setting on the PS3 that forces the PS3 to do the 1080P upscaling instead of the TV? I remember a screen where you can check or uncheck all of the resoutions supported by your TV. If you're using an HDMI connection can you uncheck all but 1080P in order to force the PS3 to do the upscaling?

I would think this would improve. Would it affect game fps performance?
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Viche View Post

Is there a particular setting on the PS3 that forces the PS3 to do the 1080P upscaling instead of the TV? I remember a screen where you can check or uncheck all of the resoutions supported by your TV. If you're using an HDMI connection can you uncheck all but 1080P in order to force the PS3 to do the upscaling?

I would think this would improve. Would it affect game fps performance?

the PS3 does not scale resolutions for your TV. you can tell it what you TV can and and cannot do but the game will automatically play in its native resolution and most are 720p

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 02-22-2010, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

First of all, I've always found RB2's auto calibration to give a more delayed number than it actually is. Either that or I'm jumping the gun on the manual calibration and I actually prefer to have some delay. In the past, I've tried the auto calibration and the manual and I've always performed better with my own manual calibration. FWIW, If I remember correctly, the auto calibration compared to my manual calibration on my A650 LCD, the auto calibration usually had a 12-17ms longer delay than my manual calibration.

If you are getting manual values of zero (or less!), then you are definitely hitting it early. I do the opposite -- I consistently hit 10-20ms late, based on the numbers I get vs. stopwatch tests.

Other folks' auto calibration results seem to be generally consistent with stopwatch tests, so I'd say auto-cal is at least close. If nothing else, it gives a good relative idea of the differences between models and settings, and is really easy to do.

FWIW, I find that I play better if I set the delay closer to the "real" value instead of my manual value.

Quote:
Anyway, because the auto calibration goes from a predominately black screen to a flashing white screen, there seemed to be a very slight delay with local dimming on that wouldn't actually affect performance playing RB2 so I ended up disabling it for the test. After 3 tests, I got between 41-43ms. With LD on, I got around 56ms.

It's quite possible that local dimming adds to the actual lag; it might need to do this to keep the dimming from happening too late.

Quote:
Again, I don't really trust RB2's manual calibration let alone their auto calibration. Also keep in mind that video games these days have input lag themselves. The counter test is probably the better test to use.

Using an accurate counter, a high-speed camera, a video card with no delay between ports and a CRT for reference is the acid test. This is pretty hard to come by, though. In the absence of this, RB auto-cal is a useful substitute.
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Old 02-22-2010, 01:18 PM
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the PS3 does not scale resolutions for your TV. you can tell it what you TV can and and cannot do but the game will automatically play in its native resolution and most are 720p

What? I've read in several forums that the PS3 will scale depending on what you select in the resolution screen. I need to research more.
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Old 02-22-2010, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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What? I've read in several forums that the PS3 will scale depending on what you select in the resolution screen. I need to research more.

Unless sony changed something on the new slims the old monster ps3's would never upscale game, dvd's it would upscale however

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 02-22-2010, 01:36 PM
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the ps3 will out put at the resolution you select in settings menu so if you sellect 1080P it will always run at 1080p even if the games are native at 720P
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Old 02-22-2010, 02:31 PM
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the ps3 will out put at the resolution you select in settings menu so if you sellect 1080P it will always run at 1080p even if the games are native at 720P

uhm no not exactly some games still result to 720p like killzone 2 where to get 1080p u need to force 1080p by disabling 720p and 1080i and only leaving 1080p on. I noticed games like this that resorts to 720p when both 1080p and 720p is selected is usually because 720p runs better for that specific game.

Problem with that is some games are only 720p and having it disabled will result that game to be 480p only gay i know. Another thing it is not as good as the 360 when upscaling some games like I've mentioned about killzone2 and such games where when your forcing it to run 1080p. Usually it is software upscaling which is not as good as the 360 where it upscales everything thru hardware.

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Old 02-22-2010, 02:36 PM
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the PS3 does not scale resolutions for your TV. you can tell it what you TV can and and cannot do but the game will automatically play in its native resolution and most are 720p

yea u explained it pretty good... the 360 does it the other way...

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:20 PM
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uhm no not exactly some games still result to 720p like killzone 2 where to get 1080p u need to force 1080p by disabling 720p and 1080i and only leaving 1080p on. I noticed games like this that resorts to 720p when both 1080p and 720p is selected is usually because 720p runs better for that specific game.

Problem with that is some games are only 720p and having it disabled will result that game to be 480p only gay i know. Another thing it is not as good as the 360 when upscaling some games like I've mentioned about killzone2 and such games where when your forcing it to run 1080p. Usually it is software upscaling which is not as good as the 360 where it upscales everything thru hardware.

This sounds like what I've been reading, but woudn't having the TV do the scaling result in less lag?

Also, I thought I read that later PS3 added a hardware scaler...need to research more.
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Old 02-22-2010, 04:41 PM
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for some reason when i used the ps3 with my projector @ 1080i every game was output to the projector at 1080i. 1080i was my projectors highest resolution & it took too long changing from different resolutions so my fix was: allow ps3 only to out put at 1080i. i sold the projector so i can't do some testing.
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

If you are getting manual values of zero (or less!), then you are definitely hitting it early. I do the opposite -- I consistently hit 10-20ms late, based on the numbers I get vs. stopwatch tests.

Other folks' auto calibration results seem to be generally consistent with stopwatch tests, so I'd say auto-cal is at least close. If nothing else, it gives a good relative idea of the differences between models and settings, and is really easy to do.

FWIW, I find that I play better if I set the delay closer to the "real" value instead of my manual value.



It's quite possible that local dimming adds to the actual lag; it might need to do this to keep the dimming from happening too late.



Using an accurate counter, a high-speed camera, a video card with no delay between ports and a CRT for reference is the acid test. This is pretty hard to come by, though. In the absence of this, RB auto-cal is a useful substitute.

From my experiences, the RB2 auto calibration is not inline with the counter/stopwatch. In the A650 input lag thread, several have reported ~60ms of lag in movie mode using the counter/stopwatch, which is about what I got manually calibrating RB2 (actually, I got slightly less). The auto calibration (using the stratocaster) always gave me numbers 15-20ms higher.

I tried the manual calibration again using this guide and I got around 20-30ms with my LH90, which again is ~15-20ms lower than what the auto calibration gave me.
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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in theory the auto calibration in RB2 should be relatively accurate but i could easily see it adding some lag because it relies on a sensor mounted on a controller so there is likely some sensor to controller or possibly even controller to console delay that would result in adding to the real lag of the TV

manual calibration via RB2 or other games is far from accurate because it relies on a person to respond to a moving object on a screen so you will easily end up with a wide result spread based on human error and peoples reaction time varies as well

the counter/stopwatch and a camera method when used with a fast TN PC monitor or CRT monitor is the most accurate way but in my tests unless you have a very and i mean very good camera and a very fast TN monitor (2ms real response) you almost always get a variance in results of 8-16 ms

only one person that has posted test results on here ended up with the same result a high percentage of the time and i'm sure it was due to his camera being set at a very high shutter speed and his TN PC monitor was very fast. CRT's don't work because you cannot take a picture of them with a high shutter speed you just end up with a single row on the screen

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:26 PM
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Watch the video that I linked to above if you haven't already. It is FAR more accurate than the built in manual calibration. I'd even say it's the second best method of testing.
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Watch the video that I linked to above if you haven't already. It is FAR more accurate than the built in manual calibration. I'd even say it's the second best method of testing.

I'll check it out when i get home from work because i have no sound on my work PC but the main problem i will have with RB calibration methods is the lack of proof via pictures that its as fast as you think it is because doing a manual or auto cal is going to either way be less reliable than using a control display and a camera

don't get me wrong its definitely useful for getting a rough idea how laggy a TV is but its not solid evidence of how fast it really is

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:49 PM
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To give you an idea of how the completely manual method of calibrating works, there's a 'hit box' in RB2 where you can strum/hit a note slightly late or slightly early. Ideally, you want the video to be in the middle of this hit box. The video tells you to go to quickplay or training mode and purposely hit/strum the notes late and early to get an idea where this hit box is. It also says that increasing the offset pulls the video towards you and minus takes the video away from you. So for example, if the video signal is closer to the front-end of the hit box, there won't be as much leeway before the note but there will be a lot of leeway after the note; so what you would want to do is lower the offset so the video signal moves away from you closer to the middle of the hit box.
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