Lag results - Samsung A750 vs B650 - Also my Opinion on them both compared - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:23 PM
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Guys, the two person FPS argument makes sense only if you are talking about PC gaming. With consoles the vast majority of people use television sets and it's a good bet they will have the same input lag as you do. The funny thing is the one's that may beat you are the guys still running ghetto CRT sets but who cares? If input lag is that important, plug your 360 into a TN panel and be done with it.
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 5150Joker View Post

Guys, the two person FPS argument makes sense only if you are talking about PC gaming. With consoles the vast majority of people use television sets and it's a good bet they will have the same input lag as you do. The funny thing is the one's that may beat you are the guys still running ghetto CRT sets but who cares? If input lag is that important, plug your 360 into a TN panel and be done with it.

Yah... but we want our cake and eat it too!

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greater Malison View Post

Wow seriously depressing thread here ;-) I've been researching hdtvs starting from scratch for about 3 months now & I'd finally narrowed it down to a few models which arent even close to the high end sammys being mentioned here.

sammy LNxxA450
toshiba xxAV502U
sharp LC-xxSB24U

This tv's sole purpose is for my xbox on which i play a lot of Cod free for all. A fast paced FPS as im sure a lot of you know where even the slightest bit of lag as someone else eloquently pointed out about two people coming around the corner at the same time can make the differnce between kill or be killed.

Also like someone else had mentioned I had ventured over to the plasma board because i heard mentions of no response times and other stuff but by the time i got done reading about breaking in, IR, and everything else i had a headache.

Is there any lag test info on some of these older models? Maybe I should just get an lcd for single player games and leave online gaming to my hulking sony crt which still has a pretty decent picture. Any thoughts?



I don't know of a thread that has a total and complete comprehensive list of all Displays and their input lag. That would be too good to be true. You're just gunna have to do alot of searches and dig through old threads with those models, unfortunately.

Suxs I know. The great sacrifice in 'Big screen gaming'... LAG. At least you'll be losing in style!

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by KVW View Post

Yah... but we want our cake and eat it too!

Haha I hear ya, I'd love to be able to use game mode all the time but the PQ is so crappy that I just can't deal with it. I tried PC mode which was a little better but it was still not nearly as nice as standard mode. I figure if i turn off AMP, edge sharpening, DNIE etc and use standard, it has to shave down the lag somewhat right? When I did some testing earlier this way I couldn't notice any difference at all between it and PC mode so I guess if there is indeed a 30ms lag present, ignorance is bliss
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 5150Joker View Post

Haha I hear ya, I'd love to be able to use game mode all the time but the PQ is so crappy that I just can't deal with it. I tried PC mode which was a little better but it was still not nearly as nice as standard mode. I figure if i turn off AMP, edge sharpening, DNIE etc and use standard, it has to shave down the lag somewhat right? When I did some testing earlier this way I couldn't notice any difference at all between it and PC mode so I guess if there is indeed a 30ms lag present, ignorance is bliss

That's where the B650 shines, It looks as though Samsung really got the PQ down for Game and PC mode so there's no real sacrifice in PQ when putting it in those modes. It's just that... I'm spoiled. I was really hoping the PC mode was the same amount of input lag but just prettier. Well it's prettier alright, but now the same lag as game mode. If game mode's input lag is sufficient enough for you, then it's all good. For me I still don't know if it's sufficiently low enough for me. I'm going to do some serious gaming between the a750 PC mode and b650 game mode and make my decision by the end of this weekend.

Unless... someone knows of a better panel of roughly the same size and price point?

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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Old 03-30-2009, 07:45 PM
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TBH 30ms lag is good, you will be hard pressed to find an HDTV LCD with less than that because there are only a few out there that have been tested as that fast and even then the a650 line's testing has been done vs PC LCD's (I assume it was a fast Dell TN panel but that doesnt change the fact that just by using a PC LCD it should have reduced the guys lag result by at least 8 MS )

still though the a650/750/850's in their super crappy looking PC modes are king besides panny lz800's and those are also now discontinued and hard to find and only made in 32" and 37" sizes

to the guy asking about the lower end TV's who knows buy one and give it a shot, it will likely be fine lag wise because lower end sets tend to have less image processing that is the cause of this input lag to begin with

imho most gamers will be just happy with the majority of name brand LCD's out today lag wise they can all be reduced to under 45ms of lag many down to 30ms and its very hard to notice that small amount of lag

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 03-30-2009, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greater Malison View Post

Wow seriously depressing thread here ;-) I've been researching hdtvs starting from scratch for about 3 months now & I'd finally narrowed it down to a few models which arent even close to the high end sammys being mentioned here.

sammy LNxxA450
toshiba xxAV502U
sharp LC-xxSB24U

This tv's sole purpose is for my xbox on which i play a lot of Cod free for all. A fast paced FPS as im sure a lot of you know where even the slightest bit of lag as someone else eloquently pointed out about two people coming around the corner at the same time can make the differnce between kill or be killed.

Also like someone else had mentioned I had ventured over to the plasma board because i heard mentions of no response times and other stuff but by the time i got done reading about breaking in, IR, and everything else i had a headache.

Is there any lag test info on some of these older models? Maybe I should just get an lcd for single player games and leave online gaming to my hulking sony crt which still has a pretty decent picture. Any thoughts?

Well I did well at COD4 with my 52A650 and 46XBR4. It didn't seem any different then my 50PZ85U or 111FD Plasma sets. The difference might be there but I think most of it is mental.

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Old 03-30-2009, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

Well I did well at COD4 with my 52A650 and 46XBR4. It didn't seem any different then my 50PZ85U or 111FD Plasma sets. The difference might be there but I think most of it is mental.

when the lag is fairly low the issue is mental imo I for one was shocked to test my 32xbr6 at 30-45 ms lag average but it is there its just too small to notice

on the other had before i settled on my 32xbr6 i had a super cheap Insignia 32" from BB and when i had it hooked up to my PC the mouse felt extremely disconnected and laggy I could clearly see the cursor take a very noticeable time to react to my hand movements and it was connected via VGA input, I never tested it before i returned it and got my 32xbr6 but if i had to guess it was prolly laggin in the 100+ ms range

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 03-30-2009, 08:36 PM
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With that lag that low it is usually mental (for 99% of people)...

You know how easily things change with us humans because what has always been told to us and what we don't know.

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Old 03-30-2009, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

With that lag that low it is usually mental (for 99% of people)...

You know how easily things change with us humans once we have been been told to us what we don't know.


Fixed that for you there

and yes your absolutely correct, once your told about an issue it tends to suddenly pop out and bug the crap out of most people afterwards, personally I try to just forget about it LOL

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 03-30-2009, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by frito View Post

Fixed that for you there

and yes your absolutely correct, once your told about an issue it tends to suddenly pop out and bug the crap out of most people afterwards, personally I try to just forget about it LOL



Thanks for the fix I was in a hurry typing and didn't know how to correctly say it right.

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Old 03-30-2009, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

Thanks for the fix I was in a hurry typing and didn't know how to correctly say it right.

haha yeah, I read it and was like, That doesn't make much sense but i get where your going with the statement

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 03-30-2009, 09:41 PM
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Threads like this make me want to keep my HD CRT
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Old 03-30-2009, 10:41 PM
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I apologize if this has been covered already, but while the shots show the lag difference between the B650 and A750, what's the overall approximate lag of the B650?

I've been very interested in the B650, but it seems these downsides keep popping up. I don't game online that much, but even if I'm just playing single player games, I don't want noticable lag.

I currently game on an "old" LN-T2653H (been wanting a size upgrade for a while). Anyone know the lag of that TV, because if the B650 is close or the same then it's no issue for me - but the 53H doesn't have a lot processing and it's 720p native so I'm assuming it doesn't have much lag.
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Old 03-30-2009, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onden View Post

I apologize if this has been covered already, but while the shots show the lag difference between the B650 and A750, what's the overall approximate lag of the B650?

I've been very interested in the B650, but it seems these downsides keep popping up. I don't game online that much, but even if I'm just playing single player games, I don't want noticable lag.

I currently game on an "old" LN-T2653H (been wanting a size upgrade for a while). Anyone know the lag of that TV, because if the B650 is close or the same then it's no issue for me - but the 53H doesn't have a lot processing and it's 720p native so I'm assuming it doesn't have much lag.

Roughly the same as a650 in game mode, no change really, where the difference comes in is VGA and HDMI/DVI input labeled to PC on A650's set a special mode that reduced lag to near zero and the new B650's lag just the same as in game mode with these inputs/settings so in that respect its slower by 15 or so ms not a big deal to most people

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 03-30-2009, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
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If someone wants to lend me a crt capable of 1920x1080, I'll gladly give you what the total lag is for all modes on both the a750 and b650. Right now I can only give u numbers against the panels in my house which is those two plus a panny lz800 and a couple LG 25.5" screens.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Did some game playing last night on both panels in standard mode (with AMP on), Game mode, PC mode.

Sigh... I don't know if I need to bother waiting until this weekend.

Impressions:

1) AMP is significantly better than last years' model. On the A750, AMP on any level, I can see graphical anomalies, even with my cross hairs on Call of Duty 4. B650's improved AMP is nearly anomaly free! This is also evident in movies as well. AMP is MUCH IMPROVED on the b650!
2) Gaming on Standard (with AMP) on B650 is virtually unplayable. Sure AMP is improved but wow, at a very noticeable cost to input lag. I'm not kidding, the lag is insane and far worse than the A750's AMP lag! Basically you aren't using the B650 for gaming without putting it in to game mode. The a750 with AMP is borderline playable but then you have all those annoying anomalies of the older AMP so what's the point.
3) Game mode on B650 10x prettier than the A750's game mode, bleah!
4) Game mode on either displays is playable but I *CAN* feel the lag with my mouse controlled aiming reticle in COD4. MHO, you're fooling yourself if you think you aren't at a disadvantage against regular non-hdtv PC gamers online. If the Panny lz800 is roughly 15-30ms lag, the Samsung in Game mode is 50-60ms and the a750's PC mode/VGA is somewhere in-between. I don't even want to guess what the B650 /w AMP is. Again, my *opinion* as far as acceptable input lag, the a750's PC mode/vga is a minimum.

Sigh... I'm just spoiled, I know. I'm at the point to where I feel like just returning them both and waiting for Panny's IPS G1 panel coming out this may and see if it really is possible to have the low input lag of the lz800 but with some motion smoothing 120hz goodness. Just wish they'd make it bigger than 37"!

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by KVW View Post

...On the A750, AMP on any level, I can see graphical anomalies, even with my cross hairs on Call of Duty 4...

Could you go into greater detail on this? What types of anomalies were you seeing on the 750?
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:33 PM
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Could you go into greater detail on this? What types of anomalies were you seeing on the 750?

Probably the usual triple ball effect (TBE) that was crazy bad on the 07 TVs when they first came out with frame interpolation technology.

Personally with AMP on low I didn't see **** even when I was trying out for Grand Theft Auto 3 played on the 360, Grand Theft Auto 4, Half Life 2 Orange Box all on the 360. This is with HDMI connection so I don't know about anything else.

Videos/Movies I never have that on it takes away from the film look and I don't notice annoying judder or motion blur so I guess it doesn't affect me much.

Anyways 08 TVs improved on lessening the artifacts with AMP plus with newer firmwares it also helped too. So no surprise that 09 TVs improved it even more. The thing I'm jealous about is the 2 options it has for AMP. Could increase motion resolution while minimizing the soap opera effect that's sweet. Could come in handy in the future if I notice some judder on something.

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Old 03-31-2009, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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yah it was mostly TBE. The crosshairs would go nuts when I moved my screen quickly from left to right in any AMP mode on the a750 (latest firmware btw). But I occasionally see other stuff too but at this point, I'm in evaluation mode so i'm actively looking for issues. The b650 exhibits none of the stuff i saw with the a750 even with it's sliders maxed. But it doesn't matter, the added input lag is worse than the TBE errors. It's unusable.

One of my favorite blue-ray movie test scenes is the Matrix Revolutions, the Freeway scene. It's a great scene to test, because the back ground is constantly moving over relatively stationary objects (the actors). Lots of AMP errors during that whole sequence. The b650 handles that entire screen with far less graphical glitches than the a750.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:55 PM
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Hmmm, good to know. Luckily I never seen the TBE on my 750; can't remember which Firmware pack I'm running.
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Old 03-31-2009, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Well guys, I returned the b650.



.... And picked up the b550.



. Lol I couldn't help it. It's a sickness. The curiosity got the best of me and I'm just wonder how the lag will be on samsung's new 60hz set. It's so affordable too, 400 cheaper than both the 40" a750 and b650.


I'll let you know of my results!

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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Old 03-31-2009, 10:42 PM
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Your crazy with the returns lol!!!

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Old 03-31-2009, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Yah this time my GF put it on her card for me. She's a trooper.

At least ya'll can benefit from my obession! I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised. The PQ looked pretty good at the store. Maybe this will be my keeper... I always say that though.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KVW View Post

Yah this time my GF put it on her card for me. She's a trooper.

At least ya'll can benefit from my obession! I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised. The PQ looked pretty good at the store. Maybe this will be my keeper... I always say that though.

haha you do, GL with it hope it performs as you hope

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 04-01-2009, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Samsung B550 HDMI1 named "DVI-PC" vs Samsung A750 HDMI2 named "PC" - B550 is Primary (B550 on left, A750 on right):










As crazy as this is, it looks as Samsung's 09's 60hz LCD panels lags as bad as their new 120hz b650.

I'll do more test later like VGA and Standard and game mode. But I don't think game mode does much on the b550, the screen doesn't even blink out as if it made any signifcant changes like it does on the a750 or b650.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh yah - and initial, first look PQ comparison.

-Right off the bat, like the b650, the B550 has a much brighter screen than the a750. Blacks appear a bit deeper too.

-Less clouding/flash lighting than the a750, virtually none. Better QC or luck?

-Doh! a dead pixel (not stuck but dead). So much for QC or luck. a750 and b650 had no stuck/dead pixels btw.

-Colors are vastly different between the a750 and b550. In fact when viewing this very forum, the pastel background colors are very different than the a750. Skin tones are very different. I don't have a reference so I don't know which display is more correct but I prefer the b550s as I don't think ppl should be as tan as they seem on my a750. b550 has a slight green push where the a750 has a slight red push. They both probably need some calibration regardless.

-Pixels seem... bigger on the B550 for a lack of a better description. I dunno how quite to explain it, it's definitely not as good of a monitor to sit 3 feet away from compared to the A750. The picture looks "cleaner" and pixels are less noticeable on the a750. The B550 has sort of a noisier picture in general. I think Samsung changed panel types in 09. I need to take a macro picture of both displays to see how their pixels look close up.

-Color transitions not quite as smooth. 10bit vs 8 bit? I dunno.

-Despite all that, it's still an overall good looking monitor though!

That's it for now... g'Nite folks.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KVW View Post

-Pixels seem... bigger on the B550 for a lack of a better description. I dunno how quite to explain it, it's definitely not as good of a monitor to sit 3 feet away from compared to the A750. The picture looks "cleaner" and pixels are less noticeable on the a750. The B550 has sort of a noisier picture in general. I think Samsung changed panel types in 09. I need to take a macro picture of both displays to see how their pixels look close up.

sounds like they didn't change much on the b550 vs the a550

I seen the same sort of picture quality your describing here on a 32a550 and that is one of the main reasons i picked the 32xbr6 over it when i was looking for my TV

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:18 AM
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Probably not a Samsung panel on the b550 same issue people were having on the lower than 650 models from Samsung.

Check to see what panel you got on the b550.

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Old 04-01-2009, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I looked. It seems as though Samsung stopped shooting themselves in the foot by marking their panels with these 09 panels. There's no longer a letter following the model on the back.

The A750 is an S panel, according to the label on the back btw. But who knows, I read late in 08 Samsung got wind of all the negative press about panel types and start labeling them all S.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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