Lag results - Samsung A750 vs B650 - Also my Opinion on them both compared - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 136 Old 03-28-2009, 10:41 PM - Thread Starter
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For some time now I've been in dire search for a display that can be a PC monitor for gaming/web-browsing and still be able to sit back and enjoy a movie in a big screen fashion. So factors that are important to me are:

a) Picture quality (of course this is first right)
b) Motion smoothing (because i'm extra sensitive to low FPS - I actually like SOE)
c) Low input lag (for the online twitch games)
d) 40-42" (once you use a huge screen for a PC, you can't go back)
e) Windows text quality (hard to live with fuzzy text)

Probably in that order although they all weigh heavily in my decision making.

Now after going through several displays (through the help of Fry's/Best Buy return policy), from Samsung, Sony, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Toshiba and even Hitachi , I've narrowed to two Samsungs. Now mind you, this isn't because they are the best displays out there, not by any means. Just that they seem to be close enough to what I'm looking for and frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of the endless searching, returning and testing.

Now ever since I got the B650, I must admit that I was becoming attached to it, despite its ugly chin design (what were they thinking). Its whites are just a tad whiter than the a750, the blacks a bit more black. There's just a bit more POP to the picture, perhaps because of slightly better contrast. Note the words, 'just a bit more' - we're not taking a huge difference here! Both have the lovely gloss screen, although the b650 does suffer from slight flash lighting from all four corners, it makes up for it with its ability to have a darker overall black. I was also liking the new customizable AMP settings. I thought for sure the b650 was going to be my keeper. That was until... I did the lag tests.

Yes, that's right folks. I'm sad to report, It looks as though Samsung has made their displays SLOWER this year than last.

Before I show you my screenshots, Let me first explain why I post primary vs. secondary screenshots. It's because, at least in my setup, it makes a difference. The Primary display (in clone mode) throughout all my testing always seems to have nearly a frame advantage (about 16ms). So always take note of that when you see my screenshots! The primary display has a slight advantage in speed. So if the primary is losing to a secondary, then you KNOW it's bad!

Without further ado, here are the numbers (B650 on left, A750 on right on ALL pics!):


Samsung b650 hdmi1 AMP sliders maxed vs Samsung a750 AMP on High: Both no Dynamic contrast or black enhancements - b650 primary








Samsung b650 hdmi1 AMP sliders maxed vs Samsung a750 AMP on High: Both no Dynamic contrast or black enhancements - a750 primary








Samsung b650 Hdmi1 named "DVI PC" vs Samsung a750 HDMI2-PC - b650 primary








Samsung b650 Hdmi1 named "DVI PC" vs Samsung a750 HDMI2-PC - a750 primary








Samsung b650 hdmi1 named "HDMI1-PC" vs Samsung a750 named HDMI2-PC - b650 primary








Samsung b650 hdmi1 "Game Mode" vs Samsung a750 HDMI2-PC - b650 primary








Samsung b650 VGA Mode vs Samsung a750 HDMI2-PC - b650 primary









So it looks as though I'll be returning the b650. I just can't in good conscious choose the b650 over the a750 knowing the PQ is only slightly better but at a cost to input latency in every mode. Perhaps to some of you guys however, it may be worth it. Also, I should note that the b650 would cost me $150 buxs more than the a750.

BTW just so everyone knows, EVERY panel i lag tested these past few months was ALWAYS behind my GF's panny 32lz800 as far as lag, even a samsung in VGA or HDMI2-PC mode. As far as I'm concerned it IS the lag king. Now if only Panny would make them in larger sizes with 120hz.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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post #2 of 136 Old 03-28-2009, 11:08 PM
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wow surprising results, I think everyone expected the 09 samsungs would be on par with 08's, at least i did

Guess so much for keeping that B650, at least your saving a few bucks

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #3 of 136 Old 03-28-2009, 11:49 PM
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Great job on the lag research. I hope you plan to add the B750 to your test plan. I have a feeling the B750 will fare better.
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post #4 of 136 Old 03-28-2009, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mi7chy View Post

Great job on the lag research. I hope you plan to add the B750 to your test plan. I have a feeling the B750 will fare better.

I doubt it its just a b650 with a few added features the hardware and the software is probably going to be close the same just like the 08' 650/750/850's were i bet

This just goes to show that TV manufactures believe as I do that ~30 ms of input lag is acceptable for gaming and to most people it is

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #5 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

I doubt it its just a b650 with a few added features the hardware and the software is probably going to be close the same just like the 08' 650/750/850's were i bet

This just goes to show that TV manufactures believe as I do that ~30 ms of input lag is acceptable for gaming and to most people it is

That's kinda what I was thinking. They'll most likely post simular results... but who knows! I do know one thing, the b750 will be outta my price range as I'm already streching it, as it is with either this a750 or b650.

The only 09 Samsung panels I think *may* have better input lag results is perhaps their 60hz b550 panels. Why? Because you can't truely turn 120hz off on these Samsung upper models and it's known the extra processing 120hz screens do, adds latency. Infact this is why MANY ppl believe HDTVs will get laggier before they get better UNLESS there's a big enough outcry from gamers to force manufactures to make a REAL "Game mode". One that doesn't lower the latency only a miniscule 30%. Alas, 'game mode' is VERY much an after thought.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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post #6 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 04:32 AM
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Unbelievable. So it's something like 110 ms of lag in Standard mode? Because what's the point of using Game or PC modes? You trade lag for motion resolution, both of which are important. When I've tried to game with AMP/Motionflow off, it's a blurry mess.

It's odd that now plasma is the way to go for gaming. Motion resolution AND less lag. I'm like the OP in that I use my set as a PC monitor, so I just can't use plasma.
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post #7 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I know - it's a dilemma. I was this close to setting up a Plasma as my PC display but after hanging out in the Plasma forums, all the talk about breaking it in, temp and perm IR and green ghosting, jeez you just can't win. It would be my luck that I leave my system on, it locks up or freezes because of over clocking and the screen saver doesn't activate and I come home to a permanent image of my desktop on my screen.

And yah, without game mode, it would guess the lag would eclipse 100ms. I can feel it with my mouse in Windows, it's pretty damn bad. The toshiba 540u I tested isn't as bad when not in game mode, but I didn't care for the poor PQ, bad viewing angles, and it's less agressive motion smoothing (it's hardly noticable). The Sonys I tested were even worse than the a750, actually about the same as this b650 I'd say as far as lag is concerned.

So far the A750 with it's ability to do HDMI2-PC has been the best compromise I can come up with.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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post #8 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KVW View Post

I know - it's a dilemma. I was this close to setting up a Plasma as my PC display but after hanging out in the Plasma forums, all the talk about breaking it in, temp and perm IR and green ghosting, jeez you just can't win.
And yah, without game mode, it would guess the lag would eclipse 100ms. I can feel it with my mouse in Windows, it's pretty damn bad. The toshiba 540u I tested isn't as bad when not in game mode, but I didn't care for the poor PQ, bad viewing angles, and it's less agressive motion smoothing (it's hardly noticable). The Sonys I tested were even worse than the a750, actually about the same as this b650 I'd say as far as lag is concerned.

So far the A750 with it's ability to do HDMI2-PC has been the best compromise I can come up with.

wow pretty technical my man, if you your eyes can pick up all that razzle dazzle talk you prob can see the slightest change in PQ. and if you head over to the "which hdmi cable to buy" thread and use the good brands over the cheapies your A650 will stand out even more and save u hundreds vs the B650.
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post #9 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 07:36 AM
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I have a feeling the B750 will fare better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

I doubt it its just a b650 with a few added features the hardware and the software is probably going to be close the same just like the 08' 650/750/850's were i bet

This year the specs are considerably different on the B750 vs. the B650.

Contrast is 150,000:1
Response time is 2ms
Refresh rate is 240Hz
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post #10 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 09:30 AM
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This is disappointing. I was all ready to pull the trigger on a B650, too. But I don't know if I can do that knowing I'll be playing Xbox 360 on it. It sure seems hard to find an LCD good with a great picture like the Samsung yet having good enough performance for video games.
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post #11 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper View Post

I have a feeling the B750 will fare better.



This year the specs are considerably different on the B750 vs. the B650.

Contrast is 150,000:1
Response time is 2ms
Refresh rate is 240Hz

Contrast is 150,000:1
Made up numbers they do not matter or say anything about what the real CR is

Response time is 2ms
this is pixel lag and given that they don't tell you the color method for testing said lag, it can be completely wrong in the wrong color transition , ex. most LCD's show their pixel lag in Gray to Gray response, that is a terrible way to test it, black to white is the hardest for most LCD's and will no doubt show higher number than 2ms. , 2ms on any size screen highly unlikely unless its a PC sized monitor with an overdriven TN panel. LCD's vary in their pixel lag and the bigger a panel gets the more it has pixel lag, not to mention if they continue to use various different panels like they did last year they will vary in speed between them as well!

not to mention that pixel lag has little to nothing to do with input lag, all it does is stack on top of the input lag on the set already to make it worse

Refresh rate is 240Hz
This is likely to make the input lag worse than the B650 due to the TV having to double twice as many frames at a game consoles 60hz signal therefore increasing input lag

60hz input on a 120hz set = 2:2 pulldown
60hz input on a 240hz set = 4:4 pulldown

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #12 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 10:03 AM
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KVW, as you had mentioned, it sounds like maybe you should try an A550 model.
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post #13 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

KVW, as you had mentioned, it sounds like maybe you should try an A550 model.

the A550 has more lag than a650/a750/a850 it has already been tested around 30ms if lag, in line with 08' sony's and a650's in game mode on HDMI


heres the test vs a CRT
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16092353

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #14 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 10:12 AM
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nvm i'm an idot, wrong window!! lol

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #15 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 11:34 AM
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So basically the Toshiba xv540u (120hz) is slightly faster against a Sony and Samsung 120hz TVs when none of the TVs are in Game Mode.

When all TVs are in Game Mode the Samsung is slightly faster than Toshiba and Sony.

When in HDMI2/PC the Samsung is the fastest against the Sony and Toshiba.

When in VGA The Samsung is slightly faster than HDMI2/PC.

This is when talking about 120hz TVs...

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post #16 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 11:39 AM
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I do noticed that plasmas don't have a big advantage in input lag as much as you people think though.

So far what I've seen is that the Panasonic plasmas are the fastest plasmas while the Pioneer is best for picture quality when talking about plasma TVs.

Still Plasmas were horrible for gaming IMO since I noticed the Phosphor Lag (google it) when gaming and that was way more annoying then motion blur which I don't notice.

Plus permanent burn-in is rare but temporary image retention is not and that is gay especially for someone who likes to use the display as a PC monitor and leave the TV on for hours with material that uses black bars.

Thank god for me though that I'm not that sensitive to input lag and my gaming settings are good enough for me and just in case Game Mode on the Sammy a650 looks hot IMO and look very close to my custom gaming settings so I'm good lol.

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post #17 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 11:49 AM
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One thing guy why do all tests with the amp on high that could add more input lag to the set.

This is just a guess but I think this year the AMP feature has improved on the b650 but at the same time it means more processing being done by the TV when putting the AMP to its highest on the b650 versus a750 amp high. On second thought that doesn't explain the Game Mode still being slower which I believe still takes off amp on the b650 not sure on that but on the a750 it does.


Also you did some comparisons wrong you tested an a750 on hidmi2/pc to game mode on b650 which it should have been game mode on a750 versus game mode on b650.

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post #18 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

the A550 has more lag than a650/a750/a850 it has already been tested around 30ms if lag, in line with 08' sony's and a650's in game mode on HDMI


heres the test vs a CRT
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16092353

How on earth could a 550 have MORE lag than a 650? Everything I've read and seen recently has stated the complete opposite. The 120hz tvs always have more lag than a 60hz tv.

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post #19 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerriot View Post

How on earth could a 550 have MORE lag than a 650? Everything I've read and seen recently has stated the complete opposite. The 120hz tvs always have more lag than a 60hz tv.

they dont have the HDMI2/PC mode the a650/750/850's have that cuts down on the lag so much, otherwise they are prolly about the same

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #20 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 12:20 PM
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The a550 should be faster than the a650 when both not in Game Mode or PC mode.

Plus the a550 should be faster than the a650 when both are in Game Mode.

HDMI2/PC mode on the a650 really is the fastest mode regardless if its a little faster than Game Mode from what I've seen in numbers.

So that explains a550 not being faster than a650 when in HDMI2/PC mode.

Regardless HDMI2/PC mode looks like crap really...

Kaki said it best in the a650 calibration thread this TV is best left in video mode not PC mode for best quality. Unless in PC use the YCbCr option should be used when you can and not RGB where it has been shown to be slightly worse than YCbCr.

Hell PC mode was not meant to be a Game Mode per say it was only meant for a true PC use where its purpose was only to fix the text issue that's it.

When I'm using my a650 for the PC I only turn on HDMI2/PC when browsing stuff or reading but even in the PC use I turn off HDMI2/PC mode when playing a PC game or watching a video in the PC.

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post #21 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 12:33 PM
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you are correct, that is why I argue that any good brand TV is good enough for gaming because except a few sets (panny lz800, maybe some sharps) with game mode turned on samsungs, sonys, toshibas, they are all pretty close to the same with input lag at around 30-40 ms and with some time spent using a set with this small amount of lag you can easily get used to it and it wont adversely effect gameplay that much

what is interesting though is that the sony's tend to be pretty much the same input lag wise in my tests regardless of what resolution is being fed to it, even using svideo in with game mode set to on it only lags up to 40-50 ms where other displays like samsungs are well into 80-100ms range that is way bad

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #22 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 01:03 PM
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I like when people put up results in general cause it shuts down people who don't know or even own the TVs claim one brand is the best or worst in input lag. For example the exaggerated claims of people saying the 120hz Samsung (a6,7,8 series) is the worst of all the 120hz TVs in input lag.

Here's a rule with any given new change (anything) always take the time with it and get adjusted to it. When trying out settings always give it some time with it before you disregard it.

Here's the funny thing if we didn't have the forums where one person talks about input lag and spreads it around how many do you think would really have the input lag of Game Mode on this TVs affect their game play. A lot less than what it is now that's what we all can easily believe something when many talk about it it's psychological for many (not all) IMO.

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post #23 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

I like when people put up results in general cause it shuts down people who don't know or even own the TVs claim one brand is the best or worst in input lag. For example the exaggerated claims of people saying the 120hz Samsung (a6,7,8 series) is the worst of all the 120hz TVs in input lag.

Yeah input lag is really a very subjective thing to most people, I for one thought my own sony 32xbr6 was mostly lag free because I use it as a PC monitor and figured if it was bad I would easily notice moving my mouse or in FPS games, I had an Insignia 32" TV before this one and its input lag was extremely bad, so bad it threw off lip sync real bad on everything except its built in tuner and in windows i would move my mouse and a second later the cursor would move it was lol lag

course upon testing my sony vs a CRT monitor i discovered it lags 30-45 ms behind a CRT but even still the only way i can see the lag happen because its so slight is by looking at the reflection of my screen on my glass desk while looking at my mouse at the same time when i move it back and forth I can clearly see a very very slight delay, but in normal use it seems fast enough it does not bother me

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #24 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

. Here's the funny thing if we didn't have the forums where one person talks about input lag and spreads it around how many do you think would really have the input lag of Game Mode on this TVs affect their game play. A lot less than what it is now that's what we all can easily believe something when many talk about it it's psychological for many (not all) IMO.


haha yep I think you are absolutely right to most people 30-45 ms of lag is unnoticeable and they adapt to it very quickly with use.

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #25 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

Also you did some comparisons wrong you tested an a750 on hidmi2/pc to game mode on b650 which it should have been game mode on a750 versus game mode on b650.

I didn't do game mode vs game mode, because at that point, I was already convinced that the a750 was just faster period and I wanted to see if any mode of the b650 would match the a750's infamous HDMI2-PC mode as that was my benchmark for others to compete against. I can do a game mode vs game mode if you like but I'm pretty sure I can already guess the outcome.

Also yah that's why I didn't try one test with the AMP sliders half way or something, because even with AMP off, the set just isn't that fast. But again, I still have the TV for a few hours more before I return it, so any last requests, better tell me now...

Also I agree HDMI2-PC mode looks like crap. But when it comes to online play, I'd rather have A OPTION than none at all to reduce the lag as much as possible. You gotta remember that I was used to the LZ800 and in ANY SETTING, it beats both Samsungs, HDMI2-PC mode or not.

Again finding out the B650 was significantly slower was disappointing news. If I could discover a mode that DOES allow it to be as fast as the A750, I would be returning the A750. Another perk of the B650 is while in HDMI1-PC mode, or HDMI-DVI-PC, mode (it has two "PC" settings btw) both of them look FAR better than the A750 in its PC mode. It doesn't wash everything out or turn sharpness in to what seems like, the negative.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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post #26 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 03:01 PM
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There seems to be a recurring bug in nearly every Samsung set regarding image processing, that has been fixed by firmware in some sets but not in others. Particularly, in some Series 6 LCDs, AMP is on whether you like it or not.

It can be fixed by "starting" the TV in PC or game mode. Basically all you have to do is set your TV to PC mode (either the VGA port, or the relevant HDMI port set to PC mode) or game mode, turn the TV off and then back on. Then AMP is properly forced off and at that point should actually obey the menu settings. In some sets, turning AMP on will cause the bug again and you'll have to restart the whole process to be certain it's off.

I would be interested to see what numbers you get if you take these steps on the B650 and run some game/pc mode tests again.
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post #27 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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There seems to be a recurring bug in nearly every Samsung set regarding image processing, that has been fixed by firmware in some sets but not in others. Particularly, in some Series 6 LCDs, AMP is on whether you like it or not.

It can be fixed by "starting" the TV in PC or game mode. Basically all you have to do is set your TV to PC mode (either the VGA port, or the relevant HDMI port set to PC mode) or game mode, turn the TV off and then back on. Then AMP is properly forced off and at that point should actually obey the menu settings. In some sets, turning AMP on will cause the bug again and you'll have to restart the whole process to be certain it's off.

I would be interested to see what numbers you get if you take these steps on the B650 and run some game/pc mode tests again.

Interesting. You know I read something bout that here on AVS a while back but forgot completely. I'd be surprised if this is the case as turning it in to game or PC mode on this B650 DID have an effect, you could easily feel how much better the mouse responded in windows. But I'll give that a try and post pics if I find out it had an affect!

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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What I'm really confused about is the VGA mode, which was known to be the "nearly lag free" mode on the A650, is now up to 30ms slower than HDMI/PC? This is very surprising, and concerning for myself since I was planning on running my Xbox through VGA on my yet-to-be-purchased TV.
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post #29 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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What I'm really confused about is the VGA mode, which was known to be the "nearly lag free" mode on the A650, is now up to 30ms slower than HDMI/PC? This is very surprising, and concerning for myself since I was planning on running my Xbox through VGA on my yet-to-be-purchased TV.

Yah I thought for sure the VGA was going to be the solution. And it would have been something I would have been satisfied with. Dissappointment really set in at that moment. But I'm going to run a quick couple of tests as OneDeadlyBum suggested. One last shred of hope that it's just a bug and I need to power down the set turn it back on...

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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post #30 of 136 Old 03-29-2009, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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OK I just tested the B650 against the A750, both in GAME mode by changing it in the "setup" in their respective menus. I power cycled them both to be sure the bug mentioned above wasn't happening.

Surprisingly they are just about dead even with only a slightest advantage to which monitor is set to be primary. However on in their respective PC modes, it didn't change the outcome. The A750 still had at least a frame lead.

I actually think Samsung just made a change to PC mode by leaving some video processing on as they probably got complaints that PC mode on the A series washes everything out. There's definitely a PQ difference between the B650's PC mode and the A750s. The B650 looks far better in PC mode. Since it was never Samsung's intention to have PC mode as a solution to reduce lag further from Game mode, this is probably their "Fix" for the poor PQ in PC Mode of the A series.

So is game mode enough for most people? Probably. But remember Game mode on a Samsung is at least a frame behind A750's PC mode. And the A750's PC mode is at least a frame behind an LZ800. And a LZ800 is damn fast, but it is NOT as fast as a CRT (it has some lag of course).

My suspicion is Samsung's Game mode would be around 40-60ms (3-4 frames) when compared to a CRT. It makes a difference still as it's alot better than when not on Game mode! I actually find it to be a chore to navigate the mouse when in Standard mode! That goes for the A750, B650, the Sony Z4100, the Mitsu 40148, every display that's 120hz beside the toshiba. But would it affect you with timing sensitive games? I think so. Those who love fighting games usually will be the first to feel it, next is competitive only shooters.


If anyone else has any suggestions let me know.

Your LCD lags. Learn about input lag and be disenchanted by your expensive LCD set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
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