Official LG "XXLH90" 240hz LED Owners Forum [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 4726 Old 06-22-2009, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ltgary View Post

If you check back a few pages you will see there is much debate about how many leds are in these sets. LG apparently releases the number of groups for leds but doesnt tell how many actual individual lamps there are. But why does it really matter???? Whether it has 1,000 or 3,000 what counts is do you like the picture. LG gives the contrast ratio as 2,000,000/1. What does that really mean to the end user. My 47lg90 from last year is supposed to only have 1/2 the leds as my 55lh90 from this year. However I cant see a difference in picture quality/brightness etc so what does it matter how many are in each set??????????????????The picture on both, IMO, is great. Dont base your buying decision on MANUFACTURERS specs. They are all trying to out do each other.

IMO the amount of LED's does matter because the more there are the better grey scale and gradient and less halo or blooming effect.
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post #182 of 4726 Old 06-22-2009, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post

When I first setup the TV i noticed a super jittery picture on the first HD channel I watched. It might have been the "source" and not the TV. I have the same DISH Vip722 DVR and sometimes my recordings act up. I can usually fix it if I jump forward or backward, sometimes I need to stop the show and then re-start.

I worked at a Home Theater place in Sacramento several years back and I can see things that most/many peopel miss.

I was at Bestbuy the other day looking at the wall mounts. They had Transformers on demo; trying to show the difference between 120hz and non-120. The picture on both TVs was total crap. The colors were WAY WAY oversaturated and there was more grain than a box of Wheeties.

Well, BB is crap with the way they set up their HT area. I noticed that most TVs in their Magnolia center is connected by COMPONENT. As if that brings out the true picture of the set. Only some featured TVs are connected through HDMI to a bluray machine.
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post #183 of 4726 Old 06-22-2009, 07:54 PM
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In theory I might agree with Flyers: More leds would seem to be better for the reasons he pointed out. But that would presume that all the leds were identical. Are they? I know from my flashlights that leds come in different colors, wattages, and sizes. My one watt flashlight is not nearly as bright as my three watt flashlight but both use a single led driven with the same amount of C cell batteries. My UV flashlights are very different from my white ones. Catalogs show leds in different mm sizes(diameters). There may be alot of science involved here besides just numbers??? If my memory is correct Sony speaks about the color of their paticular leds. So maybe Flyers is right and we should be concerned with numbers and then again maybe that isnt so important. I really dont know. Maybe its not the numbers but the grouping or placement of the leds behind the screen??
I just know that to my tired old non-technical eyes both my sets look fine even though one is supposed to have twice as many leds as the other. It would have been nice if LG in their literature would have told us what the additional leds were supposed to do. We know there are more but why did they feel it necessary to increase the amount from last years model??
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post #184 of 4726 Old 06-22-2009, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltgary View Post

In theory I might agree with Flyers: More leds would seem to be better for the reasons he pointed out. But that would presume that all the leds were identical. Are they? I know from my flashlights that leds come in different colors, wattages, and sizes. My one watt flashlight is not nearly as bright as my three watt flashlight but both use a single led driven with the same amount of C cell batteries. My UV flashlights are very different from my white ones. Catalogs show leds in different mm sizes(diameters). There may be alot of science involved here besides just numbers??? If my memory is correct Sony speaks about the color of their paticular leds. So maybe Flyers is right and we should be concerned with numbers and then again maybe that isnt so important. I really dont know. Maybe its not the numbers but the grouping or placement of the leds behind the screen??
I just know that to my tired old non-technical eyes both my sets look fine even though one is supposed to have twice as many leds as the other. It would have been nice if LG in their literature would have told us what the additional leds were supposed to do. We know there are more but why did they feel it necessary to increase the amount from last years model??

IMO you & flyers are both correct in your assumptions and the total LED count & wattage factor into the final energy consumption average of the set. In order for these new sets to get the Energy Star Label certification the manufacturers might be using fewer LEDS on the zone boards or lower wattage Led lamps.

Below is an older article but gives a little insight:

http://hometheatermag.com/gearworks/108gear2/

If I remember and correct me if im wrong but wasnt the XBR8 & A950 local dimming sets Energy Star Rated ? Because both of these sets suffer from slight halos & blooming from what i have read but both are still IMO two of the best still on the market.

Regards,
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post #185 of 4726 Old 06-22-2009, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltgary View Post

In theory I might agree with Flyers: More leds would seem to be better for the reasons he pointed out. But that would presume that all the leds were identical. Are they? I know from my flashlights that leds come in different colors, wattages, and sizes. My one watt flashlight is not nearly as bright as my three watt flashlight but both use a single led driven with the same amount of C cell batteries. My UV flashlights are very different from my white ones. Catalogs show leds in different mm sizes(diameters). There may be alot of science involved here besides just numbers??? If my memory is correct Sony speaks about the color of their paticular leds. So maybe Flyers is right and we should be concerned with numbers and then again maybe that isnt so important. I really dont know. Maybe its not the numbers but the grouping or placement of the leds behind the screen??
I just know that to my tired old non-technical eyes both my sets look fine even though one is supposed to have twice as many leds as the other. It would have been nice if LG in their literature would have told us what the additional leds were supposed to do. We know there are more but why did they feel it necessary to increase the amount from last years model??

I don't really know if all the LED's in the backpanel are all the same wattage or size, however, I would make the assumption that they are the same size wattage and color temp and only because there would be "hot spots" and a very non-uniform screen if they varied. I believe the "older" sets had few more likely because the more LED's you have the more complex the hardware and software needs to be. As technology gets better and cheaper it's easier to "add more" LEDs. Now, there is a point where there can be "too many" and that is probably the balance that they take into consideration during development.

Sony and Samsung didn't divulge how many LED's they have but I do know that Sony and the lone Sharp panel both use RGB LED lights rather than the cheaper white LED's. I'm not sure about the Sharp but the Sony used 2 green, 1 blue and 1 red LED. in each cluster and then they is put into zones. That is why the XBR 8 has unmatched flesh tones.

LG has stated they have 240 zones and almost 3,000 LED lights and yes this is double than the amount on last years LH90. Why, probably because of halo effect and better grey scale uniformity. But of course who really know why.
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post #186 of 4726 Old 06-22-2009, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by flyers View Post

I don't really know if all the LED's in the backpanel are all the same wattage or size, however, I would make the assumption that they are the same size wattage and color temp and only because there would be "hot spots" and a very non-uniform screen if they varied. I believe the "older" sets had few more likely because the more LED's you have the more complex the hardware and software needs to be. As technology gets better and cheaper it's easier to "add more" LEDs. Now, there is a point where there can be "too many" and that is probably the balance that they take into consideration during development.

Sony and Samsung didn't divulge how many LED's they have but I do know that Sony and the lone Sharp panel both use RGB LED lights rather than the cheaper white LED's. I'm not sure about the Sharp but the Sony used 2 green, 1 blue and 1 red LED. in each cluster and then they is put into zones. That is why the XBR 8 has unmatched flesh tones.

LG has stated they have 240 zones and almost 3,000 LED lights and yes this is double than the amount on last years LH90. Why, probably because of halo effect and better grey scale uniformity. But of course who really know why.

My take:

More dimming zones (accurately controlled by software!) = potentially smaller halos (if controlled intelligently) and potentially thinner sets (the gap between the LED and the panel doesn't need to be as large)
I believe the latter is the biggest advantage in the market and the companies will make sure that their new sets are thin as hell!

More LEDs = uniform picture (overlapping light cones of the LEDs) but higher wattage (this is why the Sony XBR8 uses more power than the Samsung A950, but still much less than a CCFL-LCD of the same size)

Now it gets more theoretical:

RGB-LEDs (regardless of the dimming capability) = potentially wider color gamut meaning "truer", "richer" colors (sadly no source material really makes use of that ATM). There are some potential PC applications (notebooks & monitors with RGB backlight are out now) but AFAIK nobody supplies color profiles for TVs...

RGB-LEDs used as a white light source (no RGB dimming) = "better" white than pseudo-white LEDs, easier to tune with the color filter (the XBR8 is better out of the box) and longer life (when a white LED ages all colors are affected...)

RGB-LEDs used as RGB local dimming (only the Sharp XS1 at this time, *not* the XBR8) = Potentially better colors in dark areas, potentially even better colors - according to some reviews.
However, all reviews I have seen are from december 2008, january 2009 and they apparently tested a (pre/early-)release model of the XS1 which had a lot of bugs and/or missing features (no 100/120 Hz mode).
These reviews also critized some aspects about the picture and said that it is a bitch to calibrate (apparently the colored light of the BLU is difficult to tune with the color filter of the panel and the software/user interface isn't very helpful).

That being said I see a huge potential in this until OLED becomes the standard.

bye
Benny42

bye
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post #187 of 4726 Old 06-22-2009, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

My take:

More dimming zones (accurately controlled by software!) = potentially smaller halos (if controlled intelligently) and potentially thinner sets (the gap between the LED and the panel doesn't need to be as large)
I believe the latter is the biggest advantage in the market and the companies will make sure that their new sets are thin as hell!

More LEDs = uniform picture (overlapping light cones of the LEDs) but higher wattage (this is why the Sony XBR8 uses more power than the Samsung A950, but still much less than a CCFL-LCD of the same size)

Now it gets more theoretical:

RGB-LEDs (regardless of the dimming capability) = potentially wider color gamut meaning "truer", "richer" colors (sadly no source material really makes use of that ATM). There are some potential PC applications (notebooks & monitors with RGB backlight are out now) but AFAIK nobody supplies color profiles for TVs...

RGB-LEDs used as a white light source (no RGB dimming) = "better" white than pseudo-white LEDs, easier to tune with the color filter (the XBR8 is better out of the box) and longer life (when a white LED ages all colors are affected...)

RGB-LEDs used as RGB local dimming (only the Sharp XS1 at this time, *not* the XBR8) = Potentially better colors in dark areas, potentially even better colors - according to some reviews.
However, all reviews I have seen are from december 2008, january 2009 and they apparently tested a (pre/early-)release model of the XS1 which had a lot of bugs and/or missing features (no 100/120 Hz mode).
These reviews also critized some aspects about the picture and said that it is a bitch to calibrate (apparently the colored light of the BLU is difficult to tune with the color filter of the panel and the software/user interface isn't very helpful).

That being said I see a huge potential in this until OLED becomes the standard.

bye
Benny42

Good insight Benny. My local A/V store has two of the Sharp XS1's, the 65 and 52 or 46, whatever the smaller size is and they are sexy looking tv's with a very nice chassis. oh, and the picture looks like crap! They store had the sets professionally calibrated because it has such a ridiculous pricetag. Funny thing is they thought the the guy that did the calibration didn't do it correctly because the picture still wasn't very good so they called another calibrator to come in and recalibrate them and they still looked terrible.

It's amazing all that technology and nice TV and yet they don't take the time to do it right. And on top of all that they charge $15K for the small one and $20 for the 65in. Crazy! Of course these are discounted quite a bit, but who would want one.

Anyway, sorry for the Sharp rant. I think RGB LED is the way to go be white LED's are easier to implement. Too bad.
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post #188 of 4726 Old 06-23-2009, 10:01 AM
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See Flyers you validate my prior comments: These sets according to you still look like crap with their super high price and all of their manufacturer specs. It really comes down not to what the manufacturer claims but how the picture actually looks. It could have two purple leds and be fine if it produced the kind of picture you and I want. Who really cares how they got there--if the picture displayed causes your jaw to drop and the price is affordable--its a winner
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post #189 of 4726 Old 06-23-2009, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltgary View Post

See Flyers you validate my prior comments: These sets according to you still look like crap with their super high price and all of their manufacturer specs. It really comes down not to what the manufacturer claims but how the picture actually looks. It could have two purple leds and be fine if it produced the kind of picture you and I want. Who really cares how they got there--if the picture displayed causes your jaw to drop and the price is affordable--its a winner

Itgary, I don't know what of your points I am validating but I do agree with what you're saying just not sure what it has to do with the LH90. All I've said is that the LH90 has some great specs, which to me is a great starting point for this to be a great TV. It will come down to software implementation.

To be clear, I've never said any negative comments on the LH90. I just haven't heard any great comments from any of the owners so far.
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post #190 of 4726 Old 06-23-2009, 03:38 PM
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Flyers I meant your comments about the Sharp which although being very advanced and costly still has a crappy picture. My comments have been consistent--it is the picture that counts regardless of what make/model/series. If the picture is what we want I really dont care how the maker got there. On the other hand if the picture isnt producing the image we expect under the conditions we set forth who cares what it costs/what features it has/and what technology is driving it. Maybe none of the top brands can really produce a pleasing picture under all conditions. Maybe the technology just isnt quite there yet. Like while LCD has almost caught plasma the blacks of the best plasma still beat the best of the LCD's(or so I'm told). I certainly am not a early adopter having waited until Jan of this year for my first HD set. In my case I felt I could live with the picture as now produced by the led sets. Two or three years ago a LCD set would not have satisfied me. Then again maybe I should have waited another year to see what comes forth.
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post #191 of 4726 Old 06-23-2009, 04:33 PM
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I agree and I also believe that the better plasmas are much better than any LCD, BUT before anyone starts cussing me, I will say that it depends on a lot of factors which will work best for you. I own both and while I prefer plasma I want an LCD for my living room due to a lot of conditions I have that plasma might not fair as well.

OLED = The Future

Once that becomes widely available in all sizes LCD (CCFL and LED) and plasma will go the way of the dinasour.
It will be cheaper to manufacture
Give blacks levels/color that you've never seen before.
And paper thin to easily hand on any wall.
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post #192 of 4726 Old 06-24-2009, 04:52 AM
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Sony and Samsung didn't divulge how many LED's they have but I do know that Sony and the lone Sharp panel both use RGB LED lights rather than the cheaper white LED's. I'm not sure about the Sharp but the Sony used 2 green, 1 blue and 1 red LED. in each cluster and then they is put into zones. That is why the XBR 8 has unmatched flesh tones.

Sony XBR8/X4500 has 72 zones (each zone 4x 4 LEDs - 2 green, 1 red, 1 blue) for 46" and 100 zones for 55".
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post #193 of 4726 Old 06-24-2009, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by flyers View Post

I am really starting to consider this set, especially a 55 LD at that price point. I wonder how it compares to the Sammy edge lit 8000. I know LD is technically better, but the 8000 is one nice TV but too pricey.

How does the LG handle SD content?

Please post some pictures soon.

The 55B8000 and the 55LH90 both will be in the tv shootout this weekend. It may worth check it out.
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post #194 of 4726 Old 06-24-2009, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post

Sony XBR8/X4500 has 72 zones (each zone 4x 4 LEDs - 2 green, 1 red, 1 blue) for 46" and 100 zones for 55".

Interesting! Where did you get these numbers?
While I would agree that the 46" has less zones than the 55" - the sets use the same LED-modules, AFAIK - I find the numbers somewhat puzzling.
How do 72 zones translate to horizontal and vertical dimensions? 9 x 8 doesn't really fit and 12 x 6 isn't necessarily better for the 16:9 format either.
And how would 100 zones fit the 55"? 96 zones could be 12 x 8...

bye
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bye
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post #195 of 4726 Old 06-24-2009, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SoSo View Post

The 55B8000 and the 55LH90 both will be in the tv shootout this weekend. It may worth check it out.

SoSo, thanks, I am well aware of the shoot-out and have been waiting patiently for this weekend. Robert will also be testing the Toshiba SV670 local dimming LED set as well.
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post #196 of 4726 Old 06-24-2009, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

Interesting! Where did you get these numbers?
While I would agree that the 46" has less zones than the 55" - the sets use the same LED-modules, AFAIK - I find the numbers somewhat puzzling.
How do 72 zones translate to horizontal and vertical dimensions? 9 x 8 doesn't really fit and 12 x 6 isn't necessarily better for the 16:9 format either.
And how would 100 zones fit the 55"? 96 zones could be 12 x 8...

bye
Benny42

I thought that I read somewhere a long time ago how many zones the XBR8 and Sammy 950 had but I don't believe that it was officially stated from Sony or Samsung.

Last years LG LG90 had 128 zones in the 47" so I would presume that the 950 and XBR8 are somewhere around that number.
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post #197 of 4726 Old 06-24-2009, 09:34 AM
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I took a couple photos today, but they were all slightly out of focus( no flash).
I'll try it again with a tripod, but I'm not too sure that will work either.
The camera is a Kodak 7 MP point and shoot. I think it may take a GOOD SLR to capture an accrate photo of the TV.

-Some people play hard to get, I play hard to want.
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post #198 of 4726 Old 06-24-2009, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post

I took a couple photos today, but they were all slightly out of focus( no flash).
I'll try it again with a tripod, but I'm not too sure that will work either.
The camera is a Kodak 7 MP point and shoot. I think it may take a GOOD SLR to capture an accrate photo of the TV.

A point and shoot would work just fine, a tripod will do wonders. And no flash a you have done.
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post #199 of 4726 Old 06-25-2009, 01:12 AM
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Interesting! Where did you get these numbers?
While I would agree that the 46" has less zones than the 55" - the sets use the same LED-modules, AFAIK - I find the numbers somewhat puzzling.
How do 72 zones translate to horizontal and vertical dimensions? 9 x 8 doesn't really fit and 12 x 6 isn't necessarily better for the 16:9 format either.
And how would 100 zones fit the 55"? 96 zones could be 12 x 8...

From a officially paper by Sony.
The 55" has 1600 LED´s! One dimming zone has 16 LED´s = 4 x a group of 4 LED´s (2 x G, 1 x R, 1 x B). 4 x 4 = 16
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post #200 of 4726 Old 06-25-2009, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post

From a officially paper by Sony.
The 55" has 1600 LED´s! One dimming zone has 16 LED´s = 4 x a group of 4 LED´s (2 x G, 1 x R, 1 x B). 4 x 4 = 16

Thanks! But IMHO there is a difference between the physical organization of the LEDs behind the panel and the way it is controlled. My theory is that there is more to the algorithm than the "simple" x-y matrix like they demonstrate in their training video posted several weeks ago.

I base this on my observations on my 46X4500 when a single pixel is lit in one of the corners that not only the expected zone right in the corner itself is lit but also the two adjacent zones to the right/left and above/below it (depending on the corner). One can see these halos quite well under the right lighting conditions but it's too low for my camera to pick this up.

I hope that the newer sets not only have more dimming zones but also improved panels to better mask the halos (though I doubt the latter).

bye
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bye
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post #201 of 4726 Old 06-26-2009, 07:35 PM
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I finally had my 55LH90 delivered this afternoon. First, a word of warning: I am currently in the process of moving, and as such, do not have my digital camera handy (it's packed away somewhere), nor did I have much time to spend with the TV today (or likely much of this coming weekend).

The manual is here...

I purchased from Best Buy for list price minus a coupon that has been floating around online for a month or so. Did not find any in the stores to take a look at first, so I figured why not -- I can return it

I don't really have any video sources to hook up yet (other than an antenna, but there wasn't much on in HD when I did the channel scan and there are a lot of subchannels here). The television itself (in my opinion) looks fabulous -- even though it is not one of the tiny bezel Sammy's).

Other than that, I'll post photos (when I find the camera) and more thoughts when I have a chance to play with the television. Also looking forward to the shootout this weekend.
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post #202 of 4726 Old 06-27-2009, 06:25 AM
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doppler1, Did you take a look at the 55LH55?

I am about to buy my first TV in 13 years. Want to get it right.

I am thinking of either the 55LH55 or the 55LH90. Which one??
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post #203 of 4726 Old 06-27-2009, 05:11 PM
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doppler1, Did you take a look at the 55LH55?

I am about to buy my first TV in 13 years. Want to get it right.

I am thinking of either the 55LH55 or the 55LH90. Which one??

I considered almost everything

I never saw the 55LH55 next to the 55LH90 or anything (actually, I never saw the LH90 at all ), so I couldn't do a side-by-side comparison. I really wanted to give the LED back light a shot, so I decided to go with the 90 -- the price difference isn't that great.

I still can't really comment on the picture of the 90 -- I hardly had time to turn the television set on today (just a bit for the cable installation).

They are probably both fantastic televisions though -- good luck making up your mind!
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post #204 of 4726 Old 06-28-2009, 12:53 PM
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Does anyone know any Canadian retailers that are selling this TV? Shipping from U.S. is just too much and would cause warranty issues if anything ever happened.

I'm trying to find 55LH90 in Canada.
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post #205 of 4726 Old 06-28-2009, 08:25 PM
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so the LG held its own in the shootout...good, another choice
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post #206 of 4726 Old 06-28-2009, 08:32 PM
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...that has to, at the least, make it one of the best matte screen options going
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post #207 of 4726 Old 06-28-2009, 08:41 PM
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i had a hard time make heads or tails of the shootout live feed. no idea why they chose to test a xbr9 over a xbr8? of what was on test, these guys indicate the lh90 did well -
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Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper View Post

Basically, the Tosh did average.
D-Nice said the LG came in a close fourth overall for him, and that was right behind the Samsung plasma. His calibration report for the LG reflects this in its accuracy for colors and high contrast ratio.

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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Yeah, the Toshiba didn't do so well. I think for LCD, it would go LG -> Samsung -> Toshiba -> Sony. For Plasma, Pioneer -> Panasonic -> Samsung seemed pretty close) -> LG.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...151605&page=27
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post #208 of 4726 Old 06-28-2009, 08:41 PM
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Anyone know when Best Buy Magnolia stores are going to get this in stock?
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post #209 of 4726 Old 06-28-2009, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcp View Post

i had a hard time make heads or tails of the shootout live feed. no idea why they chose to test a xbr9 over a xbr8? of what was on test, these guys indicate the lh90 did well -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...151605&page=27

The LG had very good results after calibration, best of the LCD's by quite a bit. D-Nice rated the LG HL90 third best TV there. His overall ranking was:
1. Pioneer KRP-500M
2. Samsung PN50B860
3. LG 55LH90
4. Panasonic TCP50V10
5. Samsung LN55B8000
6. Toshiba SV55670U
7. LG 50PS60
8. Sony KDL-52XBR9
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post #210 of 4726 Old 06-28-2009, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptscon View Post

Shipping from U.S. is just too much and would cause warranty issues if anything ever happened.

shipping is about $150 extra to get to canada locations.
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