KDL-XBR4 Half the Screen Dark with Slow Pixel Refresh – All inputs - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 158 Old 08-22-2009, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi - first time poster, long time lurker. I have a problem with my XBR4 that I hope someone can give me some direction on.

Background info:
I've owned a Sony XBR4 for a little under 2 years now it's performed flawlessly - that is until recently. About month or two ago, it began exhibiting similar issue as described in these two threads:

avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16243477&postcount=11085

avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16203884&postcount=11077
(i woudl make these actual links, but becuse this is my first post, the system won;t let me post URLS )

Problem 1
Basically the left half of the screen looks darkened with a reddish tint, and the pixels in the dark area seem to refresh really-really slowly, creating an ultra smearing effect.
(See attached photo)
At first when this problem began, it could quickly be fixed by simply holding on to the upper left and right corners of the TV and lightly flexing the bezel. This would cause the picture to come back and would only need to be done maybe once a day.

Now - the TV is not longer responding this is and the picture is permanently darkened on the left side.

Problem 2
the second issue is that (obviously) it's out of warranty, so I need to get it fixed. I've had a tech out to look at it, and all he could tell me (after looking at for less than 5 minutes) is that he needed to take it back to his shop and then he could tell me how much and how long it would take to fix it. I decided to not send it with the tech, since, according to him, the fix would likely be a new panel. The cost of replacing the Panel is not worth fixing

Solutions???
Well, I'm going to just get a new TV later today (we needed a slightly larger one anyway ), but I want to try and salvage this one myself - if possible. I just need a little direction. After ready a tone of stuff on these boards, I think my best bet might be to just replace each of boards one at a time in hopes the issue lies within of o these.

My questions are:

1 - Should I even attempt this, or would it be an exercise in fruition?

2 - if you thinks it's possible it is one of the boards, in which order I should start?
The second photo attached is the TV with the back housing pulled off and the various boards are listed A-B-C-D-E-F-G

I know what some of the boards are, but some I don't:

A- DF2
B - GF1
C - ??
D - DF3
E - ??
F - ??
G - ??


Any help would be greatly appreciated.
LL
LL
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post #2 of 158 Old 08-22-2009, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Also - I forgot to mention that with the back panel off and the TV turned on, all the baclklights seem to be on, so i don't thnk it's a back light specific issue.
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post #3 of 158 Old 08-22-2009, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlyTono View Post



I know what some of the boards are, but some I don't:

A- DF2
B - GF1
C - ??
D - DF3
E - ??
F - ??
G - ??


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

A & D seem to be power supplies for the inverters probably located inside those 2 black plastic panels on each side of the TV
B - power supply for the rest of the PCB's
C - pixel driver PCB (LCD panel driver PCB)
G - inputs / outputs & tuner
E & F are AV processing PCB's

tricky fault... I can not see how the pixel driver board feeds matrix signals to LCD panel. I would clean the contacts here first... and at the LCD panel end as well.

next...???? not an easy one... could be the AV processing boards... or pixel driver PCB.... or panel...


Boky
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post #4 of 158 Old 08-22-2009, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky View Post

A & D seem to be power supplies for the

tricky fault... I can not see how the pixel driver board feeds matrix signals to LCD panel. I would clean the contacts here first... and at the LCD panel end as well.

Ya i don't see anythhing like that either. I don't know alot about it, but i would guess it would look like a ribbon cable of some sort.

I'll dig a little deeper while I have it on the work bench. I'll also try cleaning any contact I can see - just for good measure

any thoughts on which board I should start with in terms of replacement?
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post #5 of 158 Old 08-23-2009, 08:47 AM
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Post the full model number.

Start with replacing Tcon board (C) (about $100).
Then FBx board (E) (about $400).
Note that on some models you cannot just replace the Tcon or FBx by itself, they must be replaced as a pair.

If neither of those boards fix, then the panel is bad. Note that on some models when replacing the panel you have to also replace the Tcon and FBx boards together.

My gut feeling is that you have a bad panel.
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post #6 of 158 Old 08-24-2009, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammerdwn View Post

Post the full model number.

Start with replacing Tcon board (C) (about $100).
Then FBx board (E) (about $400).
Note that on some models you cannot just replace the Tcon or FBx by itself, they must be replaced as a pair.

If neither of those boards fix, then the panel is bad. Note that on some models when replacing the panel you have to also replace the Tcon and FBx boards together.

Here's the model info from the back of the TV:

Model: KDL-46xBR4
MFG: December 2007

once I get the covers off of the TCon and FBx boards, is it possible there may be some visual evidence that the board are have gone bad that i can look for? Or, is there some sort of test I can run on them? I know generally with PCB boards, there usually is not any visual evidence, but i figures Id ask just in case.

Also - what are the factors than can contribute to these PCB boards going bad? is it just bad luck, or is there something else that can be done to help protect against this sort of failure other than a good AV rated surge protector (which this TV was connected to)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammerdwn View Post

My gut feeling is that you have a bad panel.

That's kind of what I'm thinking as well, but for a TV that looked as good as this one did, it may be worth a try to salvage it.

Thanks for the info!
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post #7 of 158 Old 08-24-2009, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammerdwn View Post

Post the full model number.
Start with replacing Tcon board (C) (about $100).
Then FBx board (E) (about $400).
Note that on some models you cannot just replace the Tcon or FBx by itself, they must be replaced as a pair.

I was able to find a site that seems to have the parts for this tv AND actually has photos of each of the parts.

http://www.discount-merchant.com/Sea...rch=KDL-46XBR4

THe only thing i dont see is the FBx board (E). Maybe it's there and I just don't know what it looks like
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post #8 of 158 Old 08-24-2009, 04:07 PM
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They are calling it DIGITAL VIDEO board, it's the one with the hdmi ports...
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post #9 of 158 Old 08-25-2009, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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found it...

I'm going to give this a try in the next week or two and cross my fingers that it works. I'll post up the results.

Thanks for your help....
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post #10 of 158 Old 08-29-2009, 09:41 AM
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Hey, dont want to hijack your post, but it seems I am having the exact same issues as you. Wondering if you've gotten lucky with replacing any parts?

The tv will work for about 30- 45 minutes or so, when its first turned on, but then the left side of the screen becomes dark reddish (always has the slow pixel response). I noticed that If I turn the tv off, and then turn it back on, it will be fine, but this time only for about 5 minutes. Guess has something to do with the heating up of the components making it go out like this.
Just wondering if you solved your issue yet because it seems we are in the same boat lol.
Thanks in advance
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post #11 of 158 Old 08-29-2009, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't solve it yet - i have the tv mostly pulled apart and will be ordering the parts next week. I'm going with hammerdwn's advise on the parts to start with.

On a side note - my issue started the exact same way yours did. It took about 2 to 3 months before it completely deteriorated.
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post #12 of 158 Old 08-29-2009, 03:24 PM
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my advise to both is - get the can of freeze spray. Remove the back cover and wait for the problem to start happening. Then, spray the freeze spray over one board at the time - even if it has metal "mash" on top of it. If the picture snaps-in normal...you know which PCB to replace !!!

The problem is related to one or more parts suffering thermal-run out..... component(s) overheat and start working outside of their normal operating range. If you cool the component down, it will start operating normally for a while.. until it overheats again. This is why the TV works okay for longer if it was completely cooled down.

It would be good to remove metal mesh covers and then use freeze spray, however, if that is too difficult (or if that means the whole PCB will fall-off), spray thru the wholes... just make sure some of that stuff reaches the PCB components.

Only one PCB at the time, and be patient… give it 10 sec for change in temp to take effect, and skip to next PCB slowly – don’t rush. If you notice even slight improvement – you found the faulty PCB / module.

If you decide that this is something you can do yourself…..

…….you will be working with LIVE components / PCB’s. This voltage can KILL YOU!!!!

You’ve been WARNED….!!!!!!


Boky
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post #13 of 158 Old 08-30-2009, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky View Post

my advise to both is - get the can of freeze spray. Remove the back cover and wait for the problem to start happening. Then, spray the freeze spray over one board at the time - even if it has metal "mash" on top of it. If the picture snaps-in normal...you know which PCB to replace !!!

The problem is related to one or more parts suffering thermal-run out..... component(s) overheat and start working outside of their normal operating range. If you cool the component down, it will start operating normally for a while.. until it overheats again. This is why the TV works okay for longer if it was completely cooled down.

It would be good to remove metal mesh covers and then use freeze spray, however, if that is too difficult (or if that means the whole PCB will fall-off), spray thru the wholes... just make sure some of that stuff reaches the PCB components.

Only one PCB at the time, and be patient… give it 10 sec for change in temp to take effect, and skip to next PCB slowly – don’t rush. If you notice even slight improvement – you found the faulty PCB / module.

Great advise. I have not ordered the parts yet, so I think I'll try this first.

When sprying the Freeze spray on the PCBs, should I be trying to cover the entire board i've targeted, or just hiiting the tops of of the various chips on the board?

Also, would you comfirm this is the type of product I'm looking for?
FREEZE SPRAY, 10 OZ CAN

Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky View Post

If you decide that this is something you can do yourself…..

…….you will be working with LIVE components / PCB’s. This voltage can KILL YOU!!!!

You’ve been WARNED….!!!!!!

I appreciate the warning - It can sometimes be easy to forget that these things are pushing some serious power.

Thanks...
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post #14 of 158 Old 08-31-2009, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlyTono View Post

Great advise. I have not ordered the parts yet, so I think I'll try this first.

When sprying the Freeze spray on the PCBs, should I be trying to cover the entire board i've targeted, or just hiiting the tops of of the various chips on the board?

Also, would you comfirm this is the type of product I'm looking for?
FREEZE SPRAY, 10 OZ CAN



I appreciate the warning - It can sometimes be easy to forget that these things are pushing some serious power.

Thanks...

That spray will do just fine.

Area you should spar ONE AT THE TIME:

1. Voltage regulators' area (if you can tell voltage regulators from other IC's)

2. Large surface mount IC's

If this does not produce any result, try to spray on top of a whole board to locate the board that is faulty.

If you choose to spray one component (or functional group of components) one at the time, you may be able to find regulator or capacitor / resistor that is faulty, which can cut the cost of repair to couple of dollars (if you know how to replace these components)

Otherwise, just spray on top of one PCB at the time... and replace the whole faulty PCB...


Good luck

Boky
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post #15 of 158 Old 09-07-2009, 06:45 PM
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Just a quick update on my issue.

Somehow, the issue kind of fixed it self sort-of. lol Atleast for now, it will by me time until I can get it properly fixed.

When you first turn the tv on, it works good for about 10minutes besides the slow pixel response on the left side. After that, it starts turning dark, and then back to normal every couple of second for a second. Then, after about 5 minutes of that, its back to normal picture with just the slow pixel response on the left side.

The pixel response is not that bad, can get bad on fast action sports (I have a 57" for that anyway lol)
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post #16 of 158 Old 09-08-2009, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilDiesel View Post

Just a quick update on my issue.

Somehow, the issue kind of fixed it self sort-of. lol Atleast for now, it will by me time until I can get it properly fixed.

When you first turn the tv on, it works good for about 10minutes besides the slow pixel response on the left side. After that, it starts turning dark, and then back to normal every couple of second for a second. Then, after about 5 minutes of that, its back to normal picture with just the slow pixel response on the left side.

The pixel response is not that bad, can get bad on fast action sports (I have a 57" for that anyway lol)

Hopefully it will maintain like that - but I have to warn you - this is exactly how mine went.

I've tried the freeze spray and so far no luck. Although, there's one board I can't full get to and one that I can only partially get to without basically taking the entire TV apart.

Luckily I was able to get my hands on a Service manual for this TV, so I have all the diagrams, part numbers, and exploded views which should make this much easier.

The PCB boards I'm talking about are labeled E (pixel driver PCB or FB1) and the PCB board JUST ABOVE what I have labeled as C (the service manual calls it UB1) on the image I original posted which I believe is the T-Con.

So to try and keep costs down, I'm going to attempt to replace just one board at a time - my only problem is trying to decide which board to start with.

My guess would be that it would probably be a good idea to start with either E, C or the T-CON board since those boards all deal with the actual video source that gets sent to the panel while the rest of the boards in general, deal with either gathering input, or providing power

I'll try and remember to take some more photos as I go, since some of this is pretty tricky - especially getting to the T-CON board.
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post #17 of 158 Old 09-10-2009, 05:12 AM
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Problems with right side of screen as described in earlier post (right side looking at screen) TV out of warranty by 3 months. Repair tech said needed a new flat panel and board. cost was about 1700 for parts. Called Sony!(239-768-7646) told them of the problems they have sent a replacement xbr9 (not as good as the xbr4) for a cost of 400 dollars What do you think?
Thanks
David
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post #18 of 158 Old 09-11-2009, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conar2 View Post

Problems with right side of screen as described in earlier post (right side looking at screen) TV out of warranty by 3 months. Repair tech said needed a new flat panel and board. cost was about 1700 for parts. Called Sony!(239-768-7646) told them of the problems they have sent a replacement xbr9 (not as good as the xbr4) for a cost of 400 dollars What do you think?
Thanks
David

The parts cost you where quoted seems inline with what i was originaly quoted to fix the TV. Add in labor, and I was right around 2200 bucks - which is about what paid for the TV brand new

if sony offered to send a new TV for 400 bucks, then i would say that's a good deal. I haven't seen the XBR9s so i can't draw any comparisons between the XBR4 and XBR9s.

Ive since replaced my TV with a new one, so I'm just taking my time to attempt a DYI fix on my XBR4. if it works (or doesn't work) I'll post up the results. Right now the TV is mostly in peices sitting on my work bench :-)
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post #19 of 158 Old 09-12-2009, 12:50 PM
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this is what mine is doing 52 in xbr4 19 months old.

problem happens when it heats up after about 15-30 minutes
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post #20 of 158 Old 09-23-2009, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Just an update for anyone following this thread - I was able to fix the TV

It's a pretty involved process but certainly doable. The best part is, if done right - it should literally only cost you a few bucks and some of you time.

I took a bunch of photos of the process and will post it here in the next few days.

Stay tuned!
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post #21 of 158 Old 09-23-2009, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlyTono View Post

Basically the left half of the screen looks darkened with a reddish tint, and the pixels in the dark area seem to refresh really-really slowly, creating an ultra smearing effect.
(See attached photo)
At first when this problem began, it could quickly be fixed by simply holding on to the upper left and right corners of the TV and lightly flexing the bezel. This would cause the picture to come back and would only need to be done maybe once a day.

I'm going to save you a lot of trouble here. First of all, the TCON board is not available for this model. It's only available for the 32" model. The fact that you get a change when you flex the panel is a clear inidcator that you have a tab bond issue on the side of the panel where the gate drivers are. Sorry to be the bringer of bad news but you need to replace the LCD panel. I know this is a pretty set but take the credit and get a new television.

Those who think they know everything annoy those of us who do.
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post #22 of 158 Old 09-24-2009, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by display veteran View Post

I'm going to save you a lot of trouble here. First of all, the TCON board is not available for this model. It's only available for the 32" model. The fact that you get a change when you flex the panel is a clear inidcator that you have a tab bond issue on the side of the panel where the gate drivers are. Sorry to be the bringer of bad news but you need to replace the LCD panel. I know this is a pretty set but take the credit and get a new television.

Your are correct, and incorrect -the TV appears to be fixed, and it was a tab bond issue. But instead replacing the LCD Panel (a $1,500 - $2,000 repare job) or simply throwing the TV in the trash, i was able to correct the issue.

I can't say how long the fix last before it wears out again - it could be days, weeks, years - who knows. What i do know is it has been running for about 4-5 hours now with no visble PQ issues.

I have photos and I'll post up the process over the over the weeekend.


I'v had it runing for a few hours and so far so good.
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post #23 of 158 Old 09-24-2009, 09:08 PM
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If you have found a way to re-bond the tabs without using a 1.5 million dollar tab bonding machine please share. I'm not trying to be funny here. If there is a way to do it I would like to know. You can bang on the edge of an LCD panel and sometimes make the tab re-connect (or make more open connections in the process) but I am sure that it will come back.

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post #24 of 158 Old 09-25-2009, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by display veteran View Post

If you have found a way to re-bond the tabs without using a 1.5 million dollar tab bonding machine please share. I'm not trying to be funny here. If there is a way to do it I would like to know. You can bang on the edge of an LCD panel and sometimes make the tab re-connect (or make more open connections in the process) but I am sure that it will come back.

Ya I know - I was skeptical as well.

Basically the fix involves using some "bumpons" along the top and edges of the tabs that have gone bad which puts some slight pressure on them. The trick is getting them in the right positions so that they manipulate the tab in just the right way and allow the connections to be re-made.

It may not be a perfect solution, but so far the TV I fixed is holding strong and it certainly beats trashing the TV.

I'll try and get the photos posted later today
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post #25 of 158 Old 09-25-2009, 07:40 AM
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I have done this on some PDPs with similar issues, usually Hitachi panels that have a line in the pix. It is at best a temporary fix in most cases, but not a bad way to get a little more use out of the panel and be sure about the diagnosis.

Have you contacted Sony Consumer Relations to ask if they would provide some kind of accomodation on a failure like this?

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #26 of 158 Old 09-25-2009, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Have you contacted Sony Consumer Relations to ask if they would provide some kind of accomodation on a failure like this?

ya i tried. in my case they wouldn't help me - i was about a year out of warranty on the TV. Butto be honest, i didn't really push the issue with them very hard.

I just ended up getting a new TV (46" Samsung LED 8000 Series) to replace this one , and then spent some time trying to fix the broken TV. I don't know how long it will hold, but so far so good.

I'm alomst done editing the photos I took for clarity, so once thats done I'll post them up for those who want to attempt this fix themselve.
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post #27 of 158 Old 10-01-2009, 12:10 AM
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Tab bonding is a very interesting process. When I get the time I will try to post how this is done.

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post #28 of 158 Old 10-27-2009, 02:35 PM
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I am waiting for the pictures, could not see your original picture that you posted of the open back of the panel.
My TV was also made 12/07 and started going bad July 09, am now trying to negotiate with Sony.
But I don't want to trash the TV so I am extremely interested in seeing your pictures and finding out about how to deal with the tab bond issue.
It is not clear when you talk about it what part you are talking about.
And a question to you and Display veteran is: since you opened the back of the panel, what part is the T-con board. It must have a part number.
Again, looking forward to the pictures and more comments from both of you.
Thanks.
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post #29 of 158 Old 10-28-2009, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry it's taken so long for me to get these image posted – I’ve been absolutely slammed with my work and have not had time to get this posted up. So anyway – here goes:

It should only take about an afternoon of your time and 4-5 bucks worth of parts you can get at your local hardware store.

OK… a few disclaimers and important things to consider:

1) A warning that I’ve read many times on these boards
from the people who do this stuff for a living and I think is important to repeat:
“You will be working with LIVE components / PCB’s. This voltage can KILL YOU!!!!”

2) If you decide to attempt this yourself, you must be OK with the fact that you run the risk of damaging your (already broken) TV beyond repair.


This fix involves putting light pressure on the Tab Bonds that run along the top of the LCD panel with a series of Bumpons (or rubber bumpers). I have a series of photos below that you can use as a visual aid. The photos only cover the portion of this fix after you have removed all the covers. There are a ton of screens to remove to get down the LCD panel – but it’s pretty straight forward. So take your time and keep track of the screws and where they go.


PQ Issues:




Removing the metal frame from the LCD Panel




The LCD Tab bonds exposed




Testing the Tab Bonds




Prepping the Bumpons




Bumpon Placement
Depending on which Tab is bad your placement may differ




Once you have your bumpons placed put the LCD frame back on the LCD panel and test the TV - use the same method as shown in the first pic. if the picture looks good, then let it run for an hour or so just to make sure it holds. If it still has the issue, then remove the frame and try again - it may take a couple of tries to get it just right.

Once you’re satisfied - put the whole thing back together and enjoy your TV. The fix may last forever, or it may last for a few days. Mine has been running strong for over a month with near constant use.

UPDATE 12-8-09: NipRing Made this great video to help others who want to give this a shot. it's a great overview of the process and should be quit helpful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NipRing View Post

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post #30 of 158 Old 10-28-2009, 09:29 AM
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Absolutely magnificent post, OnlyTono!

Thx!

bye
Benny

bye
Benny
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