Sharp XS1, the forgotten LCD, what is the final verdict? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 116 Old 11-12-2009, 03:06 AM
Senior Member
 
happy hopping's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Malibu, CA, USA
Posts: 290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flip14 View Post

-Warped frame on *every* 65" model I checked

I am not verse on this term, what's Warped Frame?
happy hopping is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 116 Old 11-12-2009, 03:11 AM
Senior Member
 
happy hopping's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Malibu, CA, USA
Posts: 290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpak2005 View Post

The $3000 Sharp 65e77um mentioned above is NOT LED backlit, its not even edge lit, its CCFL. .


I assume the LC-C6577UM is the same story? See I don't have the manual on the e77um, so there is no way for me to compare.

The other thing: Forget 65" for a moment, but who else has LED LCD in the 60" or higher range? Because I don't have the $$ for the 65" XS1 today, but I am concern that by the time I have the $$, there is no XS1 for me to buy
happy hopping is offline  
post #93 of 116 Old 11-12-2009, 04:21 AM
Senior Member
 
dpak2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post

I assume the LC-C6577UM is the same story? See I don't have the manual on the e77um, so there is no way for me to compare.

The other thing: Forget 65" for a moment, but who else has LED LCD in the 60" or higher range? Because I don't have the $$ for the 65" XS1 today, but I am concern that by the time I have the $$, there is no XS1 for me to buy

Those 2 are virtually identical, the C65 being the price club version. Other current LED lit TVs over 60" now? There are none, this is the only game in town. BUT there will be a whole slew of new ones coming at the end of this year and on to next year. The Sharp 10th gen plant is extremely economical at the 60" size, so expect many Sharp and Sony 60" LED edgelit and backlit models shortly. And they will be a lot cheaper.

I wanted to add something so people don't misconstrue my point. The 65E77UM is a fabulous set and a tremendous buy with a street price of $2500 or so. Amazing especially when even a 65" CCFL used to be 10 Grand minimum. My basic guide to you in shopping for LCDs is the following: BUY SIZE FIRST. I am telling you despite all the talk in these forums of blacks and contrast ratios and picture quality, the impact of a 65" (even CCFL) TV on your wall versus a 52" ia a stunning major difference. Trust me I have both. So start buying the largest size you can, while trying to find a reputable brand. Then, if you can allocate an addition $500 - $1000 or so, well worth it to get the LED version, especially if you are wall mounting. The XS1s for example are 1 to 2 inches thick versus 4.5" thich for the 65e77um. And of course the obvious LED black and contrast improvements. Eventually this will be a moot point because by nezt year virtually all LCDs will be LED lit, and then the decision will be edge lit versus local dimming.

It sounds to me like you are TV shopping. If I were you, and I needed a TV now, I would pick up the 65E77UM in a HEARTBeAT, and have no regrets or second thoughts. Even with my preference for LED lit. At its current street prices, that set is a steal for the visual impact of a 65". That said, if I could wait and didn't need one now, Id wait and see what 10th gen LED lit TVs are coming down the pike late this year. But I wouldn't compromise for a 60". Either find an awesome LED 65 inch or largesr LED lit in the future (and prepare no more than $1000 more than a comparable 65" CCFL) or buy the 65E77UM.
dpak2005 is offline  
post #94 of 116 Old 11-12-2009, 07:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
spyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post

I am not verse on this term, what's Warped Frame?

Think bezel.
spyboy is offline  
post #95 of 116 Old 11-13-2009, 02:51 PM
Senior Member
 
happy hopping's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Malibu, CA, USA
Posts: 290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
due to room size, I can only have up to 65". But I don't care about price if I have some $$, I want to get it right as my current TV has been w/ me since 1992.

So, I'll see what we have in the next few mth., and hoping the XS1 price will come down because of it, unless there is something better than the XS1 in the next few mth.

I check engadget, so far, I can't find anything upcoming
happy hopping is offline  
post #96 of 116 Old 11-14-2009, 02:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MCaugusto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BOSTON --- MA ---
Posts: 1,196
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 30
....Well, there's always the Samsung LN-T7081F, which is 70" diagonal, uses local-dimming LEDs and is currently being sold for "only" $10,000.00 !
MCaugusto is offline  
post #97 of 116 Old 11-14-2009, 05:29 AM
Senior Member
 
happy hopping's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Malibu, CA, USA
Posts: 290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
that's the same price as the 65" Xs1. But is it RGB LED LCD though? Or is it just LED LCD?
happy hopping is offline  
post #98 of 116 Old 11-14-2009, 05:58 AM
Senior Member
 
dpak2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

....Well, there's always the Samsung LN-T7081F, which is 70" diagonal, uses local-dimming LEDs and is currently being sold for "only" $10,000.00 !

That monstrosity is 5.9" thick. What the hell is the point of LEDs when it is as fat as Shrek? Compare that to the XS1 series which is 2" at its thickest point and 1" on the sides.
dpak2005 is offline  
post #99 of 116 Old 11-14-2009, 08:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
davegow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In the glorious open countryside of Eastern Ontario.
Posts: 1,686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpak2005 View Post

That monstrosity is 5.9" thick. What the hell is the point of LEDs when it is as fat as Shrek? ...

I'd quite happily take a set that thick if it meant doing a better job with light evenness, cooling etc. Thin beyond a certain point has a cost.
davegow is offline  
post #100 of 116 Old 11-14-2009, 10:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MCaugusto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BOSTON --- MA ---
Posts: 1,196
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 30
So what if the Samsung LN-T7081F is 5.9 inches thick ? I'd gladly trade up any time cosmetic thinness factor for outstanding performance, and the 52" version of the 81F series received a stellar review from Home Theater Magazine : no uneven onscreen discoloration, no backlight bleeding, ruler flat gray-scale tracking, near perfect color gamuts, excellent shadow detail and, of course, full-on/full-off contrast that varied between infinite to below 0.001 ft-L.
AFAIK, the Samsung 81F series uses local-dimming white LEDs; If only the price of one of these sets came down to a more realistic level of around $6,500.00 or so, it would be damn hard for me to ignore it any further...
MCaugusto is offline  
post #101 of 116 Old 11-14-2009, 10:21 PM
Senior Member
 
dpak2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

So what if the Samsung LN-T7081F is 5.9 inches thick ? I'd gladly trade up any time cosmetic thinness factor for outstanding performance, and the 52" version of the 81F series received a stellar review from Home Theater Magazine : no uneven onscreen discoloration, no backlight bleeding, ruler flat gray-scale tracking, near perfect color gamuts, excellent shadow detail and, of course, full-on/full-off contrast that varied between infinite to below 0.001 ft-L.
AFAIK, the Samsung 81F series uses local-dimming white LEDs; If only the price of one of these sets came down to a more realistic level of around $6,500.00 or so, it would be damn hard for me to ignore it any further...

All I'm saying is that if I'm wall mounting and not putting that thing on a stand, there's no way I'm buying something that fat, especially because its so large otherwise. And certainly not ffor that price. Hell CCFLs aren't even that thick these days, there is NO excuse for an LED backlit to be that thick. At that price range, it better not just have a good picture, but be something that wows people on your wall. Anyway there's no way anybody should be looking for anything in that outrageous price range when LED will become mainstream in the next year in all sizes, including larger ones, and without that kind of price premium.
dpak2005 is offline  
post #102 of 116 Old 11-15-2009, 07:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
spyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

So what if the Samsung LN-T7081F is 5.9 inches thick ? I'd gladly trade up any time cosmetic thinness factor for outstanding performance, and the 52" version of the 81F series received a stellar review from Home Theater Magazine : no uneven onscreen discoloration, no backlight bleeding, ruler flat gray-scale tracking, near perfect color gamuts, excellent shadow detail and, of course, full-on/full-off contrast that varied between infinite to below 0.001 ft-L.
AFAIK, the Samsung 81F series uses local-dimming white LEDs; If only the price of one of these sets came down to a more realistic level of around $6,500.00 or so, it would be damn hard for me to ignore it any further...

The price of features such as local-dimming white LEDs will come down in price. At a rate of 15%-20% per year, it will take ~3 years for todays $10,000 set to reach ~$6,500.
spyboy is offline  
post #103 of 116 Old 11-15-2009, 06:49 PM
Senior Member
 
dpak2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

The price of features such as local-dimming white LEDs will come down in price. At a rate of 15%-20% per year, it will take ~3 years for todays $10,000 set to reach ~$6,500.

Absolute BS for new technology like LED. The 52XS1 started off with a list price of $10,000 a year and a half ago, I just picked it up for 2 grand with free shipping and no tax. That ain't no 20% per year. There are a whole cr*pload of new 60" LED models coming soon out of the new Sharp plant at mainstream prices of $3 grand or less. Expect dramatic downward price pressure and mainstreaming of LEd by next year.
dpak2005 is offline  
post #104 of 116 Old 11-15-2009, 08:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
davegow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In the glorious open countryside of Eastern Ontario.
Posts: 1,686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpak2005 View Post

... Expect dramatic downward price pressure and mainstreaming of LEd by next year.

Especially as LED TVs are simpler and cheaper to make than CCFL sets (no high-voltage transformer, for example). Less true of local-dimming sets, which have more complex circuitry and computing power.

I just installed a 12V system of LED security lighting on my house. 5 watts to give good area lighting in 4 locations. Really nice cheery colors. Lights are rated for 100,000 hours lifetime. LEDs will take over illumination in general, not just TVs.
davegow is offline  
post #105 of 116 Old 11-15-2009, 08:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
Benny42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 905
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by davegow View Post

Especially as LED TVs are simpler and cheaper to make than CCFL sets (no high-voltage transformer, for example). Less true of local-dimming sets, which have more complex circuitry and computing power.

True - at the moment, they use a separate board with CPU/controller, RAM etc. but the controller circuitry will be part of the main controller chip at some time. It's similar to graphics chips: The higher the integration the more fits on the crystal, at the same cost.

What will remain is the larger amount of LEDs until they find a way to use edge-lighting really well for local dimming.

bye
Benny
Benny42 is offline  
post #106 of 116 Old 11-16-2009, 12:16 AM
Senior Member
 
happy hopping's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Malibu, CA, USA
Posts: 290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
what's the difference between white LED vs. RGB LED?
happy hopping is offline  
post #107 of 116 Old 11-18-2009, 04:44 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Wayne Zworld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
[quote=happy hopping;17501063]how often does this happen? Is it happening each time there is bright scent to dark scene?

Is there any other members who have this same problem?

Also, what is the improvement from the 65" Xs1 vs. the new 65"


Yup i have the same problem
Wayne Zworld is offline  
post #108 of 116 Old 11-19-2009, 09:05 PM
Senior Member
 
happy hopping's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Malibu, CA, USA
Posts: 290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You have the 65 or the smaller 1?

and w/ the same problem, what's your bottom line--

hate it

put up w/ it

still love it?
happy hopping is offline  
post #109 of 116 Old 11-19-2009, 09:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
whitetrash66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,049
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpak2005 View Post

All I'm saying is that if I'm wall mounting and not putting that thing on a stand, there's no way I'm buying something that fat, especially because its so large otherwise. And certainly not ffor that price. Hell CCFLs aren't even that thick these days, there is NO excuse for an LED backlit to be that thick. At that price range, it better not just have a good picture, but be something that wows people on your wall. Anyway there's no way anybody should be looking for anything in that outrageous price range when LED will become mainstream in the next year in all sizes, including larger ones, and without that kind of price premium.

um, the thinness factor means nothing to many people when compared to the picture quality of a wider set. Many people (myself included) are coming from projection or larger CRTs and anything even 5-6 inches deep is much better. I have the xbr8 and wouldn't trade it for anything else currently on the market, thin or not, and that beast is 5" thick... i'd rather have better colors/motion/sharpness/overall performance than sacrifice some of that for a thinner screen. But to each his own
whitetrash66 is offline  
post #110 of 116 Old 11-19-2009, 09:43 PM
Member
 
corrado85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 146
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpak2005 View Post

All I'm saying is that if I'm wall mounting and not putting that thing on a stand, there's no way I'm buying something that fat, especially because its so large otherwise. And certainly not ffor that price. Hell CCFLs aren't even that thick these days, there is NO excuse for an LED backlit to be that thick. At that price range, it better not just have a good picture, but be something that wows people on your wall. Anyway there's no way anybody should be looking for anything in that outrageous price range when LED will become mainstream in the next year in all sizes, including larger ones, and without that kind of price premium.

how times in a day do guests come in your house mr.chuckles? and do they view your tv and say WOW at the expense of your comfort? (God willing) Money was no object for me, My contenders were sony XBR8 and/or Sharp XS1. I chose XBR8 for overall performance (SD Broadcasting, PIP, color gamut, screen size and more) ; a better leg.

At the end, whether someone chose this or that, to each his own!
corrado85 is offline  
post #111 of 116 Old 11-21-2009, 06:15 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Wayne Zworld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post

You have the 65 or the smaller 1?

and w/ the same problem, what's your bottom line--

hate it

put up w/ it

still love it?

I still love it and am looking to buy 2 more 52s, all the people that see my professionally calibrated 65 think it's the best thing they have ever seen. Any ideas where to find 2 at a good price?

I have not flashed the new firmware yet because I'm afraid that ill loose thecalibration settings, the gut that did mine went deeeep into the service menu...
Wayne
Wayne Zworld is offline  
post #112 of 116 Old 11-23-2009, 07:18 PM
Senior Member
 
happy hopping's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Malibu, CA, USA
Posts: 290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
make sure you write down those calibrated setting. Does Costso has XS1? because they sells the 94U before.
happy hopping is offline  
post #113 of 116 Old 07-02-2010, 02:30 PM
Member
 
DulacLancelot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
hi. this is the closest thing to an XS1 owner's thread as i could find.

i'm connecting my 52xs1u directly to the HDMI port on my computer video card, bypassing that AVC box that comes with the panel.

the EDID (Extended Display Identification Data) shows that the max refresh rate of the panel is 60Hz. i would like to try and set it at 120Hz since that's what the max is supposed to be. however, since the EDID says 60Hz, there is a warning that setting it at 120Hz may permanently damage my monitor, so i haven't tried it yet.

1) is it safe to think that i cannot actually cause damage through an HDMI connection?
2) has anyone else connected their XS1 directly via an HDMI port at 120Hz refresh rate? What did you think?


by the way, thanks, Benny, for that great reply pointing out my misinterpretation of those LED backlight pictures. hopefully, i already let you know thanks in a private message before.
DulacLancelot is offline  
post #114 of 116 Old 07-02-2010, 03:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
Benny42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 905
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DulacLancelot View Post

hi. this is the closest thing to an XS1 owner's thread as i could find.

i'm connecting my 52xs1u directly to the HDMI port on my computer video card, bypassing that AVC box that comes with the panel.

Which is probably a very good decision as reviews recommended to use a scaler or dedicated PC instead of the AVC box.

Quote:


the EDID (Extended Display Identification Data) shows that the max refresh rate of the panel is 60Hz. i would like to try and set it at 120Hz since that's what the max is supposed to be. however, since the EDID says 60Hz, there is a warning that setting it at 120Hz may permanently damage my monitor, so i haven't tried it yet.

1) is it safe to think that i cannot actually cause damage through an HDMI connection?

I don't think that it would damage the set as I don't think that it's possible to establish a HDMI-connection with an unsupported resolution/frequency.
It's more likely that you get an error message of some sort ("Wrong signal" or something like that).

Quote:


2) has anyone else connected their XS1 directly via an HDMI port at 120Hz refresh rate? What did you think?

I don't have an XS1 but one or two reviews I read in German magazines around January 2009 reported that they couldn't get the 100 Hz mode to work (we have a base frequency of 50 instead of 60 Hz in Germany so doubling yields 100 instead of 120 Hz) - or rather: That the picture processing of the AVC box showed no improvement when enabling 100 Hz mode. Haven't read any updates or errata for these reviews, too...

I also don't think that the XS1 has 120 Hz input capability (like some PC monitors for usage with Nvidia 3D glasses) and it was certainly too early for supporting the 3D-TV-standards we now have in some 2010 sets -- which by the way also don't support 120 Hz video input but 60 Hz megaframes etc.

I suspect that the TCON-board in the panel (it's connected directly to the LC panel and controls the crystal cells) is running the 120 Hz mode internally.
I don't know much about TCON-internals but a Sony engineer in this forum once stated that all Sony TVs (at least pre-2010) feed 60 Hz signals into the TCON which runs at 120 Hz and does all sorts of motion magic then. So it's still at least a possibility that the XS1 offers 120 Hz modes.

The interesting job is now to find out what the XS1 panel actually offers and how to control it's functions:
- The panel should be able to the local dimming on it's own (everything necessary is included) but how to control it? Or is it active all the time?
- Does the panel actually do MCFI (motion-compensated frame interpolation) or is this a function of the AVC box? Being able to feed only 60 Hz into the panel would indicate that the MCFI is inside the panel - but how to enable it and what modes does it offer?
- Does the panel support backlight scanning or dark frame insertion? This could also be done in the panel itself (=without the AVC box). How to enable it if supported?

With a dedicated PC you not only have a lot of scaling options but can do all sorts of motion processing. Perhaps this thread is worth checking out?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1258956
Note that I'm not affiliated with them and haven't tested the software, yet, but if I were in your shoes getting good 60 Hz input for the panel would be my highest priority right now.

Hopefully you can clear those questions & problems as the XS1 panel is still one of the most interesting ones out there. It was clearly ahead of it's time I still hope that it will become the direction for high-performance local dimming hardware for the next few years (at least until big OLED panels will become affordable).

bye
Benny
Benny42 is offline  
post #115 of 116 Old 07-27-2011, 08:22 AM
Member
 
DulacLancelot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So I have finally again been playing a little bit more with this tv. I know, it's been a while, and probably a travesty to most people who would be on an audio/video forum. :P While I feel odd talking about such an old set again in such an old thread, googling told me that the successor to this tv, the xs5 series, is just about coming out, so in a sense, perhaps this tv is not so irrelevant after all. I imagine there will be comparisons made, pros and cons weighed. So I think there is more to be discussed about the XS1, and this is the best place to do it.

And thank you, Benny, for your great responses in this thread, and your last response to which I never replied. I tend to feel funny replying to something with no real substance to add, just to say "thanks", but I have some more to add now, maybe more questions, so, by the way, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

I also don't think that the XS1 has 120 Hz input capability (like some PC monitors for usage with Nvidia 3D glasses) and it was certainly too early for supporting the 3D-TV-standards we now have in some 2010 sets -- which by the way also don't support 120 Hz video input but 60 Hz megaframes etc.

I suspect that the TCON-board in the panel (it's connected directly to the LC panel and controls the crystal cells) is running the 120 Hz mode internally.
I don't know much about TCON-internals but a Sony engineer in this forum once stated that all Sony TVs (at least pre-2010) feed 60 Hz signals into the TCON which runs at 120 Hz and does all sorts of motion magic then. So it's still at least a possibility that the XS1 offers 120 Hz modes.

I have since not really tried very hard to get the 120Hz input. I think I don't have the experience/eye to be a very distinguished critic of picture quality. Before this tv, I was still watching 1080i30(CRT). My quest for 120Hz was more that when streaming Netflix, the highest HD streaming rate (3.8Mbps)would stutter at times because my Pentium 4 system was not powerful enough, and I was thinking that the 24fps Netflix stream went more evenly into 120Hz than 60Hz so maybe than might reduce my processing requirements. But I guess I was being a bit too proactive trying to get to 120Hz. I hadn't tested Netflix with even the 1080p60 yet. Seems just the jump from 1080i30 to 1080p60 made things easier for the computer enough that I was getting pretty good streaming quality, and with Netflix updates and Silverlight updates, the quality/smoothness may even have gotten better over time. Though it could also be my internet connection may have been performing a bit better, too. Anyway, getting to 120Hz input on the tv is a non-issue for me now. I think it looks great on 60Hz!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

The interesting job is now to find out what the XS1 panel actually offers and how to control it's functions:
- The panel should be able to the local dimming on it's own (everything necessary is included) but how to control it? Or is it active all the time?

I tried to find a setting for this in the AVC box. By process of elimination of what I already understood, the two remaining settings that could possibly turn the local-dimming on and off were "OPC" and "Active Contrast". Google told me OPC was an automatic brightness control that sets to brightness dependent on the ambient light (a light sensor is invovled), and experimentation confirmed this. "Active Contrast" seems to brighten whites (and assume darken blacks) in a scene where the whitest white is not the whitest white the tv is capable of displaying. In a adjust-your-contrast video of a guy wearing a white shirt where you are supposed to see the wrinkles in the shirt, with Active Contrast on, for a second or two after the video begins, the shirt is way too white but then the Active Contrast kicks in and makes it so you can see the wrinkle details. With Active Contrast off, you could see the wrinkles right from the start. This seemed wrong, so this feature I don't miss from the AVC box; I would have left it off all the time anyway. So, since none of the options in the menus in the AVC box look like it controls the local-dimming, I have to assume that it is not user configurable so always on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

- Does the panel actually do MCFI (motion-compensated frame interpolation) or is this a function of the AVC box? Being able to feed only 60 Hz into the panel would indicate that the MCFI is inside the panel - but how to enable it and what modes does it offer?

I don't know about this. I actually wouldn't know how to test for this either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

- Does the panel support backlight scanning or dark frame insertion? This could also be done in the panel itself (=without the AVC box). How to enable it if supported?

I did not see any options on the AVC box that understood to be either of these things. I wouldn't know how to test to see if dark frame insertion is happening. And I couldn't figure out what the different between backlight scanning and local-dimming is, at least in the case of this tv...

Speaking of which, a point I forgot to bring up before when I said I was assuming local-dimming is always on -- I have not been able to observe the local-dimming at all, so that is one thing that worries me. I set my windows background to total black, and the XS1 is the secondary monitor so it is completely black without even the Start button or the Taskbar. Then I moved my white mouse pointer around the screen. I kind of expected to see little squares containing the mouse pointer light up and be less black? Couldn't find a hint of anything. Even turned the brightness way down so that my white mouse pointer looked a dull gray, hoping to make sure the backlight leds went to zero, but I got nothing. So there is my doubt about whether local-dimming is working. And this is both with and without the AVC box. Not super concerned though because that black looks very black to me! I that is one thing I might be picky about coming from a CRT, I think. Still, has anyone found any local-dimming setting, or confirmed that it is always on?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

With a dedicated PC you not only have a lot of scaling options but can do all sorts of motion processing. Perhaps this thread is worth checking out?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1258956
Note that I'm not affiliated with them and haven't tested the software, yet, but if I were in your shoes getting good 60 Hz input for the panel would be my highest priority right now.

I may try this, but just to check it out to see if/how much it is better. I have a Windows Media Center setup, and I will stick with the simplicity of just using MCE than this dedicated player. Plus, this wouldn't work with Hulu/Netfllix anyway, and since the Netflix HD streams have been looking awesome to me lately, maybe whatever gain there is to be made in picture quality is lost on me anyway. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny42 View Post

Hopefully you can clear those questions & problems as the XS1 panel is still one of the most interesting ones out there. It was clearly ahead of it's time I still hope that it will become the direction for high-performance local dimming hardware for the next few years (at least until big OLED panels will become affordable).

I am in an interested-in-playing-with-the-tv phase right now, so if there are any tests or experiments to be done, I could try it out. Thanks again for discussing the tv that you don't even own.

Oh one more note. Not that I have tried any other tvs, but for a tv that you want to connect directly to your computer, this is great in that you can bypass the AVC box. Even with as much processing as possible turned off, when going through the AVC box in dot-by-dot mode, moving the mouse around the screen seems to have the slightest of delays. No such delay when hooking directly into the panel itself. I'm think I got pretty lucky about that. That delay might have been mighty annoying.
DulacLancelot is offline  
post #116 of 116 Old 08-08-2011, 11:52 PM
Member
 
DulacLancelot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just thought I'd post some updates.

Unfortunately, when connected directly from a computer video card to the tv, i.e., HDMI and skipping the AVC box, I was not able to ever get the local dimming to work. Consequently, I've decided using the AVC box is the way to go.

The biggest reason I wanted to go direct to the lcd panel was the latency issue, but really, I don't even notice. I think I noticed before before because I had it directly connected and then I switched to through the AVC box. In fact, it's hard enough to detect that I'm wondering if it is in my imagination, or I've ended up changing the tv settings such that the delay is not there anymore.

Another nice plus side to the AVC box is the OPC feature. It seems to be a Sharp feature that gets trashed by most people on here, but I like it. It basically changes the brightness setting depending on the ambient lighting (detected by a sensor). So you turn the feature on, calibrate the thing in a dark room, and then it always goes back to those settings in the dark environment. Any additional light causes the birghtness to be adjusted up. Given that the people most picky about picture quality tend to also have the attitude that "serious viewing can only be done in the dark" I see this feature making things seriously calibrated for the dark, yet brightened up in brighter situations automatically to conveniently make less serious viewing more viewable.

Back to the local dimming, I did have some problems detecting zones and stuff using the "white mouse pointer on a black screen" test. This is why for a while I couldn't figure out whether local dimming was on or not. I never did find a setting, so I think it is just always on. The trick I realized, was to let your eyes adjust to the darkness for a minute or two before trying it. So here I am with a dual-monitor setup, web-surfing adjusting setting using the graphic card controls, or whatever, so when I drag the mouse over to the second screen and look there, I guess my eyes were kind of adjusted to a regular computer screen with regular stuff on it. But if I turn off my computer monitor and drag my mouse pointer over to the lcd panel, in about a minute or so I can indeed see the zones lighting up a bit. From what I can tell with the mouse pointer test, it is 48 x 24 zones. For any real viewing, where I'm not sitting there looking at a black screen for a minute adjusting my eyes to complete darkness, I think any blooming would be impossible to detect; I had a hard enough time trying to decide whether the blooming I was seeing was the display or just the way my eyes see. I sure can't see it during the end credits to movies and stuff. And I KNOW that when the entire screen is black, the tv is essentially off and as soon as the mouse pointer gets on there the entire screen does light up a bit to the lowest backlight level, and yet I still cannot detect this lighting up happening at all without the minute of adjusting the eyes to the dark thing; the whole screen still just looks black.

Colors are much more complicated. I'll deal with that should I learn some of that gamma stuff someday. I've read something about the AVC box not being able to adjust the colors enough on this tv. Well, at least connected to a computer, I have all sorts of video card color settings to use instead should that work better. Looks awesome enough to me for now. Ignorance is bliss.
DulacLancelot is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off