Samsung S, A, C Panel Differences: 2009 LCD Line-Up - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 933 Old 12-16-2009, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

The whole point is we don't know what the differences are besides opinions from people who hate the panel they have and those who love the panel they have.

I have not seen ANY hard data at all comparing the 3 panel manufactures.

In fact, if it weren't for this thread, i would never have know there was an issue at all.
I wouldn't have been looking for the problems that supposedly exist between the 3.

Thats why I'm saying we need someone, somewhere to confirm using actual tools to test for things like luminescence at a certain angle, or hard science confirming 1 pixel geometry is better that another.

There is always a trade off.
If you have better viewing angles, maybe you loose PQ dead center.
Better PQ and uniformity gives UP viewing angles.

Is one panel better all specs than others?
Or, is there a trade off?

Thats what we need to know.

test,

I went through the same thing when I was looking for PC monitors. I wanted an S-IPS panel, and Dell was doing the same thing by sticking lower quality panels and keeping the model numbers the same. I was lucky to get the S-IPS panel. Not a fan of these companies pulling a fast one on people.
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post #182 of 933 Old 12-16-2009, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

In fact, if it weren't for this thread, i would never have know there was an issue at all.

My case is the exact opposite. I had an issue with very poor viewing angles, so I did some research here on this forum. I discovered that my TV had a "C" panel (never heard of it before) and that an "S" panel could possibly fix the viewing angle problem. I found the same TV with an S panel, bought it, returned the C, and sure enough... the poor viewing angle problem is gone.
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post #183 of 933 Old 12-16-2009, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SocketAzzWIPE View Post

I went through the same thing when I was looking for PC monitors. I wanted an S-IPS panel, and Dell was doing the same thing by sticking lower quality panels and keeping the model numbers the same. I was lucky to get the S-IPS panel.

Hey, me too. It was Dell's 2005FPW or 2007FPW (I can't recall which). I too got lucky and ended up with the S-IPS panel.
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post #184 of 933 Old 12-16-2009, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundsGood View Post

Hey, me too. It was Dell's 2005FPW or 2007FPW (I can't recall which). I too got lucky and ended up with the S-IPS panel.

Yep. That's the one.

It's like they purposely sell tvs/monitors with higher end components at first taking a hit on the profit...this creates a buzz ...people start recommending their purchase to everybody else because it's a good product and then these companies decide to put cheaper components which costs them less to build thus increasing their profits. Not sure about everybody else, but this really pisses me off.
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post #185 of 933 Old 12-16-2009, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SocketAzzWIPE View Post

Yep. That's the one.

It's like they purposely sell tvs/monitors with higher end components at first taking a hit on the profit...this creates a buzz ...people start recommending their purchase to everybody else because it's a good product and then these companies decide to put cheaper components which costs them less to build thus increasing their profits. Not sure about everybody else, but this really pisses me off.

Related to that, I wonder if Samsung might ship sets with the S panels to those dealers most likely to have more demanding customers, and ship sets with A and C panels to mass-market dealers. It would be interesting to know if there is a relation between where someone bought their set and the type of panel it has. *** this is pure speculation -- I have no reason to think Samsung actually does this ***

Also, I wonder if Samsung actually believes it doesn't matter which manufacturer's panel someone gets. It seems strange that they would openly display the panel type on the carton and on the set itself if they were trying to do a bait and switch.
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post #186 of 933 Old 12-16-2009, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SocketAzzWIPE View Post

Not sure about everybody else, but this really pisses me off.

Well not only you, but to me its illegal what theyre doing. Its a total slap in the face of the customers. If Samsung is going to continue these sneaky and fraud like tactics then i wont buy another product from them ever again.
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post #187 of 933 Old 12-16-2009, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SocketAzzWIPE View Post

My question is, why don't people complain about this?
I can understand if they want to do panel lottery on their lower models...they can jack up the price and put cheaper components in them, but doing this silly lottery business with their flagship line?
If I'm paying good money for a top line product, I would hope that I get my money's worth.

I was told the panel lottery is only with the A5XX models, no? How about last years LNxxA models? Do they havea a lottery too?
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post #188 of 933 Old 12-16-2009, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by pdicamillo View Post

Related to that, I wonder if Samsung might ship sets with the S panels to those dealers most likely to have more demanding customers, and ship sets with A and C panels to mass-market dealers. It would be interesting to know if there is a relation between where someone bought their set and the type of panel it has. *** this is pure speculation -- I have no reason to think Samsung actually does this ***

Also, I wonder if Samsung actually believes it doesn't matter which manufacturer's panel someone gets. It seems strange that they would openly display the panel type on the carton and on the set itself if they were trying to do a bait and switch.

So far at the local Frys, every LCD box I have looked at has an "S" panel in it so I think that it may just be random where the different panel batches are sent to.


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post #189 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by pdicamillo View Post

I wonder if Samsung might ship sets with the S panels to those dealers most likely to have more demanding customers, and ship sets with A and C panels to mass-market dealers.

I doubt it. I got both of my 55B650s at BestBuy (the C panel and the S panel).
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post #190 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 06:32 AM
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Just bought an LN32B640 from BB. Wow, the viewing angles do indeed SUCK. The panel itself is an AA01. I doubt there are any LN32B640's to be had with an 'S' panel. Not sure if they even manufactured them with the premium panel...
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post #191 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sharepoint View Post

Just bought an LN32B640 from BB. Wow, the viewing angles do indeed SUCK. The panel itself is an AA01. I doubt there are any LN32B640's to be had with an 'S' panel. Not sure if they even manufactured them with the premium panel...

I got an LN32B650 a month ago, which is also a AA01. While I wouldn't say the viewing angle sucks, I would say if you view even a little off center the blacks and near black appear lighter as do colors. So, contrast and color degrades significantly off-center even though in my case the picture is still very watchable somewhat off-axis, just not as good as dead center.


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post #192 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I got an LN32B650 a month ago, which is also a AA01. While I wouldn't say the viewing angle sucks, I would say if you view even a little off center the blacks and near black appear lighter as do colors. So, contrast and color degrades significantly off-center even though in my case the picture is still very watchable somewhat off-axis, just not as good as dead center.

You know I think it greatly varies with the content you are watching too. When I'm watching Hi Def Cable or anything else Hi Def the uniformity problems are hard to notice at all. It's only when I'm watching standard def material that I can start to notice the same problems as you describe or as described in the cnet review. Each panel is manufactured to the exact same specs and therefore each shares the same problems, none are better or worse.

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post #193 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 10:59 AM
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Each panel is manufactured to the exact same specs...

Not true.
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post #194 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Sasquatch321 View Post

You know I think it greatly varies with the content you are watching too. When I'm watching Hi Def Cable or anything else Hi Def the uniformity problems are hard to notice at all. It's only when I'm watching standard def material that I can start to notice the same problems as you describe or as described in the cnet review. Each panel is manufactured to the exact same specs and therefore each shares the same problems, none are better or worse.

I think they all meet a handful of minimum specs, that's not the same thing

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #195 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 11:16 AM
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I think they all meet a handful of minimum specs, that's not the same thing

Right. Samsung says "Every panel in a Samsung television meets or exceeds the advertised specifications..."

That's very different than "Each panel is manufactured to the exact same specs..."
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post #196 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 11:35 AM
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So does this affect 6000 series panels? I did a search and didn't see any mentions of that series in this thread, but the list on the first page did include the 7000 series panels. I have a sticker on the back showing SQ01 as the version.

--
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post #197 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundsGood View Post

Right. Samsung says "Every panel in a Samsung television meets or exceeds the advertised specifications..."

That's very different than "Each panel is manufactured to the exact same specs..."

Perhaps you missed the part where they said "None are better or worse".

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post #198 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 12:55 PM
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Perhaps you missed the part where they said "None are better or worse".

We're well aware of that claim since you keep repeating it.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #199 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 05:33 PM
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Not sure if anyone can answer this but the panel lottery is only with the Samsung 5XX series right? So the LN52B610 is safe?
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post #200 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 06:09 PM
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gotta love the internet

a few threads claiming there are differences in panel quality based on the letter it starts with and bam, it is fact!

paranoia at its finest

laughable
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post #201 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 06:54 PM
 
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Not sure if anyone can answer this but the panel lottery is only with the Samsung 5XX series right? So the LN52B610 is safe?

No, because even the B650 have "C" and "A" panels.
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post #202 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 07:17 PM
 
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gotta love the internet
a few threads claiming there are differences in panel quality based on the letter it starts with and bam, it is fact!
paranoia at its finest
laughable

Yes, but our eyes don't lie! We aren't foolish to use only use one source base to use as the basis of it all. Except there are others who simply do not think beyond what is given and/or refuses because of their own personal denial (in most times, their investment in protecting a company so dear to them)
Laughable indeed.
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post #203 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 07:42 PM
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We aren't foolish to use only use one source base to use as the basis of it all.

come again?
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post #204 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 07:54 PM
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a few threads claiming there are differences in panel quality based on the letter it starts with and bam, it is fact!

Have you actually seen the different panels yourself?

(I'm guessing not.)
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post #205 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 08:01 PM
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I've had the same series side by side and the difference is night and day. People have to remember the technologies in each panel types are different. S-PVA, AMVA, SMVA. Each has their own qualities with the S-PVA's having Better blacks. This is not always the case, but 95% of the time it is. I have a 46A750 and a 46B650 with a "SS02" panel. I recently wanted another TV so I bought another B650 because I love the black levels and color. When I got it home it was an "AA04" . I put it next to my other B650 and adjusted it. I had both backlights at 8 and the "SS02" blew it away in black levels. I had to put the "AA04" on 4 or 5 to come close to the other one. I took that B650 back and got a UN46B6000 "Bn02" and had the same problems with black levels. So I ended up exchanging for another UN46B6000 with a "SQ01" S-PVA panel and the black levels and color is about like my original B650 . On Samsung own website under technologies, I can't remember exactly where, but they even tout their own patented S-PVA tech is better than other "VA" tech. Someone had a link somewhere in these panel discussions. So sorry...YES there is a difference. No amount of calibration will change the different pros and cons in the technologies. Dynamic contrast doesn't mean much at all. Notice how Samsung doesn't mention "native contrast" like Sony. So when Samsung says that all panels meet or exceed specs. Well, the main spec that has much to do with black levels and color saturation is the native panel contrast. Dynamic contrast has more to do with the processing, for instance auto dimming. So by not listing the native contrast that means you leave a broad range open for the processing to make up for, but the core ability of the panel to make contrast is more important. I could make my flashlight show a 100,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio by flashing it on and off.... :-p
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post #206 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundsGood View Post

Have you actually seen the different panels yourself?

(I'm guessing not.)

I've seen the S panels on display at Best Buy and didn't see anything different about them.

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post #207 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 08:36 PM
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That can happen at the store sometimes depending on the lighting and or source material. Once you go through alot of sets and money you find out the store environment can be deceiving and something is not quite right.
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post #208 of 933 Old 12-17-2009, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ab81 View Post

I've had the same series side by side and the difference is night and day. People have to remember the technologies in each panel types are different. S-PVA, AMVA, SMVA. Each has their own qualities with the S-PVA's having Better blacks. This is not always the case, but 95% of the time it is. I have a 46A750 and a 46B650 with a "SS02" panel. I recently wanted another TV so I bought another B650 because I love the black levels and color. When I got it home it was an "AA04" . I put it next to my other B650 and adjusted it. I had both backlights at 8 and the "SS02" blew it away in black levels. I had to put the "AA04" on 4 or 5 to come close to the other one. I took that B650 back and got a UN46B6000 "Bn02" and had the same problems with black levels. So I ended up exchanging for another UN46B6000 with a "SQ01" S-PVA panel and the black levels and color is about like my original B650 . On Samsung own website under technologies, I can't remember exactly where, but they even tout their own patented S-PVA tech is better than other "VA" tech. Someone had a link somewhere in these panel discussions. So sorry...YES there is a difference. No amount of calibration will change the different pros and cons in the technologies. Dynamic contrast doesn't mean much at all. Notice how Samsung doesn't mention "native contrast" like Sony. So when Samsung says that all panels meet or exceed specs. Well, the main spec that has much to do with black levels and color saturation is the native panel contrast. Dynamic contrast has more to do with the processing, for instance auto dimming. So by not listing the native contrast that means you leave a broad range open for the processing to make up for, but the core ability of the panel to make contrast is more important. I could make my flashlight show a 100,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio by flashing it on and off.... :-p

So other panels with "S" are better also. Not just the "SQ"? i.e.- ss02, ss06 etc?

Is the "SQ" panel the best of the "S" ?

Samsung UN60H7150
Samsung LN46C650
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post #209 of 933 Old 12-18-2009, 08:54 AM
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I've just read this thread from the beginning and it looks like the consensus is that SQ01 is the better panel out of the bunch.
Well... I have LN52B750 with SQ01 panel and I have to say I am less than happy
with the viewing angels on this set. I would say anything more than 30-45 degrees off center and the colors/contrast start to wash out.
I believe all these reports about off angle issues are subjective. Some people are picky and some are not. It also depends how close to the TV you sit.
The closer you sit to the TV the most off center washing out you get.
I sit about 6-7 feet away from the 52" set and I can easily see the difference when I move out to the most left/right side of a couch.
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post #210 of 933 Old 12-18-2009, 09:09 AM
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I believe all these reports about off angle issues are subjective. Some people are picky and some are not. It also depends how close to the TV you sit.
The closer you sit to the TV the most off center washing out you get.
I sit about 6-7 feet away from the 52" set and I can easily see the difference when I move out to the most left/right side of a couch.

Yup, I think alot of the debate here is subjective.
Nothing of ANY hard data has been posted as of yet.

What is expected and what is excepted varies from person to person.
One may see my LCD's viewing angles and say "looks great to me" while another may not.

I have the 55" mounted on my bedroom wall. (kids are sad.....lol....too bad for them)
I sit (well...laid down..lol) at the appropriate distance from the 55" at around 13.5 feet from it. Dead Center.
However, even from an acceptable distance, the Washout is horrid. I have a queen size bed. If lay in the middle of the bed its great. To sit to the right or left of center on my bed from
13.5 feet away there is STILL a noticeable degradation in PQ.

I have a Technician coming to my home on December 24th to take a look at my LN55640B with a CN01 panel.
I have no way to return it from where i bought it, (Leons in Canada) so I have to use the manufactures warranty. I've only had it 2 weeks.

I'm going to question him on the viewing angles. I'm going to request politely I want a replacement for an LN55B640 SQ## panel.

I will report back here what he finds and what I can gleen from his perspective.

I really am trying to be as bipartisan as I can about this panel debate.

Hopefully with the tools he brings along, we can get some real data to report.

Assuming of course he's open and honest with me.


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