Samsung S, A, C Panel Differences: 2009 LCD Line-Up - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
nosepass2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Samsung S, A, C Panel Differences: 2009 LCD Line-Up


(Other thread talking about the same issue: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...g+panel)<br />
I'm hoping to sum it up in this post/thread.

-------Introduction--------
I've been trying to tell people about this 'panel' issue; but many people disacknowledge and disprove.
Truth be told; Last year, Samsung started using AMVA (AUO) and SMVA (CMO) panels, but only with the A630 model and down - A650 and up used strictly SPVA panels. This year, every set seems to involve more than one panel including sets higher than '630'. (Based on all 2009 CCFL-LCD Lineup)
Some do acknowledge about this issue to an extent; but believe there isn't ANY difference. Sorry, but there is a difference and people need to know about it.

I'm not trying to promote any other manufacturer and Samsung for that matter, nor am I trying to suggest not to buy Samsung. Just pointing out that reality is not always based on how we wished it would be.
All information gathered is either speculation and proof by codes, panel information, service manual, service menu, customer reference, and so on.

All information has been suggested as 'true', 'confirmed' and accepted. If you feel the need to deny, please refute instead.

Thank you.
---------------------------


Alright, so the question is, "Is there any truth to the difference in quality between these panels?" One word, "YES!"

Samsung has been recently doing some fishy marketing tricks by using several panels on their sets and on particular sizes. For instance, the 55" B650 (Which I own) all have CMO-SMVA panels; while the other sets (..40, 46..) using several panels.

It's not something to overlook!

1. We have the letters S,A, and C appearing on Samsung monitors and TV.
2. We have news releases of Samsung procuring panels from Chi Mei, AUO.
3. We have owners of monitors and TV complaining of performance issues.
4. We have pictures of various pixel geometries.
5. We have a picture of AU Optronics label through vents of a Samsung TV.
6. We have a Samsung Tech who won't deny it in the CNET forum.*
7. We have global reports of the same issues with Samsung product.

There has been no feasible alternative for the letters S, A, and C put forth other then the 3 panel makers. The panel differences have been noted in smaller computer monitors. *The Samsung tech would not be prohibited from commenting, as he says he is, if the theory was false.

---------------------------

Here is a complete list of panels based on service manual collections (Thanks to Mikl1984)
Note: The list of part numbers (panels) is what your television should get.
In other words, the list displays the main panel on that particular
model. Not all panels are listed because of lack of code numbers regarding
other panels.


The service manual does not list all panels.
These case will be useful to find out:
1. Sticker info
2. Panel Codename in Service Menu
3. Pixel Photo
4. Most exact evidence - sticker on panel inside TV (Disassembling required in most cases)

Check www.samsungparts.com for more information on television parts (Use list below)
Second column = Samsung#
Third column = Part#

A complete list of panels *(Please read note):
*Note: The list of part numbers (panels) is what your television should get.
In other words, the list displays the main panel on that particular
model. Not all panels are listed because of lack of code numbers regarding
other panels.

Code:
LA32B530P7R     BN07-00679D     LTF320HA09
LA32B530P7R     BN07-00658A     V315H1-L01
LA37B530P7R     BN07-00643A     T370HW02 VC
LA40B530P7R     BN07-00645A     T400HW02 V3
LA46B530P7R     BN07-00685B     LTF460HA06
                
LE32B55*        BN07-00640A     T315HW02 V2
LE37B55*        BN07-00643A     T370HW02 VC
LE40B55*        BN07-00675D     LTF400HA08
LE46B55*        BN07-00668A     V460H1-L06
LE32B65*        BN07-00641A     T315HW02 V3
LE37B65*        BN07-00644A     T370HW02 VE
LE40B65*        BN07-00646A     T400HW02 V5
LE46B65*        BN07-00666A     V460H1-LH5
LE55B65*        BN07-00695A     V546H1-L01
LE40B75*        BN07-00694B     LTF400HG03
LE46B75*        BN07-00637A     LTF460HG01
LE52B75*        BN07-00696A     LTF520HH01
                
UE40B70x0WW     BN07-00700B     LTF400HF08
UE40B70x0WW     BN07-00734A     
UE46B70x0WW     BN07-00701B     LTF460HF08
UE46B70x0WW     BN07-00735A     
UE55B7000WW     BN07-00702B     LTF550HF04
UE55B7000WW     BN07-00736A     
UE40B8000XW     BN07-00698A     LTF400HG02
UE46B8000XW     BN07-00699A     LTF460HG02
                
LN19B360C5D     BN07-00610A     M185B1-L02
LN22B360C5D     BN07-00620A     V216B1-L02
                
LN26B350F1      BN07-00638A     T260XW02 VS
LN32B350F1      BN07-00657A     V315B5-L01
                
LN26B360C5D     BN07-00638A     T260XW02 VS
LN32B360C5D     BN07-00657A     V315B5-L01
LN32B350F1D     BN07-00657A     V315B5-L01
                
LN26B450C4H     BN07-00638A     T260XW02 VS
LN26B457C6H     BN07-00638A     T260XW02 VS
LN32B450C4H     BN07-00674D     LTF320AP06
LN32B457C6H     BN07-00674D     LTF320AP06
LN37B457C6H     BN07-00642A     T370XW02 VF
LN40B457C6H     BN07-00650A     T400XW01 V7
                
LN26B450C4M     BN07-00638A     T260XW02 VS
LN32B450C4M     BN07-00657A     V315B5-L01
LN37B450C4M     BN07-00642A     T370XW02 VF
LN40B450C4M     BN07-00650A     T400XW01 V7
LN32B530P2M     BN07-00640A     T315HW02 V2
                
LN26B460B2D     BN07-00638A     T260XW02 VS
LN32B460B2D     BN07-00657A     V315B5-L01
LN32B540P8D     BN07-00657A     V315B5-L01
                
LN40B540P8F     BN07-00661A     V400H1-L05
LN46B540P8F     BN07-00647A     T460HW03 V4
LN52B540P8F     BN07-00678A     LTF520HB05
LN32B550K1F     BN07-00640A     T315HW02 V2
LN37B550K1F     BN07-00643A     T370HW02 VC
LN40B550K1F     BN07-00675D     LTF400HA08
LN46B550K1F     BN07-00685B     LTF460HA06
LN52B550K1F     BN07-00678A     LTF520HB05
                
LN32B550K1M     BN07-00640A     T315HW02 V2
LN40B550K1M     BN07-00661A     V400H1-L05
LN46B550K1M     BN07-00647A     T460HW03 V4
LN52B550K1M     BN07-00678A     LTF520HB05
LN22B650T6      BN07-00620A     V216B1-L01
LN40B650T1M     BN07-00646A     T400HW02 V5
LN46B650T1M     BN07-00671A     LTF460HF03
LN55B650T1M     BN07-00695A     V546H1-L01
LN52B750U1M     BN07-00696A     LTF520HH01
                
LN40B610A5F     BN07-00691B     LTF400HF10
LN46B610A5F     BN07-00705B     LTF460HF06
LN52B610A5F     BN07-00706B     LTF520HE09
LN32B640R3F     BN07-00641A     T315HW02 V3
                
LN32B650T1F     BN07-00641A     T315HW02 V3
LN37B650T1F     BN07-00644A     T370HW02 VE
LN40B640R3F     BN07-00677D     LTF400HF11
LN46B640R3F     BN07-00671B     LTF460HF07
LN55B640R3F     BN07-00695A     V546H1-L01
LN40B630N1F     BN07-00691B     LTF400HF10
LN46B630N1F     BN07-00705B     LTF460HF06
LN52B630N1F     BN07-00706B     LTF520HE09
                
LN40B650T1F     BN07-00677A     LTF400HF03
LN46B650T1F     BN07-00671A     LTF460HF03
LN55B650T1F     BN07-00695A     V546H1-L01
                
LN40B750U1F     BN07-00694B     LTF400HG03
LN46B750U1F     BN07-00637A     LTF460HG01
LN52B750U1F     BN07-00696A     LTF520HH01

Here we have a list of panels used on Samsung B650 and B750.


Updated picture panels Samsung B650/750 *(Please read note)
*Note: The list of part numbers (panels) is what your television should get.
In other words, the list displays the main panel on that particular
model. Not all panels are listed because of lack of code numbers regarding
other panels.

Code:
Updated picture panels Samsung B650/750 with bit rate comparisons


B650 32" AU Optronics T315HW02/ 8bit (AMVA3) The B650 32 "AU Optronics panel mounts T315HW02 / 8bit (AMVA3)
B650 37" AU Optronics T370HW02/ 8bit (AMVA) The B650 37 "AU Optronics panel mounts T370HW02 / 8bit (AMVA)
B650 40" BN07/81 AU Optronics T400HW02/ 8bit (AMVA3) The B650 40 "panel mounts BN07/81 AU Optronics T400HW02 / 8bit 

(AMVA3)
B650 40" BN81 S-PVA LTF400HF09/ 8bit The B650 40 "S-PVA panel BN81 mounts LTF400HF09 / 8bit
B650 46" S-PVA LTF460HF03/ 8bit The B650 46 "S-PVA panel mounts LTF460HF03 / 8bit
B650 55" CHI-Mey Optoelectronics V546H1/ 10 bit LCS MVA B650 55 "panel mounts CHI-Mey Optoelectronics V546H1 / 10 bit 

LCS MVA

B750 40" BN07 S-PVA LTF400HG03/ 8bit B750 40 "S-PVA BN07 panel LTF400HG03 / 8bit
B750 40" BN81 S-PVA LTF400HG01/ 8bit B750 40 "S-PVA BN81 panel LTF400HG01 / 8bit
B750 40" Chi-Mey Optoelectronics LCS MVA V400H1/ 10bit (for which market...?)
B750 40 "Panel Chi-Mey Optoelectronics LCS MVA V400H1 / 10bit (for which market ...?)

B750 46" BN07 S-PVA LTF460HG01/ 8bit B750 46 "S-PVA BN07 panel LTF460HG01 / 8bit
B750 46" BN81 S-PVA LTF460HG01/ 8bit B750 46 "S-PVA BN81 panel LTF460HG01 / 8bit
B750 46" AU Optronics AMVA3 T460HW03/ 8bit
B750 46 "AU Optronics panel AMVA3 T460HW03 / 8bit (for which market ...?)

B750 52" S-PVA LTF520HH01/ 8bit B750 52 "S-PVA panel LTF520HH01 / 8bit
B750 52" S-PVA LTF520HE09/ 8bit B750 52 "S-PVA panel LTF520HE09 / 8bit

Samsung B750 Controversy (52" vs 40" and 46")
Code:
The Samsung B750 is Samsung's flagship top of the line CCFL-LCD. To
think that the top model should contain the best materials (let alone 
Samsung component/panels) that Samsung has to offer, it surely is quite 
surprising that they chose to do the panel lottery. We're quite certain that 
all 52" B750 contain S-PVA panels. They use "LTF520HH01" and 
"LTF520HE09". While the differences between the two are 
unknown, the latter version are believed to be similar but with minor 
differences. We may not notice anything at all between the two. 

However, the more common sizes (40 and 46) appear to contain several 
panels that include S, A, and C. 

40" = "LTF400HG03" "LTF400HG01" and "V400H1" 
46" = "LTF460HG01" and "T460HW03"

Here we have another complete list (LE)
Code:
LE32B55 *
BN07-00640A LCD-PANEL;T315HW02 V2 BN07-00640A LCD-PANEL; T315HW02 V2
T315HW02 V2,8bit,31.5 inch,16.7M,16:9,0 to +50,12V,AMVA3,72%,31.5 inch,FHD, 4U-Lamp, w/o inverter T315HW02 V2, 8bit, 31.5 inch, 16.7M, 16:9,0 to +50,12 V, AMVA3, 72%, 31.5 inch, FHD, 4U-Lamp, w / o inverter
BN81-02345A A/ST CON T315HW02_V2;T315HW02_V2 BN81-02345A A / ST CON T315HW02_V2; T315HW02_V2
BN07-00679D LCD-PANEL;LTF320HA09 BN07-00679D LCD-PANEL; LTF320HA09
LTF320HA09,SSCZAI,8bit,32inch,16.7M,16:9,0.3635(H)*0.36375(w),0 to +50,12V,SPVA 72%,32 inch FHD LTF320HA09, SSCZAI, 8bit, 32inch, 16.7M, 16:9,0.3635 (H) * 0.36375 (w), 0 to +50,12 V, SPVA 72%, 32 inch FHD

LE37B55* LE37B55 *
BN07-00643A LCD-PANEL;T370HW02 VC BN07-00643A LCD-PANEL; T370HW02 VC
T370HW02 V,8bit,37 inch,16.7M,16:9,0 to +50,12V,AMVA,72%,37 inch, FHD,10S-Lamp, w/o inverter T370HW02 V, 8bit, 37 inch, 16.7M, 16:9,0 to +50,12 V, AMVA, 72%, 37 inch, FHD, 10S-Lamp, w / o inverter
BN81-02368A A/ST CON T370HW02_VC;T370HW02_VC BN81-02368A A / ST CON T370HW02_VC; T370HW02_VC

LE40B55* LE40B55 *
BN07-00661A LCD-PANEL;V400H1-L05 BN07-00661A LCD-PANEL; V400H1-L05
V400H1-L05,8bits,40inch,16.7M,16:9,0 to +50,12V,DJITO, 72%,40 inch,FHD, w/o inverter V400H1-L05, 8bits, 40inch, 16.7M, 16:9,0 to +50,12 V, DJITO, 72%, 40 inch, FHD, w / o inverter
BN81-02390A A/ST CON V400H1-L05;V400H1-L05 BN81-02390A A / ST CON V400H1-L05; V400H1-L05
BN07-00675D LCD-PANEL;LTF400HA08 BN07-00675D LCD-PANEL; LTF400HA08
LTF400HA08,SSDZAZ,8bit,40inch,1.67M,16:9,0.461(H)*0.461(W),0 to +50,12V,SPVA 72%,40inch FHD 60Hz LTF400HA08, SSDZAZ, 8bit, 40inch, 1.67M, 16:9,0.461 (H) * 0.461 (W), 0 to +50,12 V, SPVA 72%, 40inch FHD 60Hz

LE46B55* LE46B55 *
BN07-00668A LCD-PANEL;V460H1-L06 BN07-00668A LCD-PANEL; V460H1-L06
V460H1-L06,8bits,46inch,16.7M,16:9,0 to +50,12V,Flip Pixel, 72%,46 inch, FHD V460H1-L06, 8bits, 46inch, 16.7M, 16:9,0 to +50,12 V, Flip Pixel, 72%, 46 inch, FHD
BN81-02394A A/ST CON V460H1-L06;V460H1-L06 BN81-02394A A / ST CON V460H1-L06; V460H1-L06
BN07-00685B LCD PANEL;LTF460HA06 BN07-00685B LCD PANEL; LTF460HA06
LTF460HA06,SSEZAV,8bit,46inch,16.7M,16:9,0.53025(H)*0.53025 (W,0 to +50,12V,SPVA 72%,AG3 LTF460HA06, SSEZAV, 8bit, 46inch, 16.7M, 16:9,0.53025 (H) * 0.53025 (W, 0 to +50,12 V, SPVA 72%, AG3

LE32B65* LE32B65 *
BN07-00641A LCD-PANEL;T315HW02 V3 BN07-00641A LCD-PANEL; T315HW02 V3
T315HW02 V3,8bit,31.5 inch,16.7M,16:9,0 to +50,12V,AMVA3,72%,31.5 inch, FHD,4U-Lamp, w/o inverter, 120Hz(MEMC) T315HW02 V3, 8bit, 31.5 inch, 16.7M, 16:9,0 to +50,12 V, AMVA3, 72%, 31.5 inch, FHD, 4U-Lamp, w / o inverter, 120Hz (MEMC)
BN81-02346A A/ST CON T315HW02_V3;T315HW02_V3 BN81-02346A A / ST CON T315HW02_V3; T315HW02_V3

LE37B65* LE37B65 *
BN07-00644A LCD-PANEL;T370HW02 VE BN07-00644A LCD-PANEL; T370HW02 VE
T370HW02 VE,8bit,37 inch,16.7M,16:9,0 to +50,12V,AMVA,72%,37 inch, FHD,10S-Lamp, w/o inverter, 120Hz(MEMC) T370HW02 VE, 8bit, 37 inch, 16.7M, 16:9,0 to +50,12 V, AMVA, 72%, 37 inch, FHD, 10S-Lamp, w / o inverter, 120Hz (MEMC)
BN81-02369A A/ST CON T370HW02_VE;T370HW02_VE BN81-02369A A / ST CON T370HW02_VE; T370HW02_VE

LE40B65* LE40B65 *
BN07-00646A LCD-PANEL;T400HW02 V5 BN07-00646A LCD-PANEL; T400HW02 V5
BN81-02372A A/ST CON T400HW02_V5;T400HW02_V5 BN81-02372A A / ST CON T400HW02_V5; T400HW02_V5
LTF400HF09,8bit,40inch,1.07B,16:9,0.46125(H)*0.15375(w,0 to +50,12V,SPVA 72%,40 inch FHD LTF400HF09, 8bit, 40inch, 1.07B, 16:9,0.46125 (H) * 0.15375 (w, 0 to +50,12 V, SPVA 72%, 40 inch FHD

LE46B65* LE46B65 *
BN07-00666A LCD-PANEL;V460H1-LH5 BN07-00666A LCD-PANEL; V460H1-LH5
BN81-02393A A/ST CON V460H1-LH5;V460H1-LH5 BN81-02393A A / ST CON V460H1-LH5; V460H1-LH5
LTF460HF03,SSEZFT,8bit,46inch,1.07B,16:9,0.53025(H)*0.53025(w,0 to +50,12V,SPVA 75% ZBD,46 inch FHD LTF460HF03, SSEZFT, 8bit, 46inch, 1.07B, 16:9,0.53025 (H) * 0.53025 (w, 0 to +50,12 V, SPVA 75% ZBD, 46 inch FHD

LE55B65* LE55B65 *
BN07-00695A LCD-PANEL;V546H1-L01 BN07-00695A LCD-PANEL; V546H1-L01
V546H1-L01,CM54H11A,10bits,54.6inch,1073.7M,16:9,0 to +50,12V,Flip Pixel,72%,54.6 inch, FHD, 120Hz(MEMC), S/C V546H1-L01, CM54H11A, 10bits, 54.6inch, 1073.7M, 16:9,0 to +50,12 V, Flip Pixel, 72%, 54.6 inch, FHD, 120Hz (MEMC), S / C
BN81-02395A A/ST CON V546H1-LH1;V546H1-LH1 BN81-02395A A / ST CON V546H1-LH1; V546H1-LH1

LE40B62* LE40B62 *
V400H1-LH3,CM40H13A,10bits,40inch,1073.7M,16:9,0 to +50,12V,DJITO, 72%,40 inch, FHD, w/o inverter, 120Hz(MEMC) V400H1-LH3, CM40H13A, 10bits, 40inch, 1073.7M, 16:9,0 to +50,12 V, DJITO, 72%, 40 inch, FHD, w / o inverter, 120Hz (MEMC)
LE46B62* LE46B62 *
T460HW03 V5,AU46H35,8bit,46 inch,16.7M,16:9,0 to +50,12V,AMVA3,72%,46 inch,FHD, 20S-Lamp, 120Hz(MEMC) T460HW03 V5, AU46H35, 8bit, 46 inch, 16.7M, 16:9,0 to +50,12 V, AMVA3, 72%, 46 inch, FHD, 20S-Lamp, 120Hz (MEMC)
LE52B62* LE52B62 *
LTF520HE09,SSNZEI,8bit,52inch,1.06B,16:9,0.6(H)*0.6(w),0 to +50,12V,SPVA 72%,FHD 120Hz(AG) LTF520HE09, SSNZEI, 8bit, 52inch, 1.06B, 16:9,0.6 (H) * 0.6 (w), 0 to +50,12 V, SPVA 72%, FHD 120Hz (AG)

LE40B75* LE40B75 *
BN07-00694B LCD-PANEL;LTF400HG03 BN07-00694B LCD-PANEL; LTF400HG03
BN81-02355A A/ST CON LTF400HG01;LTF400HG01 BN81-02355A A / ST CON LTF400HG01; LTF400HG01

LE46B75* LE46B75 *
BN07-00637A LCD-PANEL;LTF460HG01 BN07-00637A LCD-PANEL; LTF460HG01
BN81-02354A A/ST CON LTF460HG01;LTF460HG01 BN81-02354A A / ST CON LTF460HG01; LTF460HG01

LE52B75* LE52B75 *
BN07-00696A LCD-PANEL;LTF520HH01 BN07-00696A LCD-PANEL; LTF520HH01
BN81-02356A A/ST CON LTF520HH01;LTF520HH01 BN81-02356A A / ST CON LTF520HH01; LTF520HH01

UE40B7000WW UE40B7000WW
BN07-00700B LTF400HF08 SPVA 82% BN07-00700B LTF400HF08 SPVA 82%
BN81-02357A A/ST CON LTF400HF05;LTF400HF05 BN81-02357A A / ST CON LTF400HF05; LTF400HF05
BN07-00734A BN07-00734A

UE46B7000WW UE46B7000WW
BN07-00701B LTF460HF08 SPVA 82% BN07-00701B LTF460HF08 SPVA 82%
BN81-02358A A/ST CON LTF460HF05;LTF460HF05 BN81-02358A A / ST CON LTF460HF05; LTF460HF05
BN07-00735A BN07-00735A

UE55B7000WW UE55B7000WW
BN07-00702B LTF550HF04 SPVA 82% BN07-00702B LTF550HF04 SPVA 82%
BN81-02362A A/ST CON LTF550HF03;LTF550HF03 BN81-02362A A / ST CON LTF550HF03; LTF550HF03
BN07-00736A BN07-00736A

UE40B8000XW UE40B8000XW
M0215 BN07-00698A LCD-PANEL;LTF400HG02 1 SA M0215 BN07-00698A LCD-PANEL; LTF400HG02 1 SA
BN81-02359A A/ST CON LTF400HG02;LTF400HG02 BN81-02359A A / ST CON LTF400HG02; LTF400HG02

UE46B8000XW UE46B8000XW
BN07-00699A LCD-PANEL;LTF460HG02 BN07-00699A LCD-PANEL; LTF460HG02

-------------------------

Like I posted above - there are ways to figuring out what kind of panel you have.
Usually you should be aiming to get the Samsung panel (SPVA), then AUO, and lastly the CMO panel - in terms of viewing angle performance.

1. *Sticker Info (Version #): http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t...02-label-2.jpg
(Back panel sticker) http://farm1.static.flickr.com/245/5...09a460f5c6.jpg
2. **Panel Codename/Firmware: *No longer feasible*
3. Pixel Structure: http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t...l-compare3.jpg
4. Internal Panel: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...8&d=1232646182

*The 'Version' on the sticker can indicate what panel you have (at least what panel that set should have)
Anything starting with the following letters on the Version is:
S = Samsung
A = AUO
C = CMO

At least this is how we add some definition to them;
S= Super
A= Average
C= Crap

Note: In these definitions, they only compile towards it's viewing angles and NOT the actual picture performance as it will differ within the context of the panels


** (No longer feasible)
Vendor (A: AMLCD, D: CMO, L: AUO, I: CPT)-producer
Panel frequency (6:50 / 60Hz, 1:100 / 120Hz, 2:200 / 240Hz)-refresh rate
Panel (A: AG, T: TN U: UC)
Resolution (F: FHD, H: HD, U: UD)-resolution
Panel 1st/2nd (1st: 0, 2nd: 1 ...)
BLU (C: CCFL, L: LED, E: Edge LED)-type backlight


-------------------------
Technology Differences
-------------------------
S-PVA, for example, is comprised of 2 sub-pixels each with 4 domains - so you effectively have 8 domains per pixel.
S-MVA (CMO) is similar.
A-MVA is actually somewhat more complex, but is also comprised of numerous domains per pixel.

S-PVA however will clearly have better color reproduction and off-angle viewing angles than the latter two MVA panels in regards to the comparison with the use of panels currently on the 2009 model line up. Picture quality can be discernible between S-PVA and *-MVA and it's ANSI contrast ratio is somewhat higher due to it's pixel formation and compatibility with Samsung's polarization; optical diffusion and lenses : http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.ph...5&postcount=10

To add contrary, it has been said MVA has it's capability to surpass PVA. AUO and CMO are two Taiwan companies who constantly improve MVA, that differences between PVA and MVA can be quite hard to discern. CMO has been mass producing large LCD panels for quite some time, as AUO just recently started. CMO technologies today are capable of producing picture quality surpassing PVA. However, it is up the supplied manufacturer to choose what type of panel should be used. Clearly Samsung did not choose to use the latest panel offerings from CMO and even AUO. In regards to the other information about CMO below and above, don't think negatively about CMO as they are an innovative company. It's just clear that Samsung decided to use an inferior AUO and CMO panel in their current line up.


http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles...chnologies.htm -> This site can be used for good reference, but keep in mind that some marketing fluff still appears in those descriptions.

Viewing angles on *VA panels is like are aguing about one being 5/10 and the other being 6/10 while IPS panels are 9/10.
But I have also see significant viewing angle variations on different samsung panels. A huge factor is personal tolerance to various issues. Also store conditions make it much harder to see issues (duh) so you can't compare what you see at home to what you see in store.
Bottom line is you can't rely on other peoples subjective opinions about panels. You have to see for yourself, ultimately you can't tell until you have it home. By then it may be too late. So it is a tough minefield to slog trying to get a good Home screen. But still more information never hurts. I want to know what I am buying. (guidryp) And so should you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy41W...eature=related

-------------------------
This has been going on for YEARS
-------------------------
- Link: http://investintaiwan.nat.gov.tw/en/...006110801.html (The Korean government erased it )
- Link: http://www.emsnow.com/npps/story.cfm?pg=story&id=37882

- S, A and C do represent the panels used as other posters have said and there seems little point in Samsung denying this any longer apart from to covering their backs.
They've covered themselves with this fine print: "The manufacturer reserves the right to make changes to product at any moment without notice."

- Link: PROOF for the Issue http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/391/s...servicepa4.jpg

-------------------------
Service Manual (LE)
-------------------------
Service manual isn't 100% accurate: http://s1.dump.ru/file_download/MjQ5...guMTUwLjYzLjI4
Model:
Code:
Model:
LE32B55* LE37B55* LE40B55* LE46B55* LE32B55 * LE37B55 * LE40B55 * LE46B55 *
LE32B65* LE37B65* LE40B65* LE46B65* LE55B65* LE32B65 * LE37B65 * LE40B65 * LE46B65 * LE55B65 *
LE32B57* LE37B57* LE40B57* LE46B57* LE32B57 * LE37B57 * LE40B57 * LE46B57 *
LE32B67* LE37B67* LE40B67* LE46B67* LE55B67* LE32B67 * LE37B67 * LE40B67 * LE46B67 * LE55B67 *
LE40B62* LE46B62* LE52B62* LE40B62 * LE46B62 * LE52B62 *
LE40B75* LE46B75* LE52B75* LE40B75 * LE46B75 * LE52B75 *
--------------------------
Repairing/Replacing
--------------------------

Eg. In cases where S panel sets appear inferior part of the the issue could be the substitution of an A or C panel for an S.
Better watch out!

A lot of these Sammy panel differences can't be appreciated unless you compare them side by side. Unless you can decipher the difference. With high-end LCD's; consumers should expect to get hands on 'Samsung' panels rather than having a PANEL LOTTERY. Try comparing the different sets if you can and you'll have to agree with me

--------------------------
Pricing/Variation/Outsourcing
--------------------------
While there are constant variations from set-to-set; what else can be varied?
- Different panels should use different boards. So at least we know - Samsung does not produce AUO and CMO compatible boards to say the least.
- Some users of the (B650) reported that they had an LED lighting below the Samsung logo. While I do own this particular set, I have NO OPTION whatsoever regarding this LED indicator below the logo. Variation from set-to-set?
- Some say Samsung stopped improving their S-PVA panel (hence MVA is now comparable) but instead improves their UCP (Ultra Clear Panel) otherwise the optical components. http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article...73651/fig8.jpg
- We do know that Samsung uses Chelsea (SDP83) & Arsenal (SDP84) video and audio chips. (Confirmed on the A650/A750)
Note: Well apparently they are using SiliconImage as a cost-effective measure to whatever sets. (We do know they use SiI9287 Port Processor)
Differences unknown but INFOLINK hacking has been useful to many Chelsea&Arsenal chip owners
At the very least here is a Sony's main board on their 32" (This is the only picture I can find) http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article...73651/fig5.jpg
- Pricing; Because Samsung deploys mass outsourcing, is this a reason why their products aren't over-priced? I'm not sure but I'd pay more to get the best possible components (esp. from high-range CCFL-LCD series!)

-----------------------------
Some Pictures
-----------------------------
Viewing Angles:

> You can look at the pictures I posted below. I know it's not that great... so just look at thhowl's pro pics linked below

> Please check this page: http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/98440...69381814_wMcGu
Thanks for all the pictures thhowl! We appreciate it! Model: LN55B650


> *Thanks for the pictures billybob54 Model: LN55B640
L E F T

R I G H T


---------------------------
Picture Performance (S, A, C)
---------------------------
- Will be updating later -


---------------------------
Picture Performance Issues
---------------------------
I'll look forward to adding more information on "S" and "A" panels from other users as I do not have them to test out.

CMO PANELS: RED SMEARING

I've come to realize that "C", the panel that I have on my B650 55", exhibits extreme amounts of red smearing when the picture displays both dark and light colored sources.

- Will update later and post pictures and video's -

Here are great video's that show the problem; thanks k1ng617.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lF1Jz0o_7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yr67Ndh66Y


____________________________________________________________ __
Conclusion = Bad quality control. We consumers aren't stupid

It's up to you! I wish I could return my 55"B650 CMO television for a TV that has good quality control, or something with a PVA panel. But I was too late. So before anyone gets it fixed or anything in regard - be sure you get the best possible panel, possible! We shouldn't even be worrying of the purchase we made... but it's how it is. If you don't care, then simply ignore it!

Well hopefully you guys do understand!
nosepass2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 08:24 AM
Member
 
fallengt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Nice thread !
I went to check my panel and the sticker ins't there ..So I went to Service menu to check panel info :

Quote:


T-LL5MEAN-1003.1

Got no clue what panel is it Can someone tell me
fallengt is offline  
post #3 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 10:24 AM
Member
 
Jack Newbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by shng View Post

I am fully aware of that. As I mentioned in a previous post, I found this S,A,C panel thing over a year ago from somewhere else. Actually the earliest discuission about this matter I found on the internet is from http://www.avforums.com/forums/lcd-t...a-r87-r88.html, and it was started in early 2007, well before that AVS Forum thread was started. It didn't bother me when I first learned about this little secret. Having read many discussions on this issue and found that some just jumped into the conclusion that S > A > C in terms of performance and quality, I become a little concerned, and I decide to dig out more information.

First of all, lets take a look at technologies behind each panel--S-PVA for S, A-MVA for A, and S-MVA for C:
Many cited references of different panel technologies, for example, this Wikipedia article, but also jumped into conclusion that S-PVA panels have advantages in better viewing angle and faster response time over x-MVA. Well, that may no longer hold true today. At least the Wikipedia article mentions that "Modern MVA panels can offer wide viewing angles (second only to S-IPS technology), good black depth, good color reproduction and depth, and fast response times due to the use of RTC (Response Time Compensation) technologies." I also found out that S-MVA is an old technology that CMO was developing between 2000 and 2005. The company has branded its S-MVA based technology as VAextreme since 2005 and also added many new technologies with it. Check out these articles: CMO's Award Winning VAextreme Technologies Mark a New Milestone, CMO Announced the Newest LCD Concept Models & Ten Innovative Display Technologies

One of the newest technologies CMO has added in their new LCD panels is LCS (Low Color Shift), which supposedly can "effectively enhance the color performance of wide angle viewing"--like mentioned in the 54.6"(V546H1) (aka the panel used in 55B650) panel highlight. Note that not all panels from CMO have the latest technologies--some are marked as just S-MVA. For example, the 47"H2(V470H2(120Hz)) panel is marked as "LCS MVA", but 47"K1(V470K1) is just S-MVA. Here's a patent on LCS: Low color shift liquid crystal display and its driving method

BTW, I was at Display Taiwan in June last year, and I checked CMO's LCS panels: they indeed had very good viewing angles and solid 120hz performance. A CMO engineer at the booth that I chat with told me that actually they had had the technologies for a couple of years already by then, it's all up to their OEM TV customers what technologies they want to include in new TV models.

Secondly, A > C?? Both Auo and CMO are Taiwan's big LCD makers, but A > C is not a common knowledge shared in Taiwan's local market. Aside from being big LCD OEM makers, the two companies also make their own brands of LCD TVs for the local market, and they just leapfrog each other in the last few years with new TV models. Two years ago, AUO had a little edge with its new 1080p lineups, but that soon was superseded by CMO with newer 1080p models up to 52". CMO will soon release newest x7000D series up to 55" to the local market, and the panels will be the same 120hz ones it supplied to Samsung for the B650 series. CMO is a clear winner at this moment with newer and better offerings plus big fat contracts with China's TV makers. (Note that AUO had not mass-produced panels larger than 47" until very recently--Q1/2009, and it just released a 52" LCD TV in its own BenQ brand but that is a 8-bit 60hz model and is 2 years behind CMO's 52" offering.)

IMO, the conclusion that S > A > C is ungrounded, and I saw just as many people complaining about similar problems from S panels from the threads that I've read.

Heres a good post with more info.

Im a happy 55B650 C panel owner. Ive seen a S panel 46" model, altho it was in store. But i played with the settings a bit and honestly, i didnt see anything that made me think my set was any worse.
Jack Newbie is offline  
post #4 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 11:08 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
walford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 16,789
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
It is important that when technology manufacturers publish specs about their products that they will often change the individual components within their product as long as the specs they publish for overall consumer product are met.
Often an internal component such as a disk drive from vendor A might have better performance specs then the same capacity disk drive from vendor B. In this case the customer whose product contains vendor A disk drive gets a system whose actual system performance exceeds the published overall systrem specs.
walford is offline  
post #5 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 12:04 PM
Senior Member
 
thhowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Great post, nosepass2. I have posted pictures that show the severe problem with the CMO panels washing out medium darks and dark darks.

They are located at my personal photo site, here: http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/9844056_k8AUN

I will put comments on the photos eventually, but for now:

I owned the 46" B650 with the S-PVA panel for 4 weeks, (LN46B650 / LN46B640 / LN46B630), and I though I noticed it, I could live with the slight wash-out of dark tones at off angles.

I then wanted bigger, so I exchanged it for the 55" B650 (LN55B650) and have had that for 10 days. Even before I knew about the CMO panel, simlpy the first time I watched anything on it (and every time since, after many tweeks) I could not stand how it washed out all medium-dark and dark tones at the slightest off angle -and even washed out the far right and left sides when sitting straight on at THX distances (6 to 9 feet).

The pictures I will be posting of the Samsung LN55B650 are "calibrated" in that they were shot with a digital SLR (Canon 40D), with a human-eye like 44.8mm (after 1.6 crop) , all with the same fixed-exposure, adjusted to human-eye brightness level, all taken at THX sitting distance (and further too), all paused scenes output by a Pioneer BDP-51FD at 1080p/24 (no slouch), from the Blade Runner Blu-Ray "The Final Cut" version (Scenes at 0:4:14, 0:17:01, 0:17:29 if you want to see for yourself - I may be a few days.)

These shots are not about flash-lighting, as that is not a big issue with these panels. These shots are about wash-out of medium-dark and dark tones -a wash out far greater than any flashlighting, and unlike flashlighting, a total experience blower, as the scene is completely changed from what it was meant to be: what was meant to be dark is now just as bright as the bright stuff -and a bluish tint at that! The room was day-lit, so the eye can barely see any flashlighting. But the wash out will blow you away. And it only gets worse when viewing movies in total darkness.

To all owners:
I sincerely hope my experience is worse than yours, and sincerely hope you are happy with yours. My goal is not to make you feel unhappy, but to warn folks who judge a TV only by what they see in store.

To all shoppers, and owners within the return period:
You owe it to yourself to bring a dark movie into the store and ask that they play it for you. Then stand in the middle, head centered on the screen, then focus/pay attention to dark scenes (but not pitch black - pitch black is fine!) and move your entire body side to side. You'll look like an idiot. You'll be the smartest buyer there.

|
|
2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
thhowl is offline  
post #6 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 12:14 PM
Senior Member
 
thhowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Walford, I agree substitutes are common and usually fine if the exact spec is still met. But what is the exact spec?

Here, in this specific case, their advertised spec for viewing angle is either a blatant lie, or a smart omission of the truth, as in: "we didn't mean that that 100+ degree of viewing angle was valid for dark scenes, but only for bright colorful ones, like Playhouse Disney, PBS Kids, and Barney. Oh, and the stuff they show in the stores, where contrast is so high that the only tones are Barney brights and pitch black (crushed blacks). In fact we factory preset them to this garish uber-contrast and tell the stores not to change it -or, if you do, do not show anything with subtle dark tones -or if you do, that's the time to distract the customer and keep him centered on the screen, not allow him to walk side to side."

I have indeed checked uniformity of bright colors, and it is indeed very very good. Pitch black is too. So cartoons look great.

4:3 standard definition TV (SD) looks great too: black bars on left and right hide the problem.

Finally, if you can always sit dead center, (no guest) and at least 10 feet away, it is bearable. It's actually pretty bad to the trained eye -or the person who knows what that particular scene should look like- but it's bearable. (as my pictures will show)

|
|
2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
thhowl is offline  
post #7 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
nosepass2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallengt View Post

Nice thread !
I went to check my panel and the sticker ins't there ..So I went to Service menu to check panel info :


Got no clue what panel is it Can someone tell me

So I checked your post and I'm positive you own the 37" B530?
Checking from the updated post, your set appears to have an A-MVA panel.
I'm not sure if S-PVA panel is used on 37" or any smaller sets.

BN07-00643A LCD-PANEL;T370HW02 VC BN07-00643A LCD-PANEL;
T370HW02 V,8bit,37 inch,16.7M,16:9,0 to +50,12V,AMVA,72%,37 inch, FHD,10S-Lamp, w/o inverter T370HW02 V, 8bit, 37 inch, 16.7M, 16:9,0 to +50,12 V, AMVA, 10S-Lamp, w / o inverter
BN81-02368A A/ST CON T370HW02_VC;T370HW02_VC BN81-02368A A / ST CON T370HW02_VC; T370HW02_VC
nosepass2 is offline  
post #8 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 01:04 PM
Member
 
Jack Newbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

Great post, nosepass2. I will soon be posting pictures that show the severe problem with the CMO panels washing out medium darks and dark darks.

I owned the 46" B650 with the S-PVA panel for 4 weeks, (LN46B650 / LN46B640 / LN46B630), and I though I noticed it, I could live with the slight wash-out of dark tones at off angles.

I then wanted bigger, so I exchanged it for the 55" B650 (LN55B650) and have had that for 10 days. Even before I knew about the CMO panel, simlpy the first time I watched anything on it (and every time since, after many tweeks) I could not stand how it washed out all medium-dark and dark tones at the slightest off angle -and even washed out the far right and left sides when sitting straight on at THX distances (6 to 9 feet).

The pictures I will be posting of the Samsung LN55B650 are "calibrated" in that they were shot with a digital SLR (Canon 40D), with a human-eye like 44.8mm (after 1.6 crop) , all with the same fixed-exposure, adjusted to human-eye brightness level, all taken at THX sitting distance (and further too), all paused scenes output by a Pioneer BDP-51FD at 1080p/24 (no slouch), from the Blade Runner Blu-Ray "The Final Cut" version (Scenes at 0:4:14, 0:17:01, 0:17:29 if you want to see for yourself - I may be a few days.)

These shots are not about flash-lighting, as that is not a big issue with these panels. These shots are about wash-out of medium-dark and dark tones -a wash out far greater than any flashlighting, and unlike flashlighting, a total experience blower, as the scene is completely changed from what it was meant to be: what was meant to be dark is now just as bright as the bright stuff -and a bluish tint at that! The room was day-lit, so the eye can barely see any flashlighting. But the wash out will blow you away. And it only gets worse when viewing movies in total darkness.

To all owners:
I sincerely hope my experience is worse than yours, and sincerely hope you are happy with yours. My goal is not to make you feel unhappy, but to warn folks who judge a TV only by what they see in store.

To all shoppers, and owners within the return period:
You owe it to yourself to bring a dark movie into the store and ask that they play it for you. Then stand in the middle, head centered on the screen, then focus/pay attention to dark scenes (but not pitch black - pitch black is fine!) and move your entire body side to side. You'll look like an idiot. You'll be the smartest buyer there.

Please post the settings and firmware your using as well, id like to see the results. It really sounds like to me you had a defective panel........or i just seem to be lucky with mine. I do consider myself a picky person but i just cant see any of the problems that some people report with this set and the supposed C panel myth.

Angles seem to be fine and unless at an extreme angle, i cant reproduce the washouts or i guess my eyes arent "trained" enough. Definitely no flashlighting, its perfectly uniform. Clouding, non existent. We have 2 couches on angles to the tv with one of them having a head on seat. Distance is 7.5 feet-10 feet. I do have light behind the tv and slightly up but i tend to watch the movies with the light dimmed to pretty much off.

Altho i admit if i had gotten a set with problems i would be pissed too and would probably let alot of people know about it. Taking these things back is a royal pain in the ass, lol.
Jack Newbie is offline  
post #9 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 01:16 PM
 
bk.secret23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wow what a great, lengthy, informative post, nosepass2.

@Jack Newbie: What is this C panel myth? It's quite obvious if I know what you think.

It can be easy to deny but hard to accept. But it's fact and reality...
bk.secret23 is offline  
post #10 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 04:20 PM
Member
 
badbob001's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
From your posted info on the 52B750:
  • The service manual says it uses panel: LTF520HH01
  • Some unspecified updated source(s) say it used panels: LTF520HH01 and LTF520HE09
  • Some sort of complete list says it just uses: LTF520HH01
So it looks like there isn't evidence yet of the 52B750 containing a non-samsung panel.

You also specify that the 52B750 uses 8 bit panels. Where did this information come from?

From this ebay listing, it has a photo of the box label that says the panel is 10 bit.

badbob001 is offline  
post #11 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 04:46 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
walford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 16,789
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
[quote=thhowl;17167448]Walford, I agree substitutes are common and usually fine if the exact spec is still met. But what is the exact spec?
QUOTE]
I think you may have misundestood me. What I was saying was that any changes to internal components can be made as long as the system as sold meets or exceeds the published specs for the system.
For example if you buy a car whose user manual specs say it can go from 0-60 MPH in 6 seconds and the actual unit purchased can go from 0-60 in 5.5 seconds due to use of a diffeent fuel injector tin he car you got does not violate the specs since your car's performance exceeds them.
walford is offline  
post #12 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
nosepass2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by badbob001 View Post

From your posted info on the B750:
  • The service manual says it uses panel: LTF520HH01
  • Some unspecified updated source(s) say it used panels: LTF520HH01 and LTF520HE09
  • Some sort of complete list says it just uses: LTF520HH01
So it looks like there isn't evidence yet of the B750 containing a non-samsung panel.

You also specify that the B750 uses 8 bit panels. Where did this information come from?

Yes, the LTF520HH01 appears to be the main panel version for all B750's. These sources are from Samsung owners from several different threads.
While it hasn't been stated, the LTF520HE09 might as well be a 'different' version of the LTF520HH01 considering the only difference is a number. They do have the same specs. Misprinting perhaps?

I'm sure all 52" B750 use one panel (S-PVA) but the other common sizes (40" and 46") use a combination of Samsung, AUO, and CMO panels (as assumed). While this is widespread, we still have to be certain in which market these panels are used in as well. Given the fact that mostly all other series contain different panels, we can't easily say the B750 isn't involved.

While some of the information may not be accurate, most consensus lead to a 8-bit panel (service menu & manual & and of course customer reference - viral). A printing on a sticker can also be inaccurate. Until we get more B750 comparisons... we won't truly know.
(I don't think we should worry much about 8-bit vs 10-bit. Just assume it's 10-bit...)
nosepass2 is offline  
post #13 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 09:47 PM
Senior Member
 
thhowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

Walford, I agree substitutes are common and usually fine if the exact spec is still met. But what is the exact spec?

I think you may have misundestood me. What I was saying was that any changes to internal components can be made as long as the system as sold meets or exceeds the published specs for the system.
For example if you buy a car whose user manual specs say it can go from 0-60 MPH in 6 seconds and the actual unit purchased can go from 0-60 in 5.5 seconds due to use of a diffeent fuel injector tin he car you got does not violate the specs since your car's performance exceeds them.

No, you misunderstood me. I was saying I agree, but that does not apply here.

Your example of 0-60 MPH is a good example of an exact spec. The car either makes it on time or it doesn't. On the other hand, there is no exact spec for "170 degree angle of viewing", and I propose that they meant "looks good at an angle for Barney the Dinosaur, not Blade Runner." This panel does not meet it's spec by *my* interpretation of the spec: "looks good in all kinds of scenes, not just bright colorful ones".

|
|
2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
thhowl is offline  
post #14 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 09:53 PM
 
bk.secret23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Unfortunately specifications are usually or always false, incorrect, and misleading to a certain extent.
bk.secret23 is offline  
post #15 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 10:10 PM
Senior Member
 
thhowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Newbie View Post

Please post the settings and firmware your using as well, id like to see the results. It really sounds like to me you had a defective panel........[...]

Too late: it's already back in it's box.

But instead of asking me to provide more info, where's your settings? Wouldn't that have helped me? What's *your* firmware version?

LOL. Just a friendly jab. Don't worry about me.

But seriously: Firmware cannot fix a hardware problem: the problem of blue light reflecting out of the screen at an angle. Blue light you don't see from straight on, but see when at an angle. Blue light you don't see when one or more of the red green or blue sub-pixels are at full brightness, (bright scenes) but do see when all three of the sub-pixels are dimmed greatly. You know, it's all shiny material in there -and LCDs (liquid crystal diodes) are just walls that come up -so it looks like they're shiny walls, that the light is bouncing off of -or wait, since the lamp is white, and the off-angle glow is blue, it must actually be refraction, not reflection -or what's the name of that, when light goes over a sharp edge and some of the colors separated and bent ---hmmm, like the sharp edge of a liquid crystal diode... Anyway....


I know I had the latest firmware, and I know I tried every combination of the entire range of settings. (within reason, of course - no one likes Contrast at zero, LOL)

|
|
2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
thhowl is offline  
post #16 of 933 Old 09-12-2009, 11:36 PM
Senior Member
 
thhowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I had forgotten that someone else reported the exact same issue with the Samsung 55" as I am:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16814392

Buyer beware.

|
|
2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
thhowl is offline  
post #17 of 933 Old 09-13-2009, 12:02 AM
Member
 
Jack Newbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bk.secret23 View Post

Wow what a great, lengthy, informative post, nosepass2.

@Jack Newbie: What is this C panel myth? It's quite obvious if I know what you think.

It can be easy to deny but hard to accept. But it's fact and reality...

The myth that its crap. Or is it more myth that people get a rare C panel that looks very good?

Ive been watching various movies all night, trying different combos of settings and i even changed the lighting of the room. This set just does a great job. I guess ill just say im glad i dont have the problems that others have had and leave it at that, lol.
Jack Newbie is offline  
post #18 of 933 Old 09-13-2009, 12:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
nosepass2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Newbie View Post

The myth that its crap. Or is it more myth that people get a rare C panel that looks very good?

Ive been watching various movies all night, trying different combos of settings and i even changed the lighting of the room. This set just does a great job. I guess ill just say im glad i dont have the problems that others have had and leave it at that, lol.

You seem confused, let alone contradict yourself. You say it's a myth (awkward word of choice) and yet admit that some people experience problems with it.

Please define your meaning of "looks very good" more clearly. We all have individual expectations; and your meaning of 'good' could be defined as 'not so great' to another person. Before you start yapping about informally calling us 'liars' 'invented' and 'deceit', please be more considerate to us regardless of our differences in viewpoints.

I'd appreciate it if you can post pictures. Clearly there should not be variation from angles with comparison to MVA technology. I'll admit that the B650 is a very performing set - but there are some serious con's, and NOT acceptable with how it turned out to be with all these panel mix-ups.
nosepass2 is offline  
post #19 of 933 Old 09-13-2009, 05:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
domingos1965's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
NOSEPASS2

what panel does the LG 55LH90 LED use?
i am looking to buy this tv

thanks
domingos1965 is offline  
post #20 of 933 Old 09-13-2009, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
nosepass2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by domingos1965 View Post

NOSEPASS2

what panel does the LG 55LH90 LED use?
i am looking to buy this tv

thanks

I don't really know much about what LG uses, or there aren't any sources claiming that their doing the same practices as Samsung.
The 55LH90 is a very good set!
nosepass2 is offline  
post #21 of 933 Old 10-02-2009, 06:59 PM
 
bk.secret23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Can people post some more pictures, especially showing how bad the viewing angles are?

Thanks
bk.secret23 is offline  
post #22 of 933 Old 10-02-2009, 07:01 PM
Senior Member
 
thhowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah, I've got some good ones taken -just haven't had time to post them. Might get to posting one tomorrow.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post17167407

|
|
2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
thhowl is offline  
post #23 of 933 Old 10-02-2009, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
nosepass2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Oops, forgot to post these pictures. Here you go:





nosepass2 is offline  
post #24 of 933 Old 10-02-2009, 07:26 PM
Senior Member
 
thhowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's worse than that even.

What is showing above (in all except the 2 with images) is mainly bleed through ("flashlights") as the screen is displaying no image at all, and these CMO panels do very well with pitch black. Its near-blacks that suffer the most.

The camera also boosted the brightness with it's auto-exposure setting. I'm sure nosepass can confrm that, in real life, the dark side of the screen is actually closer to pitch black, making the bright side even more different than the left side, even more noticeable. This LCD produces such good pure blacks -when viewed straight on- that the wash out of near-blacks at off angles is very intrusive -much more than a TV with less good blacks but at least even blacks.

Sorry it takes me less time to chat here then to post good, true-to-life pictures. But it really does.

|
|
2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
thhowl is offline  
post #25 of 933 Old 10-02-2009, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
nosepass2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

It's worse than that even.

What is showing above (in all except the 2 with images) is mainly bleed through ("flashlights") as the screen is displaying no image at all, and these CMO panels do very well with pitch black. Its near-blacks that suffer the most.

The camera also boosted the brightness with it's auto-exposure setting. I'm sure nosepass can confrm that, in real life, the dark side of the screen is actually closer to pitch black, making the bright side even more different than the left side, even more noticeable. This LCD produces such good pure blacks -when viewed straight on- that the wash out of near-blacks at off angles is very intrusive -much more than a TV with less good blacks but at least even blacks.

Sorry it takes me less time to chat here then to post good, true-to-life pictures. But it really does.

Yes, I'll confirm that they were taken with auto-exposure shots. The 'darker' sides are uniform and pitch dark. Especially head on;
http://yfrog.com/7gimg0590oj

But the panel suffers in quick shade degradation with slight viewing angles.
nosepass2 is offline  
post #26 of 933 Old 10-03-2009, 10:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
S. Hiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah, the panel lottery is terrible for consumers. It makes it so we cannot necessarily rely on professional reviews or other user experiences...
S. Hiller is offline  
post #27 of 933 Old 10-03-2009, 10:11 PM
Senior Member
 
thhowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
As promised in post #5, I have posted pictures that show the severe problem with the CMO panels washing out medium darks and dark darks.

Please read the foreword:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

The pictures I will be posting of the Samsung LN55B650 are "calibrated" in that they were shot with a digital SLR (Canon 40D), with a human-eye like 44.8mm (after 1.6 crop) , all with the same fixed-exposure, adjusted to human-eye brightness level, all taken at THX sitting distance (and further too), all paused scenes output by a Pioneer BDP-51FD at 1080p/24 (no slouch), from the Blade Runner Blu-Ray "The Final Cut" version (Scenes at 0:4:14, 0:17:01, 0:17:29 if you want to see for yourself - I may be a few days.)

These shots are not about flash-lighting, as that is not a big issue with these panels. These shots are about wash-out of medium-dark and dark tones -a wash out far greater than any flashlighting, and unlike flashlighting, a total experience blower, as the scene is completely changed from what it was meant to be: what was meant to be dark is now just as bright as the bright stuff -and a bluish tint at that! The room was day-lit, so the eye can barely see any flashlighting. But the wash out will blow you away. And it only gets worse when viewing movies in total darkness.

The above comments about "fixed exposure" and "THX distance" apply to a few sets of these pictures. I ended up posting many more than planned -and not *all* of them are the same exposure, nor at THX distances. I will sometime point out the key sets that are at fixed exposure and THX distance. You can also view the EXIF info of each photo -the exposure settings- with "Info" (you'll find it)

The pictures are located here: http://howland.smugmug.com/Other/Bad...msung-LN55B650

Feel free to leave comments right there on the photo site, under any image of interest. (When posting a comment you get to chose whethere it's a comment for the specific picture or for the entire gallery.)

|
|
2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
thhowl is offline  
post #28 of 933 Old 10-04-2009, 03:51 AM
 
HiFiFun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
This explains why there are so many private model numbers at stores. They cost less but have cheaper panels, so the consumer is not really saving anything.

Could this be considered a bait and switch tactic by the manufacture?
Or could is it best considered equivalent to a counterfeit with their inferior quality?
Remember it is all done for profit (like the deceptive phrase LED TV).

Even the "genuine" Samsung manufactured thin panels have all sorts of uniformity issues.

This is why it is next to impossible to recommend Samsung as each individual display needs to be thoroughly evaluated.
HiFiFun is offline  
post #29 of 933 Old 10-04-2009, 05:06 PM
 
bk.secret23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

This explains why there are so many private model numbers at stores. They cost less but have cheaper panels, so the consumer is not really saving anything.

Could this be considered a bait and switch tactic by the manufacture?
Or could is it best considered equivalent to a counterfeit with their inferior quality?
Remember it is all done for profit (like the deceptive phrase LED TV).

Even the "genuine" Samsung manufactured thin panels have all sorts of uniformity issues.

This is why it is next to impossible to recommend Samsung as each individual display needs to be thoroughly evaluated.

I'd say it's a bait and switch tactic.
Either way, Samsung is not so 'great' anymore.
bk.secret23 is offline  
post #30 of 933 Old 10-05-2009, 12:43 AM
Senior Member
 
bill4903485's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

As promised in post #5, I have posted pictures that show the severe problem with the CMO panels washing out medium darks and dark darks.

Great job. That perfectly illustrates the problem. I personally find the CMO panels hard on the eyes too.

In some ways the B650 is a step down from the A650. Yet we've been conditioned to always accept the latest and newest version as the best.

I personally decided to skip the LN52B750 and head straight to the LN52A750. I'm going to wait for the panel lottery, false LED marketing, and super-thin edge-lit stuff to wear out its welcome. I have more faith in the average consumer than Samsung does.
bill4903485 is offline  
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off