Originally Posted by Beeper
Even though film is 24fps, movie theater projectors convert it to 48fps or 72fps by showing duplicate frames or shuttering each frame twice.
Heh, you learn something every day. =P
Originally Posted by Shin CZ
I've been telling them that asides from true 24fps playback, all the sets behave exactly the same as a 60hz.
It's ONLY when you turn on the motion enhancement that you get some real benefit of 120hz/240hz. This is especially so for those TV's like the Samsung B750 that separate blur reduction and dejudder. So if you want a TV that won't add the soap opera effect but add the blur reduction qualities of 120hz and 240hz, buy a set that can separate them and allow you to turn them on/off independently.
All this means is that the people who buy 120hz/240hz without ever using motion enhancement (at LEAST blur reduction), are throwing money away when they could've easily just got a beastly 60hz set. The only thing they are getting is correct 1080p/24 playback.
You forget that company's put better panels into the higher end models, and have better quality control for things like flashlighting.
Honestly I think blur reduction is a bad idea it effects the natural motion blur that was part of the film. Pause a frame from a movie and you will see its blurred depending on the amount of motion. It has to do with how long the shutter on the film camera was open, the ISO sensitivity of the film and some other stuff. When you interpolate frames together you loose that effect, which is why it ends up looking like a soap opera. It effects lip syncing too depending on how 120/240hz is implemented or in Samsung's case the strength of the blur reduction/judder reduction setting.
Some 60hz sets can do 48hz (or 2:2 pull-down). That way you still get correct 24fps playback.
Originally Posted by walford
How many hudreds of $ more are you willing to pay for a LCD HDTV in the US that can display multiple frame rates?
I am not willing to spend a dime.
Maybe you don't remember that Multiscan rate PC monitors cost twice as much as standard TVs with size screens sevreal years ago
Most US TV's can do 24hz 30hz 60hz(interlaced) and 60hz. The only thing were missing is 50hz.
My first monitor was a Philips 107S1 which I bought in 1999 (I was 12), so I don't really remember. =P
Originally Posted by Shin CZ
Well with the ability to separate blur reduction and dejudder, TV's that can display multiple frames allows for higher motion resolutions = less blur.
60hz: 300-400 lines of motion resolution.
2009 plasmas: All 1080 lines.
So with a 240hz TV, you can get near plasma like motion handling. This IMHO is only truly worth it if you can get it without the soap opera effect, which TVs like the Samsung B750 does correctly.
I'm not sure what you mean by lines of motion. The TV is suppose to display whatever the source material has(pixel for pixel and frame for frame).
I think what people are calling 'Motion Resolution' is being confused with Response Time. When you turn on the motion enhancement feature of LCD's not only does it interpolate frames, it also gives it longer to analyze the motion and figure out a better way to 'Overdrive' the pixels therefor decreasing the response time.
You also get the extra frames from the interpolation going on, but I don't think that's why your seeing better motion resolution.
I get the soap opera effect on my B750 with the latest firmware. I don't think there is any way to avoid it with this type of image processing.
LCD overdriving is achieved by analyzing the motion beforehand and deciding which pixels on the screen to supply a increased voltage to. Therefor increasing response time.
This sounds like a really excellent idea on paper, but in practice the extra time required for motion analysis adds input lag.
By the way, anything over about 65fps the human mind can't process, and LCD's don't flicker...so it makes you wonder what the heck the point of 120/240hz is. If it accepted a 120hz input then it would be good for use with 3D shutter glasses, but manufactures are stupid.
Originally Posted by ymarker
So to avoid the soap opera effect for someone who watches blu-ray (24p) and plays games on the pc (can I really get 240hz from my pc to output to the samsung), which samsung led would you guys recommend?
1.) No current Samsung actually supports 240hz input. They all take whats input; 24,30,50,60,72, or 85hz and convert it to 240hz using image processing(The tv will only accept 72-85hz in lower resolutions such as 800x600).
2.) Stay away from Samsung's current LED back lit displays, almost all of them have very noticeable flashlighting.
Originally Posted by Owen
Normal LCD's cant flicker because there is no blanking between frames so 24Hz is not a problem as far as flicker is concerned.
I wonder what 24fps would look like on a LCD without any pull-down(1:1).
Originally Posted by gbmannc
The problem is there is no such thing as a high end 60 hz set anymore. People forget they are not just spending money for higher hertz but for better picture quality in general. Take the samsung series for example. The 60 hz 5 series has noticeably lower picture quality than the 120 hz 6 series (color, contrast ratio, black level etc.). There is nothing in between.
I wonder if going into the service menu and changing my model number to a 5 series number would disable 120/240hz. Maybe I'll try it next time I'm feeling risky.
Originally Posted by frito
no your PC will only beable to output 24 or 60 hz at 1920 x 1080 to any LCD TV
the samsungs are generally not the best for gaming because of excess input lag, most people dont notice it much in game mode (motion enhancer will be off in this mode) but FPS games can make it more apparent esp if played online
Sharps tend to be the most consistant and fastest with input lag mostly because they all use IPS panels that are faster than PVA panels with input lag, but lack the same level of picture quality and black levels of samsung/sony's PVA panels, LG also uses IPS panels but lately they have been switching many models to PVA panels and the input lag is like samsungs at around 40-60 ms in game modes
if you turn on a motion enhancer the lag will jump over 100 ms and you will notice it alot on most any type of game and with mouse cursor movements
You can do 30hz 60hz and 60hz interlaced and 72-85hz in low resolutions(and 50hz if your in a PAL region).
From what I've read in the forums Sharps don't calibrate very well. The Panasonic LCD's with IPS-Provectus are also really good.
According the the audio lag offset in the service menu Samsung's have a 40ms input lag in game mode. And my own tests showed 47ms. So I would say 40-47.
In normal mode the service menu audio lag offset is 89ms and my tests showed 92-109ms.
Also some sets don't actually do 120/240hz. Instead they use a scanning backlight to simulate the effect(just another thing to keep in mind).
Does anyone have a high fps digicam? I'm really interested on seeing what 120/240hz sets look like with the effect off/on.