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post #181 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

*sigh*. Then you probably think that the sound from your 1019 with DTSHD/TrueHD sound better than all legacy format AVRs just because of the bandwidth.

do your research. In all honestly, you probably couldn't tell the diff between 720p to 1080p.

How do all your electronics work at your location?
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post #182 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

I'll say once again... there is zero difference between 1080i and 1080p. Especially for 24fps film or 30fps standard hdtv. All marketing hype.

Guys,

I think that most of the "debate" in this thread is stemming from a lack of education about the new official HD3D standard that the BDA just finalized, which the video industry has adopted for all products such as DSS boxes, HDTVs etc. in addition to the BDA-governed Blu-ray devices.

We've *always* had the ability to do half-baked 3-D, which includes tricks like red/blue color filters for each eye (truly horrid) and trying to "weave" both left and right eye signals into a single video stream using alternating fields.

Both of those methods are substandard.

It should be obvious to anyone who's ever used red/blue glasses what's wrong with not getting actual color in your HD movie.

As far as the odd/even 1080i method... the problem isn't that a 1080p60 doesn't have room enough for all the picture content of two 1080p24 signals (since technically 1080p48 would be enough bandwidth), the problem is that HDMI 1.3 doesn't have any sort of meta-data or flag that would instruct the receiving display when the 1080 signal was a "regular" signal and when it needed to be treated differently because it was actually combined with both left and right eye information weaved together.

That's the problem with HDMI 1.3... there's no "standard" or spec for how to handle dual left/right eye information in the video stream because they finalized the spec before the 3D issue was worked through.

The answer?

Well, when you change the spec you need to change the HDMI chipset since you need to ensure that products will be able to handle the signal without hiccup or problems... hence HDMI 1.4. Basically, HDMI 1.4 is the same bandwidth as 1.3, but it adds the meta-data to allow *two* distinct 1080p signals to be sent together in such a way that the HDTV can *see* them as two distinct 1080p signals.

So the problem with something that's only HDMI 1.3 is that since there's no standard or industry-agreed way to ship left/right eye 1080 HD over HDMI 1.3, there's no way of knowing if any particular 3D HD source will actually work with the display. Presumably, the display would have some way of analyzing the incoming video stream to try to identify some sort of field/frame cadence to try to figure out when a signal is comprised of two interweaved left/right images, but no TV manufacturer has really stated this. In this case, you'd have to assume that the best the TV can do is just "slave" to the incoming "3D" HDMI 1.3 signal and hope for the best... but since the LCD Shutter glasses need the TV's signal to sync with for left/right alternation, it gets really tricky.

HDMI 1.4 solves all these problems because it delivers two real 1080p signals to the TV in a way that the TV recognizes and can deal with.

Then the TV can do cool things like maybe do frame interpolation to up-sample each eye to 120 Hz (if the set is 240Hz) etc.... stuff you could never do if the TV just had to slave in HDMI 1.3 mode.

These are the facts gentlemen... our new HD3D standard has finally arrived and will be discussed heavily at CES. And only HDMI 1.4 devices can deliver FULL HD 1080p quality to each eye... HDMI 1.3 displays will be stuck with some sort of compromised version of 3D that doesn't deserve to be advertised as "3D" now that we actually do have a real 3D standard that has been set by the industry.

If the industry polices the manufacturers as it should, you should only be seeing the HD3D logo (you can see it at the digital bits.com) on true HDMI 1.4 products that can do full 1080p per each eye and properly identify and handle dual-channel HD 1080p video.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #183 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:33 PM
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do your research. In all honestly, you probably couldn't tell the diff between 720p to 1080p.

This is absolutely false. 1080p is strikingly superior to 720p when viewed at the proper viewing angle (less than 2 screen widths distance). 4K looks even better. Your human eye can see the difference between 300dpi and 600 dpi from a laser printer on a sheet of paper held out 1.5 feet in front of your face, which is 2-screen widths for comparison in the video analogy. Your eyes are discerning much more detail than even 1080p can deliver.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #184 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Guys,

I think that most of the "debate" in this thread is stemming from a lack of education about the new official HD3D standard that the BDA just finalized, which the video industry has adopted for all products such as DSS boxes, HDTVs etc. in addition to the BDA-governed Blu-ray devices.

We've *always* had the ability to do half-baked 3-D, which includes tricks like red/blue color filters for each eye (truly horrid) and trying to "weave" both left and right eye signals into a single video stream using alternating fields.

Both of those methods are substandard.

It should be obvious to anyone who's ever used red/blue glasses what's wrong with not getting actual color in your HD movie.

As far as the odd/even 1080i method... the problem isn't that a 1080p60 doesn't have room enough for all the picture content of two 1080p24 signals (since technically 1080p48 would be enough bandwidth), the problem is that HDMI 1.3 doesn't have any sort of meta-data or flag that would instruct the receiving display when the 1080 signal was a "regular" signal and when it needed to be treated differently because it was actually combined with both left and right eye information weaved together.

That's the problem with HDMI 1.3... there's no "standard" or spec for how to handle dual left/right eye information in the video stream because they finalized the spec before the 3D issue was worked through.

The answer?

Well, when you change the spec you need to change the HDMI chipset since you need to ensure that products will be able to handle the signal without hiccup or problems... hence HDMI 1.4. Basically, HDMI 1.4 is the same bandwidth as 1.3, but it adds the meta-data to allow *two* distinct 1080p signals to be sent together in such a way that the HDTV can *see* them as two distinct 1080p signals.

So the problem with something that's only HDMI 1.3 is that since there's no standard or industry-agreed way to ship left/right eye 1080 HD over HDMI 1.3, there's no way of knowing if any particular 3D HD source will actually work with the display. Presumably, the display would have some way of analyzing the incoming video stream to try to identify some sort of field/frame cadence to try to figure out when a signal is comprised of two interweaved left/right images, but no TV manufacturer has really stated this. In this case, you'd have to assume that the best the TV can do is just "slave" to the incoming "3D" HDMI 1.3 signal and hope for the best... but since the LCD Shutter glasses need the TV's signal to sync with for left/right alternation, it gets really tricky.

HDMI 1.4 solves all these problems because it delivers two real 1080p signals to the TV in a way that the TV recognizes and can deal with.

Then the TV can do cool things like maybe do frame interpolation to up-sample each eye to 120 Hz (if the set is 240Hz) etc.... stuff you could never do if the TV just had to slave in HDMI 1.3 mode.

These are the facts gentlemen... our new HD3D standard has finally arrived and will be discussed heavily at CES. And only HDMI 1.4 devices can deliver FULL HD 1080p quality to each eye... HDMI 1.3 displays will be stuck with some sort of compromised version of 3D that doesn't deserve to be advertised as "3D" now that we actually do have a real 3D standard that has been set by the industry.




If the industry polices the manufacturers as it should, you should only be seeing the HD3D logo (you can see it at the digital bits.com) on true HDMI 1.4 products that can do full 1080p per each eye and properly identify and handle dual-channel HD 1080p video.



So are you saying ppl should wait until HDMI 1.4 is available? And will everything thats 1.3 be compatible ( ps3 blu ray players etc ) or is everything going to need an upgrade
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post #185 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

Why don't you guys realize that Vizio's announcement is merely a marketing stunt????

Not to say that they won't release a $3.5k 72" LED backlit set in 2010, but that better sets won't be released by this years end? I enjoy kool-aid from time to time, but in the end, the 72-incher won't be an enthusiast product, just like the 551, it'll be a larger Costco "high-end" offering.... fun but, meh... I can't wait till Sony announces the successor to the XBR8... even though that won't be until May.... I've got my fingers crossed that Canon will show an SED monitor...

XStreamHD were launching in 3D as well. Wait they are vaporware from CES of 2008....at least Micheal Douglas will look good in 3d
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post #186 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mj79 View Post

So are you saying ppl should wait until HDMI 1.4 is available? And will everything thats 1.3 be compatible ( ps3 blu ray players etc ) or is everything going to need an upgrade

IF you want FULL 3DHD, yes you will upgrade

IF you do not want FULL 3DHD you will not upgrade

Sherwood has announced an audio 7.1 receiver that has hdmi 1.4 - our home that is a positive step

so yes on sound and video wait until hdmi 1.4 is in all parts of your home theater

and wait for the PS4 and the xbox whatever they is to be called too
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post #187 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

This is absolutely false. 1080p is strikingly superior to 720p when viewed at the proper viewing angle (less than 2 screen widths distance). 4K looks even better. Your human eye can see the difference between 300dpi and 600 dpi from a laser printer on a sheet of paper held out 1.5 feet in front of your face, which is 2-screen widths for comparison in the video analogy. Your eyes are discerning much more detail than even 1080p can deliver.

when you get about 6 feet away from the screen or more and it has been said the eye cannot readily discern the difference between 720p or 1080p. But im no expert, only what I have read here on avs
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post #188 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dhhd89 View Post

IF you want full 3DHD, yes you will not upgrade

Sherwood has announced an audio 7.1 receiver that has hdmi 1.4 - our home that is a positive step

so yes on sound and video wait until hdmi 1.4 is in all parts of your home theater

and wait for the PS4 and the xbox whatever they is to be called too

that Sony has already announced the PS3 will be 3D ready via a firmware upgrade? its only a 1.3 hdmi chip.

And Sherwood? Are we talking about the forest ?
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post #189 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Suzook View Post

when you get about 6 feet away from the screen or more and it has been said the eye cannot readily discern the difference between 720p or 1080p. But im no expert, only what I have read here on avs

You're clearly not an expert. You didn't even say what size screen, as six feet away from a 30 inch HD screen might not show a difference between 720p and 1080p, but six feet away from a 50 inch HDTV certainly would.

That's why the proper way to comment on distance is the viewing angle/ratio of screen width to your distance (ie, 1.5 screen-widths away) as that remains constant no matter what size screen you're talking about.

Yes, you can read about this at AVS too...

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #190 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Suzook View Post

that Sony has already announced the PS3 will be 3D ready via a firmware upgrade? its only a 1.3 hdmi chip.

And Sherwood? Are we talking about the forest ?


Guys, RE READ MY POST ABOUT 3D.

The "update" for the PS3 is not promised to deliver the full 1080p per each eye as you will have with HDMI 1.4. Most likely the update for the PS3 will use a compromised (but hopefully still watchable) alternative like interweaving two 1080i streams etc. With the update the PS3 will be able to play and *decode* the dual video streams from a 3D blu-ray Disc, but it won't be able to transmit the dual 1080p discrete signal to your HD3D display since it's not HDMI 1.4, so some sort of downgrade will be necessary to conform to HDMI 1.3. Engaget already talked about this issue with the PS3's "3D upgrade".

Apparently, we'll be seeing "3D" appearing in all sorts of places meaning all sorts of different things. For that matter, they could still call something 3D if you had to use red/blue glasses.

Look for HD3D to designate full-quality 1080p 3D.

For True 1080p for each eye you'll need HDMI 1.4

These are the facts.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #191 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 09:58 PM
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I know the equation for measuring it quite well but wasn't going into a long diatribe over it. Using a standard 50 inch screen as an example would be evidence enough. I am sure the argument over the iris being able to discern the difference between 720p and 1080p at DISTANCES OVER SIX FEET WITH A 50 inch panel will be raging on long after this Vizio is released. You right, im no more an expert than you are but my 20/10 vision which sits 10 feet from my 65 inch 1080p plasma likes what he sees regardless.
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post #192 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:00 PM
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boy CES is here, who's excited
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post #193 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:02 PM
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Sorry for the off topic here , but just curious.. I bought my 52A750 and all my audio speakers and components this year so im not in need of an upgrade but , How long before the whole 1.4 switch?> Im sure ps4 ( or whatever Its gonna be called ) is around 2012 or so, But as far as "mainstream" TVs and Receivers for HT, Is that in the works for the next year or 2 as the "next step" in HD?
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post #194 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mj79 View Post

So are you saying ppl should wait until HDMI 1.4 is available? And will everything thats 1.3 be compatible ( ps3 blu ray players etc ) or is everything going to need an upgrade

If someone is planning on dropping what they feel is a large amount of money of any AV gear in the near future, and they care about 3D, then YES, they should be sure that they're buying devices that are HDMI 1.4 equipped or at least compatible. It's yet to be seen if you'll be able to "pass though" a 3D signal from one HDMI 1.4 device to another with an HDMI 1.3 device sitting in the middle between them (like a receiver used for switching). But the short answer is that if you care about 3D, going forward be sure anything you buy is HDMI 1.4

The update for the PS3 isn't going to allow full 1080pHD for each eye as you'd get with a new HDMI 1.4 blu-ray player, the PS3 will have to compromise the signal in some way to pass over HDMI 1.3 so it won't be of the same quality.

Of course, if you have a PS3, you have nothing to loose by playing around with the update and seeing what it looks like before you upgrade your BD player. However, anything NEW that you buy, be sure it's HDMI 1.4 from this point forward.

Otherwise you'll feel like the guys who walked home with a bran-new pro-logic receiver to use with their new DVD player... not realizing that they needed a dolby digital receiver to get the full 5.1 on the DVD.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #195 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mj79 View Post

Sorry for the off topic here , but just curious.. I bought my 52A750 and all my audio speakers and components this year so im not in need of an upgrade but , How long before the whole 1.4 switch?> Im sure ps4 ( or whatever Its gonna be called ) is around 2012 or so, But as far as "mainstream" TVs and Receivers for HT, Is that in the works for the next year or 2 as the "next step" in HD?

Wait for CES. I'm sure since HDMI 1.4 is needed for boni-fide 3D HDTVs etc. that we'll see some receivers with HDMI 1.4 as well. They shouldn't cost any more... the chip isn't any more expensive... it's just a matter of protocol to make sure that the signal is properly handled all the way through the signal chain. Another "cheat" that some folks are hoping for is the ability to run an HDMI 1.4 cable directly to your HDTV from your BD player or cable box to get full 3D, and then use a second HDMI 1.3 output to your receiver to pass audio. That would be a GREAT short-term solution for anyone who has a great receiver and doesn't want to upgrade just because they need HDMI 1.4 pass-through.

Both Sony and Panasonic also have an audio-gear side and the whole industry has been aware of the HDMI 1.4 thing coming this year long before we were talking about it here... so rest assured HDMI 1.4 audio gear is coming soon.

BTW, keep in mind that the reason that manufacturers don't talk about this stuff way ahead of time is because if they did, everyone would stop buying their products! So basically they pretend like nothing's going on, and then all of a sudden when they've ramped up production of the new gear, at some point they leak the new product specs when they feel it's in their financial favor for folks to feel discouraged about buying their old stuff and wait for their new stuff.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #196 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:08 PM
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3D? I'm not wearing those dippy glasses.
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post #197 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:14 PM
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well hopefully when all this lovely 3D gear you speak of comes out the economy will have recovered so we can actually buy it
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post #198 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Ball View Post

3D? I'm not wearing those dippy glasses.

Did you see Avatar in 3D? Did you wear the glasses?


Quote:


IF you want full 3DHD, yes you will not upgrade

Sherwood has announced an audio 7.1 receiver that has hdmi 1.4 - our home that is a positive step

so yes on sound and video wait until hdmi 1.4 is in all parts of your home theater

and wait for the PS4 and the xbox whatever they is to be called too

The funny thing is that Sherwood was the first receiver to provide DTS decoding in addition to Dolby Digital back in the late 1990s when DVD was the new thing. I worked in AV at the time and we sold Onkyo which stubbornly refused to pay DTS royalties and add DTS decoding to their gear for a good while... was really frustrating as I'd send folks to another store to buy the Sherwood receiver instead!

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #199 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:16 PM
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I just noticed the 58inch model as well. one sexy beast
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post #200 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:18 PM
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post #201 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:21 PM
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I just noticed the 58inch model as well. one sexy beast

I love the ideal of native 2.35:1 HDTVs and projectors... I wish this trend would hit some front-projectors too which would make it so much more cost effective to go constant-height 2.35!

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #202 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Suzook View Post

that Sony has already announced the PS3 will be 3D ready via a firmware upgrade? its only a 1.3 hdmi chip.

And Sherwood? Are we talking about the forest ?

www.sherwoodamerica.com

info at this link http://www.satelliteguys.us/2010-ces...es-2010-a.html

RD-7505
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post #203 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:21 PM
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This may not be the best thread of 2010, but it might be the best thread of January. Ha ha!
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post #204 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:21 PM
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Can't wait to get there tomorrow.

you shipped my Pioneer before you left
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post #205 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

I love the ideal of native 2.35:1 HDTVs and projectors... I wish this trend would hit some front-projectors too which would make it so much more cost effective to go constant-height 2.35!

only 120hz and who knows what other short comings, wake me up when they have one at 75 inches and full3dhd and all the standards

i know the price beats hands down any other tv in same size etc, BUT they at least (hopefully) use the latest specs / standards - if vizio uses the latest announced specs / standards - then that would be great
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post #206 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:22 PM
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www.sherwoodamerica.com

info at this link http://www.satelliteguys.us/2010-ces...es-2010-a.html

RD-7505

Im sorry it was a lame thing to say. I know who Sherwood is. Just not a brand you hear much of lately. But hey props on them for stepping up !!!
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post #207 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Wait for CES. I'm sure since HDMI 1.4 is needed for boni-fide 3D HDTVs etc. that we'll see some receivers with HDMI 1.4 as well. They shouldn't cost any more... the chip isn't any more expensive... it's just a matter of protocol to make sure that the signal is properly handled all the way through the signal chain. Another "cheat" that some folks are hoping for is the ability to run an HDMI 1.4 cable directly to your HDTV from your BD player or cable box to get full 3D, and then use a second HDMI 1.3 output to your receiver to pass audio. That would be a GREAT short-term solution for anyone who has a great receiver and doesn't want to upgrade just because they need HDMI 1.4 pass-through.

Both Sony and Panasonic also have an audio-gear side and the whole industry has been aware of the HDMI 1.4 thing coming this year long before we were talking about it here... so rest assured HDMI 1.4 audio gear is coming soon.

BTW, keep in mind that the reason that manufacturers don't talk about this stuff way ahead of time is because if they did, everyone would stop buying their products! So basically they pretend like nothing's going on, and then all of a sudden when they've ramped up production of the new gear, at some point they leak the new product specs when they feel it's in their financial favor for folks to feel discouraged about buying their old stuff and wait for their new stuff.


Thanks for the heads up man, very informative post Like I said no rush fo rme for a year or 2 to upgrade, but its nice knowing that the next wave is coming.. Also What about Blus being released now ? like Monsters vs aliens/ the final destination, etc.. Would it "work" on my TV actually being able to see 3d , or is that just thrown in as a future addition?
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post #208 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:28 PM
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Im sorry it was a lame thing to say. I know who Sherwood is. Just not a brand you hear much of lately. But hey props on them for stepping up !!!

it is ok, i know you was cracking a joke, myself i was looking for arrows to be slung lol


Looks like Sherwood will be my receiver, unless another company can deliver same at better price

350 msrp should mean 300 or less in stores
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post #209 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:30 PM
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I love the ideal of native 2.35:1 HDTVs and projectors... I wish this trend would hit some front-projectors too which would make it so much more cost effective to go constant-height 2.35!

That would be awesome.. What would the aspect ratio of the TV be tho? instead of 16x9 ?? Is that the 21:9 AR that im seeing talked about on some new "ultra" widescreens?
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post #210 of 1447 Old 01-05-2010, 10:33 PM
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One day people will just have to show up and manufacturers will give the TV's away Amazing $3999. I guess we will wait and see if this happens. If so they will NEVER be in stock, to much demand.
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